NB: THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A TRANSCRIPTION UNIT RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT: BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF MIS-HEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY, IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS ACCURACY. ........................................................................ PANORAMA COPS AND ROBBERS RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 17:04:05 ........................................................................ ROWLATT: Just how safe are we from crime? MICHAEL HOWARD: [address the House] Isn't the simple truth that under this Prime Minister the fight against crime is being lost and crime is out of control. MEMBERS: Yeah. TONY BLAIR: Crime has actually fallen under this government, not risen. CHARLES KENNEDY: In Britain today there are too many victims, too many crimes that are unsolved or indeed not even pursued. ROWLATT: The politicians can't even agree whether crime is rising or falling. [police car chase] ROWLATT: Tonight on Panorama we set out to find the truth about crime in Britain. [successful arrest] ROWLATT: One crucial truth about crime is that Britain is a high crime society. This is West Yorkshire Police's 999 call centre in Wakefield. It receives an average of one call every minute. An estimated 12 million offences were committed in England and Wales last year. That's more crimes per head than almost all of our European neighbours, even more than the US. The fact is that for many people committing crime, grafting, has a seductive allure. JOE & ADAM McCRORY JOE: I mean I've had that buzz grafting, yeah, and there's nothing else that can give you that buzz, that adrenaline rush what you'll get when you're driving and you're taking that chance and you'll get that adrenaline rush, there's nothing what comes up to that. Honestly, there's nothing what can match that feeling, and especially when you get away. You get away and you're sat at home and you see… ADAM: He's been trained up that copper behind you for how many year and you've just dusted him all over. It didn't take me four year training to do that now. I've been in this car 30 seconds, I was born young. It's like yeah! 999 OPERATOR: If you're threatening to kick off with the police then you're going to finish up getting arrested. You need to calm down. ROWLATT: A major Home Office survey estimated that just under 4 million people had committed at least one crime last year which puts constant demands on the police. 999 OPERATOR: So she's got a blooded nose and bruises…. IAN WALKER: [999 response car] Yes 120, we're off to Manningham to report a domestic incident where a brother had started attacking the family and other people. ROWLATT: PCs Ian Walker and Nick Birch are the quick response unit out of Bradford North Police Station in Yorkshire today. It's their job to respond to whatever calls come in. ARESTEE: [escorted by officers] Let me walk still you f***ing pig! BIRCH: I should keep your language down, or I'll arrest you for Section 5 as well of the Public Order Act. He's being arrested for assault. PC IAN WALKER West Yorkshire Police Plus he's continued swearing at police. I've arrested him for Section 5 of the Public Order Act. ROWLATT: The crimes people say matter most to them are the crimes against individuals, this programme will focus on what the police call "the volume crimes". Burglary, theft, vandalism and violent assault. They make up 89% of all crime recorded by the police in Britain. ROXY: What happened was we got a nock on the door about.. between 7 and 8 last night, so I went and opened the door and it was two young lads about 14 to16. The next thing I see was like this blur, and then when I went to check my purse this morning, £80 of it is completely gone. So they were in and out. ROWLATT: Crimes against individuals are also the crimes that the politicians make a priority, even relatively minor crimes ROXY RUTKOWSKYJ Didn't think it would happen to me, but it does, doesn't it. Ahhh… silly me. It's my own fault really, I shouldn't have left my door open. ROWLATT: Does it upset you to know someone has been in here? ROXY: Yes, you feel violated. I hate stealing. You know.. if anybody steals – that's it. I don’t like it. Oh.. I'm getting upset now. Can we cut please. ROWLATT: The people who should know if crime is rising or falling are the police. Until two years ago the police force here in West Yorkshire was seen as failing. People were more likely to become victims of crime here than in almost any other part of the country. West Yorkshire police have been under enormous pressure to improve. Chief Constable COLIN CRAMPHORN West Yorkshire Police We had a culture here that we're all very busy and people were, very busy, running around doing their best, but the public were telling us in no uncertain terms that rates of burglary and auto crime and such like were far too high and that it was unacceptable, and that was right. ROWLATT: To be blunt, Chief Constable, what you seem to be saying is that West Yorkshire was rubbish. CRAMPHORN: Well, your choice of word not mine. I would put it slightly differently. West Yorkshire police were not delivering what the public had a perfect entitlement to expect of West Yorkshire police. ROWLATT: Every morning Superintendent Dave Oldroyd walks Bradford North Police Station. He's in charge of police operations from here. SUPT. DAVE OLDROYD: I always like to look at shoes. It's amazing what you find when you look at shoes. [to office at computer] What are we doing in total numbers overnight ? OFFICER: [at computer] That's crimes unsolved, talking