Correspondent: Whose Country Is It Anyway? Tx Date: 22nd June 2003 This script was made from audio tape – any inaccuracies are due to voices being unclear or inaudible 00.00.00 Correspondent Theme Music 00.00.10 Music 00.00.12 John Sweeney Going down; the price of fish. And chandeliers. And repro Louis Quinze chairs. And the urinal, headgear of choice amongst Baghdad's smart set - so long as it comes from one of Saddam's palaces. 00.00.29 Looter Ali Baba! 00.00.31 John Sweeney Ali Baba is Iraqi slang for thief. One whole month after the end of the dictatorship the looters are still at it. 00.00.39 Looter Saddam Ali Baba. 00.00.41 John Sweeney They call Saddam the biggest looter of them all. 00.00.44 Music 00.00.47 