about… OLDROYD: It's many odd years ago, I can't remember anybody asking me about performance. OFFICER: We're in target for robberies. Pilfering you're well in target. Two days to go, so if we have a quiet weekend…. Superintendent DAVE OLDROYD West Yorkshire Police The culture has changed enormously. I think the point is that really around about 2 ½ - 3 years ago we really start to dig into performance big style. It had been coming for a while but it's really snowballed from there. ROWLATT: Mr Oldroyd wants to know the latest crime statistics for his patch. The new culture means he is set performance targets including one for crime reduction. If Bradford North doesn't meet these targets, Dave Oldroyd feels it where it really hurts. OLDROYD: If I don’t hit those targets then I don’t get a pay increase and that's as simple as that. If I do not achieve them and obtain at least a satisfactory level of performance then I will not get a pay increment, it's as simple as that. ROWLATT: They withhold your increment. OLDROYD: They withhold my increment. ROWLATT: His increment depends on people like Joe McCrory and his brother Adam staying out of trouble. ROWLATT: [looking at old photos] Are you in this team? JOE: No, it's Adam plays football… used to do. That's him there with the cup. ROWLATT: Yes, there he is with the cup. Was he in the winning team? Joe's scrapbook begins with cup-winning football. JOE: That's when they won there and got the cup. ROWLATT: So this is when he was still a good boy. JOE: Yes, when he didn't smoke and that, when he could run for miles when he was fit. ROWLATT: It was also before they started offending. Since then they've been convicted of dozens of crimes. Car offences, theft, violent assault and more. So what's this then? JOE: That's when I crashed into that bus with my mate. ROWLATT: That actually made the newspapers. JOE: Yeah. I can't remember a thing about it, me. ROWLATT: And this is what you hit, you hit a bus. JOE: Yeah, that's what we did. ROWLATT: What, full of passengers. JOE: Yeah. ROWLATT: Well you must have been going at some speed because it looks like…. JOE: I were doing about 50-60 mile an hour. ROWLATT: ….half the bus out. Do you feel any guilt at all about having crashed into a bus full of people. JOE McCRORY JOE: I can't remember it.. you know what it is, yeah, I did at first when my mate were writing to me and saying you hurt these… and I still do now really but I can't remember a thing about it. I still feel sorry. ROWLATT: What did your mate say when he wrote to you? JOE: He said oh there were a couple of elderly people on the bus and that. ROWLATT: What, upset by it? JOE: Yeah, just in shock and that, you know what I mean, not injured, just saying: "You idiots" you know what I mean "what you doing coming round at that speed?" or whatever. ROWLATT: So what else is in here? JOE: Just my mates all dying in car crashes. ROWLATT: Who's he? JOE: Scratchy. ROWLATT: Scratchy. JOE: Yeah, they've gone. His real name's Scratch. Everyone called him Scratchy. He could go anywhere, him, and just roll up on different estates. He knew everybody everywhere. He was safe. He was one of them people who you just met and you felt like you'd known him for ages. He were a proper funny character. ROWLATT: And what happened to him? JOE: Died in a car crash. ROWLATT: What happened? JOE: He hit a tree. ROWLATT: Even the death of some of his best friends didn't stop Joe offending. Looking at this, it's quite a journey you and Adam have made, isn't it, from holding up a cup to crashing into a bus. It's quite a big journey. Some people would look at that and say that's a sad story you know. JOE: Sad but… ROWLATT: What do you think? JOE: That's how life goes, isn't it. OLDROYD: The crime seems to be coming down, but it's a percentage of the division. It's usually 40-50 percent in area three, yeah. ROWLATT: So what can police officers like Dave Oldroyd do to stop criminals committing crimes? POLICE OFFICER: [giving Dave report] … make a start then with burglary dwelling. Last week's hot potato was….. ROWLATT: Every Tuesday the force here in North Bradford analyses the crime figures and plots how to drive them down. This week there's some good news. POLICE OFFICER: [continuing] Between the 28th February and the 6th March there's been no burglaries within the Isle area. It's an excellent reduction on the previous week when we'd had 8 offences. ROWLATT: These days there's an even stronger emphasis on the need for the police to reduce crime. Today Dave has identified two people who are hurting his figures. OLDROYD: He's wanted, we understand from this morning's meeting, on a fingerprint for Wakefield, Dave, I've already said, I want that clarifying and him locking up as priority, but stipulating I want a really thorough search doing of his home and premises. DAVE: Sure. OLDROYD: I'm fed up of hearing these two names. I'm absolutely sick of it. I'm sick of them getting bail. They are causing damage to our figures every single week. So all stops out now to put these two out of business. [Police Raid] DS SMITH: I'm D.S. Smith from Toller Lane. I've got a warrant to search the premises. OFFICER: I'm going to caution you. You don’t have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you don’t answer my questions… you want to wait till you're in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence. Get some clothes on please and we'll take you down to the station. OFFICER: Suspicion of burglary. JOE: What, you're locking me up? What did I f***ing do? Don’t start on me. There's a f***ing big camera in my f***ing face. OFFICER: Well are you coming? MAN: Yes, obviously, yer f***ing idiot. F**k off. You f***ing chill out. F**k that! You f***ing idiot! OFFICER: Calm yourself down. MAN: Calm myself. F**k off. Who the f**k are you? OFFICER: You don’t have to answer my question but anything you do say may be given in evidence. Now pack it in. ROWLATT: So listen, what have you got there? OFFICER: It looks like a hydraulic ram, brand new. ROWLATT: A hydraulic ram? Det. Sgt. RICHARD SMITH West Yorkshire Police I found it in the house so.. since we're looking for power tools we've seized it. So next we have to see if we can find where it's come from. [Second Raid] WOMAN: What's this about love? OFFICER: We've got a warrant to search the premises. Listen to this officer who's going to tell you why we're here. WOMAN: What's he doing with cabinet? MAN: Get the f**k out of…. WOMAN: No… go away. [screaming] OFFICER: Calm down. WOMAN: What's going on? MAN: I'm under arrest mum. OFFICER: Under arrest for suspicion of robbery, burglaries taking place on the….11th 2004. ROWLATT: The man they've arrested is a persistent offender. The Home Office estimates that 100,000 persistent offenders commit half of all crime in Britain. The hope is that identifying and targeting these offenders can generate big reductions in crime. MAN: Do you yer f***ing wanker. ROWLATT: Is the lad known to you? SMITH: Yes, we do know him. We deal with him on a regular basis. ROWLATT: And how often is it that you see familiar faces when you do this kind of work? SMITH: We have a number of prolific offenders within the division and we're speaking to them on an almost daily basis. ROWLATT: The police here say targeting persistent offenders has cut crime. And the national figures for crime recorded by the police show that there has been a big fall in the number of burglaries and car crime starting before Labour came to power. Both types of crime have fallen by around a third in the last ten years. So how can the Conservatives claim that crime is rising? They focus on the statistics for total crime recorded by the police in England and Wales starting in 1998. These figures show a significant rise under Labour. The Conservatives also point to the police figures for violence. MICHAEL HOWARD 1st December 2004 On the recorded crime figures, violent crime is up by 83%, a million violent crimes are now committed every year, and gun crime too has doubled. 999 RESPONSE: Are you sure she doesn't want an ambulance… He's actually being attacked now? Just say yes, and I need to know in what way he attacked you. ROWLATT: Wakefield's Westgate is a short drive from Bradford. Dozens of bars and clubs line one half mile stretch of this street. Half of all violent crime involves alcohol, and here on the Westgate the number of violent crimes seems to have exploded. Up from around 80 a year in 1998 to 380 last year. OFFICERS: [in crowded night scene] Just go by reflex, just hang around there, there are one or two hanging around…. ROWLATT: Between five and ten thousand people come here to enjoy the party every Saturday night. Tonight Inspector Mark Truelove has 15 officers to police the area. It's his job to stop people getting hurt. So is there really more violent crime or could there be another reason the violent crime figures have risen under Labour. This man is angry after being ejected from a bar. Until recently, this.. a struggle with police officers might not have been recorded as a crime. It is one of a large number of minor offences - mostly yobbish behaviour - that were reclassified as crimes in 1998, just after Labour came to power. These new crimes almost doubled the number of violent crimes the police record. OFFICER: Get him in the back of the van now. MAN: [struggling with police] Get my shoe! Inspector MARK TRUELOVE West Yorkshire Police He's been given more warnings than I would like. They get one chance to go and I've seen him have several chances. So I gave him a warning. If he swears again he gets arrested for disorderly conduct. He swore at me so he's been arrested. ROWLATT: So the logic of that is that you get in early and you stamp out the violence before it happens. TRUELOVE: Absolutely, yeah. I'd sooner arrest him for disorderly conduct than wait and later on have to deal with an assault where someone gets injured. He's no more trouble to anybody now. ROWLATT: And another change also pushed up recorded crime numbers. In the past the police would have recorded a fight like this as a single crime. Now the number of crimes depends on the number of victims. One crime per victim. OFFICER: [monitoring incident on CCTV] It looks as though the male that has been arrested was the one that was causing the problem but as you now see, there is another male that has been arrested, the two that were fighting. ROWLATT: The Home Office estimates that these changes alone pushed up the total recorded crime figures by 14% nationally. There was another change in 2002. Now, if someone says they've been the victim of a crime, then the police must take their word for it and record a crime, even if there's no evidence. The Home Office calculates this single change led to a further rise in the total recorded crime figures, up another 10%. MAN: …who can't look after himself. ARRESTING OFFICER: Have you? You should have thought about that, shouldn't you. Sergeant Laurie, this man's been arrested for disorderly conduct on Westgate. ROWLATT: Since 1998 when the way the figures are recorded first changed, there has been a massive increase in the number of recorded violent crimes. The Conservatives say they always take recorded crime figures from after the first change. Michael Howard 1st December 2004 On the recorded crime figures violent crime is up by 83% ROWLATT: But this figure doesn't take account of the counting change in 2002. The Conservatives concede that if the Home Office adjustment for this change is made, recorded violent crime would have increased not by 83% but by 46.5% since 1998. And the Home Office disputes that the real trend for violence is sharply upwards. It says that after adjusting for both recording changes, the rest of the rise in violent crime is likely to be largely accounted for by increased police activity and greater willingness of the public to report violent crime. And what do the police think? The Association of Chief Police Officers – ACPO – has told Panorama that it believes that adjusting for the recording changes, recorded violent crime would be broadly stable or have shown a slight fall in the last ten years. So what about total recorded crime? The Tories say they always measure from 1998/99, but again, they are not including the effect of the 2002 change. Michael Howard 1st December 2004 On the recorded crime figures crime fell by 18% when I was Home Secretary and it's risen by 16% under this government. ROWLATT: They now concede that if the Home Office adjustment is made, the rise over 5 years is not 16% but would be 4%. So what do the police say? ACPO has told Panorama instead of rising, over the last 10 years there would have been a significant reduction in overall crime. The Home Office estimate that, with the adjustment, and measuring from the period before the first counting change, total recorded crime has fallen by 8%. How many of those would be violent crime? TRUELOVE: They'll all be classed as violent crime, with the exception of the position of cannabis. ROWLATT: Of course the police aren't the only source of statistics on crime in England and Wales. One of the most authoritative studies of crime in the world, the British Crime Survey tells an even more dramatic story. This survey of 40,000 people in England and Wales shows total crime reached an all time high in 1995. Since then it's fallen every single year. The survey excludes some very serious crime. Murder, sexual offences and crimes against children, but it's otherwise reckoned to be a pretty reliable indicator of trends. Michael Howard hasn’t been using the British Crime Survey figures but he has in the past. 16th July 1999 HOWARD: Last year the British Crime Survey produced its findings for the period 1995-97 and this showed a drop of 14% in crime over that period. The first time ever that the British Crime Survey had recorded a fall in the level of crime, so that was the answer to the doubters, and that fall in crime is the legacy in this area that the Conservative Party left to the present government. ROWLATT: So while there may be an argument over violent crime, the two authoritative sources, the British Crime Survey and the Recorded Crime Figures agree. Crimes that affect people in Britain most often like theft and burglary have fallen significantly in the last ten years. So if these crimes are falling, the key question is why. Could better policing be the answer. Here in West Yorkshire the police don’t just try to catch criminals after they've committed a crime, the police's goal is to stop them committing crimes in the first place. Chief Constable COLIN CRAMPHORN West Yorkshire Police The fear of crime should actually be with criminals who should be looking over their shoulder as to when are the police next going to be arriving knocking on my door, checking on me. ROWLATT: One of the new strategies is disruption, regular visits by officers to the prolific offenders in their area. Officers even eat their lunch or do paperwork outside offenders homes. PC IAN WALKER & NICK BIRCH West Yorkshire Police Well he was in, in the shower, got him out the shower so I've disrupted him. ROWLATT: So he's not a suspect for any crime at the moment. BIRCH: He's not suspect for nothing at the moment so far as I'm aware. ROWLATT: All you know is that he has been… BIRCH: He has been in the past. ROWLATT: A persistent offender. BIRCH: As a persistent offender, so we just come and say hello answer ask him what he's up to and if he's got any problems that… ROWLATT: Because he might say that's harassment, mightn’t he. WALKER: He could do, yeah. I spoke to his mum as well. His mum wasn't too happy about us being here but I guess she must understand that her son is… you know.. involved in more than he should be and.. you know.. we're seen to be doing the job and that's what we're trying to do. ROWLATT: So you'll be back tomorrow, you or some other officers will be back to see him again. BIRCH: Yep. I'd like to say if he's seen on the street today he'll get spoken to again, and he could get spoken to about another five or six times today if he's seen out and about. WALKER: Yes. BIRCH: So, hopefully he'll have clothes on by then. ROWLATT: Did you see him drop his towel? BIRCH: [laughing] Yeah, in front of his mother. ROWLATT: But is it right to visit them repeatedly in the course of a single day without any evidence that they've committed any crime? CRAMPHORN: Well let me turn the question round to you, when you know that that is their pattern of offending behaviour, is it right not to do so? ROWLATT: But there's a danger, isn't there, that the behaviour of the police begins to border on harassment. CRAMPHORN: That's why I make the point about it must be proportionate, it must be within the bounds of the law and it must be within the constraints of the Criminal Justice System. OFFICER: [addressing team] We're going to execute some warrants under the Misuse of Drugs Act. The members of the public on the estate have given us information saying listen, we're fed-up of these houses….. ROWLATT: This is the neighbourhood policing team for Allerton on the edge of Bradford. One in seven officers in West Yorkshire are deployed to these teams, each dedicated to cutting crime in a particular area. This kind of community policing is something all three largest parties are committed to. OFFICER: It's here and it's a side door. The door is actually where that arrow is pointing, so it actually where that arrow is pointing, so entry is from that front end and that goes to an upstairs flat. When we go upstairs – it's quite a nice staircase – the staircase is to the left. I want to put everybody that we find into the lounge straightaway. Okay, that's it folks, down to the car park, into the vehicles please. Sgt PAUL HEPWORTH West Yorkshire Police There's a connection between drugs and crime, and if we can get them off drugs we reduce crime. ROWLATT: There are over a quarter of a million drug addicts in Britain. According to some estimates they're responsible for over half of all theft. Labour, Tories and the Lib Dems plan to increase the effort to tackle drug addiction. [Police Raid] OFFICER: Quick, that's it. [shouts] Police...! Police…! Police – get down. HEPWORTH: Listen ladies and gents, let me tell you what's happening. I'm Sergeant Hepworth from the Neighbourhood Police Team. We've got information from the community of the status of you.. the status of you, smoking drugs, the noises going on, we've witnessed that as we've walked in this evening and we're here to execute a drugs warrant under the Misuse of Drugs Act. ROWLATT: The aid has yielded some children under 16 smoking cannabis. A few doors up, 3 people using heroin has been arrested. HEPWORTH: The low level drugs use leads to criminality. It leads to other forms of crime, it leads to disorder and nuisance and antisocial behaviour. ROWLATT: Whatever the true picture of crime in Britain, most people believe it is rising. The public say they'd feel safer if there were more police on the streets, yet the police now have record numbers of officers, 140,000. The Tories promised 25,000 more over the next 5 years, the Lib Dems 10,000 plus 20,000 police community support officers. Labour proposes no more officers but 20,000 extra PCOs who wear a uniform but don’t have all the powers of regular officers. Community policing puts uniforms where the public want them, on the street, but does it cut crime? ROWLATT: Didn't the audit commission conclude that an officer patrolling the streets would only come within 100 yards of a crime once every 8 years. CRAMPHORN: Yes. ROWLATT: Now the Neighbourhood Policing approach seems to be to pour resources into patrols, community support officers and police officers out on patrol. CRAMPHORN: It's about working with whoever we need to work with in terms of getting into the community, winning that trust, getting the information we need to do a better job, and delivering reassurance. ROWLATT: The police figures show a significant fall in crime on Allerton, but these residents don’t seem convinced. For all this effort that's been put into the estate, your overall impression on whether crime is going up and would be… RESIDENT 1: On the overall estate? ROWLATT: Yeah. RESIDENT 1: Maybe a little bit, gone down a little bit. ROWLATT: And what do you think, Laura? RESIDENT 3: I just think it's stayed the same. RESIDENT 2: I think it's gone in different pockets in different areas, it's with moving them on. They're moving into another pocket. RESIDENT 3: It's different crime that's happening now to what used to happen. RESIDENT 2: And time you move them on they're going to a different area of the estate. ROWLATT: Different crimes, different places but the same amount of crime. And what gives you the impression that it's falling when the other two are saying look…. RESIDENT 1: Because I think that it has fallen at the top, so you know when you're looking at it as a whole… ROWLATT: The average. RESIDENT:… yeah, one third of it has gone down.. you know.. but two thirds might have gone up. ROWLATT: The results of the work of the neighbourhood policing team contribute to the performance figures for the whole Bradford North area. Back at the station will the latest crime figures satisfy Superintendent Oldroyd's boss? Will Dave get his increment? Superintendent DAVE OLDROYD West Yorkshire Police Mr Brear, the Deputy Chief Constable will be coming and going through our performance with a fine toothcomb. He drills right down into the figures. If they're good, he wants to know why they're good. If they're bad, he wants to know why they're bad. ROWLATT: That's going to be a tough meeting, is it? OLDROYD: It is always a tough meeting, yes. Someone's told me that you don’t know you're being performance reviewed unless when you come out your back is dripping wet with sweat. ROWLATT: But there are some problems with the figures. OLDROYD: The figures here show we've hit the burglary target for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 weeks, and then last week we're way up. ROWLATT: The week before the Deputy Chief Constable comes to visit. OLDROYD: Yeah, the worst time to have an increase in burglary. ROWLATT: There may be some blips but the whole year figures are impressive. Robbery down by almost half, car theft by a quarter, burglary by over a third. Dave's prepared a presentation for his boss. OLDROYD: We've tested out tested out crack houses and we've some great results with the DIP – Drug Intervention Plan… ROWLATT: It's rather long. BREAR: Is there a lot more? OLDROYD: Yeah. Are we keeping you awake then? BREAR: There's a big agenda. OLDROYD: Right, okay. Seeing this proactive approach….. ROWLATT: So what's Mr Brear's verdict? DCI PHIL BREAR: Lots of good news given where we were 18 months two years ago but we still have this issue around the level of burglary. Your last weeks have been some of the worst. OFFICER: Our figures show extremely well managed burglary and then for one night, we had 13 attempted burglaries by one individual who decided to go out that night as a one off and commit 13 crimes. Now 13 puts us into that different league. It's a one night blip that occurs that destroys the week's figures. BREAR: Well the county rules are the country rules and if it's the same person, same nights, 13 places, it's still 13 offences. Any progress with the job? OFFICER: There's been a lot of arrests taken place already. The problem with this is that he's going to rely upon scientific evidence. BREAR: That young man or those young men, have they seen a police car? There may have been only one that night. Context, a very good year, we've got a burglary problem still. ROWLATT: Dave Oldroyd is still on target for a rise, but the message is clear, must do even better. Deputy Chief Constable PHIL BREAR West Yorkshire Police I want to reduce it by the most possible, but they can keep reducing it. ROWLATT: Are you going to ask them to deliver 40% again? BREAR: No no, no, that's not realistic. When things were very bad it was easy to get 40% out of it. Things are now quite good. It'll be a challenge to get 20%. ROWLATT: And after that you'd be saying 10%, keep the pressure on but you're asking for smaller reductions. It becomes more difficult. BREAR: Of course it does, yes. But actually it's feasible. You know, there are communities in the UK where burglary is unusual. Now perhaps that's too much to ask for cities, but the current level is not acceptable so we've got to keep bearing down on it. ROWLATT: The police here admit that increasing effort cannot continue to deliver large reductions in crime, and nationally this tough performance management was only introduced after 2001 when crime had already been falling according to the British crime survey for 6 years. Cutting crime clearly hasn't only been about policing, ask a car thief. Over the years Danny has become something of an expert on car security. He says there's a very good reason why car crime has fallen which has nothing to do with the police or any other part of the criminal justice system. We've brought Danny to this scrap yard and have set him a challenge. How long will it take to steal this M reg car? So Danny, that took you just under 2 ½ minutes, about two minutes 22 seconds. Okay? DANNY GALLAGHER Yeah. ROWLATT: Now let me set you another challenge, come over here. Right, take a look at this. This is a Megan. How would you steal a car like this? DANNY: I wouldn't be able to, apart from smash a window you'd be able to get in but there's no point. ROWLATT: Why not? DANNY: Because you can't nick it. ROWLATT: Why not? DANNY: Because it's got a card with a chip. ROWLATT: So without the key… which contains a chip… DANNY: Yeah, you can't start it without a chip. ROWLATT: So the other car you kind of broke in and you started the ignition, you're saying you can't do it on a car like this. DANNY: No. ROWLATT: So what would you do with a car like this? DANNY: Just leave it, I wouldn't even bother. ROWLATT: You'd just walk by. DANNY: Yeah, walk away. ROWLATT: Walk away. DANNY: Yeah. ROWLATT: Home security has been improved too. Houses without security locks and alarms are six times more likely to be burgled than those with them. Since 1997 public money has made over 2 million homes more secure, including many on the Allerton Estate. LAURA: [resident] It's harder to get in that house, since they've redone them, it's harder to get into the houses now so they obviously look for something else to make money. RESIDENT 2: They've put three doors on, even police can't get into them. They have to jack them up with… LAURA: Cos now when you lift the handle up on the door it's got five locks on it, five locks come out, it's not just one key lock on your door anymore, you've got all window locks on your windows. That’s why I think burglaries have dropped. ROWLATT: Laura knows more than most about crime here on Allerton, the father of her young son, Taylan, has been a prolific criminal. She believes another factor has helped drive down crime around here. LAURA CROMPTON It's mainly kids that offend on the estate now. It used to be older people that offended for money, now it seems to be kids offending for fun. ROWLATT: Why are people not offending for money anymore? LAURA: There's a lot of them locked up. ROWLATT: You think partly it's because they've locked up the offenders? LAURA: Yes, definitely. There's a load of them locked up. ROWLATT: The prison population has grown rapidly over the last ten years, up by three quarters since 1993. It is now at a record high; 75,000 people are behind bars. And look at the figures, as the prison population has grown, so crime has fallen. It looks like powerful evidence that prison works. Laura's boyfriend Adam is serving three years for aggravated burglary here at Leeds prison. He'll be out in June. ADAM SIREE It'll be when I'm about 16… 16-15, I started pinching cars and that when I was younger. Then I got involved with drugs with certain people and they were doing like burglaries to support their habit and I got into doing that again. ROWLATT: What kind of drugs were you involved in? ADAM: Crack cocaine, heroin. This one that I'm in for now, the person woke up when somebody was in his bedroom because there was me and someone else. And I can't imagine how it is because I've never been in that situation but I can just imagine it, it isn't nice. ROWLATT: I mean a lot of people watching this wont have any sympathy for you. They'll think you're a toe rag. ADAM: I don’t expect sympathy. I don’t want sympathy. I've got what I deserve and I'm doing what I deserve. ROWLATT: The prison population has grown not because the police are catching more villains but because sentencing has got tougher. Criminals like Adam are more likely to be sent to prison and get longer sentences. So who can take the credit for this change? Crime was close to record levels when in 1993 Michael Howard became Home Secretary. MICHAEL HOWARD Let's be clear – prison works! [Applause] ROWLATT: Under the Tories, prison numbers rose very quickly. 3rd June 1993 HOWARD: Last time in prison? PRISONER: No. HOWARD: Why do you say that? PRISONER: Because it's a way of my own life. HOWARD: Aren't you going to change your way of life? PRISONER: Try to but it's going to be difficult. HOWARD: It can be done. ROWLATT: There were 43,000 prisoners when Michael Howard took office, 60,000 when Labour came to power in 1997. Over the same period there was a sharp fall in crime. Under Labour, prison numbers have continued upwards but more slowly. Up 15,000 in 8 years. Per capita Britain has become the prison capital of Western Europe. But just how important prison is in reducing crime is a matter of dispute. IAN BLAKEMAN Governor, HMP Leeds I think it's too simple to say that we can look a rising prison population and falling levels of crime and say straightaway that the two are directly linked. There are many, many factors that play into that. ADAM: Prison's not hard, prison is fairly easy. What's punishing about having a TV, play station, stereo, what's punishing? The only thing that's bad is the fact that you get locked up on a night time and through the day. That's not bad, it's a bit of peace and quiet. BLAKEMAN: I mean clearly, while people are in custody then they can't be offending in the community. What we have to take account of is what the future impact will be of their return to the community and ensuring that what we're doing is effective. ROWLATT: Prison may cost an average of £36,000 per prisoner per year, but just over half of adult men are reconvicted within two years of release. For young offenders the figure is even higher, three quarters re-offend. While you've been in prison have you done courses to try and address your offending behaviour to try and stop your offending? ADAM: I have done before, that's victim awareness, and that's just basically to see how other people feel when you're in their house or taking their car. Other than that, I've not really put myself forward for anything else because I didn't feel the need that I had to, although would probably have benefited me if I had. ROWLATT: Did the victim awareness course.. did becoming a bit more aware about the effect that you had on people, did that make a difference to your offending? ADAM: It does make you realise what a bastard you had been to them. ROWLATT: Does it stop you offending? ADAM: I wouldn't be here if it did. That's it, when you're out there you don’t think about that at the time. It just goes whoosh… straight through. ROWLATT: Adam's been a prolific burglar. In ten years the number of burglaries recorded by the police is down over a third. Adam doesn't believe that's only because more people like him are inside. If people were burgling now, could they make the same money that you made then? ADAM: No, it's changed now. ROWLATT: What's the difference? ADAM: Like the price value. People can get videos for 50-60 quid, maybe a little bit more, maybe a little bit less, so people aren't going to pay good money for it when they can get it cheap anyway. ROWLATT: So even if you get a decent video recorder…. ADAM: No.. no, cos they can get it anywhere. You can get a DVD player now for 70 quid. ROWLATT: So actually burglary is not as profitable a business as it used to be. ADAM: No, not really. ROWLATT: And what will it take for you not to offend do you think? ADAM: Willpower and determination and the fact that I am sick of this place, prison in general. ROWLATT: But you've said every time you get out you forget all about prison and the temptation's always there. What's going to stop you hopping in the car with your mates just like you did every other time you've been in prison? ADAM: Laura and my son. Hopefully when I get out the only places I'll be is either at work or with them because I've got a lot of time to make up for both. ROWLATT: I mean if you look into your heart, do you think he's going to offend when he gets out? LAURA CROMPTON Adam Siree's partner No, I hope not. I don’t know. I can't say, can I, I don’t know that. ROWLATT: The Conservatives are sticking by the 'prison works' philosophy. They promise 20,000 more places. But though prison may contain, deter and punish, some, even in the prison service, question whether it's the best place to alter the attitudes and behaviour of a lifetime. IAN BLAKEMAN Governor, HMP Leeds Offending takes place in a community, that's where somebody needs to be able to adapt their behaviour, find different ways of behaving, different ways of coping with the challenges that they face. So there's a logic which says that where possible, dealing with people in the community and ensuring that that's where they receive treatment, that's where they receive support, is the best way of ensuring they don’t offend in the future. ROWLATT: The Lib Dems plan to cut the prison population, while Labour forecasts a modest increase. But for every criminal in prison, there are more than two on non-custodial sentences and that's been the case for ten years. All three largest parties want to increase the use of sentences outside prison. So this is your mum's place, is it Joe? JOE: Yeah. ROWLATT: Joe McCrory has been ordered to wear a tag as part of his sentence. It ensures he's at home from dusk till dawn. He also has to attend courses to help him stop offending. ROWLATT: So you've got the tag on your ankle. JOE: Yes. ROWLATT: So this is the receiver, is it…. JOE: Yeah. ROWLATT: .. attached to your tag, and that sends a signal… JOE: It picks it up. ROWLATT: … that sends a signal to… [bleep bleeping sound] JOE: A signal, yeah…. Oh, it's bleeping, only cos you moved it. ROWLATT: Community sentences are a lot cheaper than prison and the results look good. Offenders are less likely to be reconvicted but that's largely because the criminals on community sentences tend to be less serious offenders. Joe claims his sentence is working. JOE: I'm F***ing sick of being stuck in the house all the time. When I'm not stuck in the house on my tag I'm stuck at probation. ROWLATT: So in that sense punishment has been pretty key to stopping you offending. JOE: Yeah, so I can't do anything even if I wanted to do anything, but I don’t want to do it anyway. And if I do, do anything I wont be able to do it again, I'll have to stay in my house all the time or I'll end up in jail and not even be able to go doing that. ROWLATT: So do you think you're going to actually stop offending this time? JOE: Yeah. ROWLATT: And what's the key factor do you think? JOE: I don’t know. Cos I don’t want to offend no more. ROWLATT: And why do you not want to offend? JOE: Because it's a f***ing waste of time, isn't it. It's all it is, a waste of time. I'd rather get a job and earn money that way. If you think about it, you go grafting, you're looking at six months. You go work, you're guaranteed 200 quid a week, so you're alright, aren't you. ROWLATT: So work, in your view, is more profitable than stealing. JOE: Yeah. ROWLATT: Joe is confident he can get casual work. There are more jobs. The economy has performed well in recent years. For offenders a job delivers two things – cash in their pocket and a daily routine, a powerful antidote to the urge to offend. MARK SIDDALL West Yorkshire Probation Board It makes a huge difference. We know it's the single most important factor to reduce crime. It can cut the likelihood by as much as 50%. ROWLATT: So getting offenders jobs reduces crime. SIDDALL: Absolutely. ROWLATT: Adam Siree has got a job lined up when he leaves prison. LAURA: If Adam's occupied then no, he wont offend. It's boredom what makes him do what he does – and money as well. ROWLATT: So what needs to be done to.. what do you think it would take to stop Adam offending? LAURA: For him to get his driving license and to have a steady job. SIDDALL: Most companies say they're carrying vacancies, but they wont employ offenders who possibly have the skills that companies need. ROWLATT: So you know there are vacancies in Bradford. SIDDALL: We know there are lots of vacancies in Bradford. ROWLATT: But the employers are saying we don’t want offenders to fill those vacancies. SIDDALL: That's right. ROWLATT: Over 50% of offenders are unemployed, 20 times the general unemployment rate. It is a classic catch 22. The stigma of having been convicted makes it more difficult for offenders to secure the one thing that's most likely to prevent them offending again – a job. What is clear is that over the last ten years there has been a significant fall among some of the crimes which affect us most often, including theft, burglary and vehicle crime. In that respect Britain has become safer. But it is also true that Britain remains a high crime country. Do you ever feel guilty about the things that you've done, Adam, not at all? ADAM: It just happens, doesn't it. It's a big circle, isn't it. It's a dog eat dog world, isn't it. It's whoever's got biggest teeth. ROWLATT: Millions of people in Britain can expect to fall victim to crime every year. JOE: You go stealing and this and that, and if something got pinched off you, you'd be gutted. Yeah, you would be gutted. You'd be gutted just like everybody is. But at the end of the day you can't do shit about it. ADAM: It's how the world works, isn't it. JOE: Yeah. ROWLATT: Fear of crime remains high not least because we are told by some that violent crime is rising significant, pushing up total numbers. The Home Office and the Association of Chief Police Officers disagree, believing that violent crime is broadly stable or falling. If they are right, then crime overall has fallen in Britain over the last 10 years. Last year 130,000 legal immigrants from Eastern Europe applied to work in Britain. But while some are asking: "Can we cope with them?" others ask: "Can we cope without them?" Next week Panorama examines the impact of Britain's new migrants. _________ www.bbc.co.uk/panorama CREDITS Reporter JUSTIN ROWLATT Camera WILL EDWARDS Sound CHRIS GIBBIANS SIMON REYNELL Online Editor BOYD NAGLE Dubbing Mixer ANDREW SEARS Production Co-ordinator KAREN HOOPER Web Producer ALEX MURRAY Film Research EAMONN WALSH Research KATHLYN POSNER AMANDA VAUGHAN-BARRATT Graphic Design DIMITRI KEVGAS Post Production Co-ordinator LIBBY HAND Production Manager GINNY WILLIAMS Production Executive EMANUELE PASQUALE Film Editors JAMES CALDERWOOD JENNY ROBERTS Assistant Producers JACK ENRIGHT PATRICK BARRIE STEPHEN BARRETT Producer JONATHAN BRUNERT Deputy Editors ANDREW BELL FRANK SIMMONDS Editor MIKE ROBINSON 2 _____________________________________________________________________________________________ Transcribed by 1-Stop Express, 3 Southwick Mews, London W2 1JG Email: panorama@bbc.co.uk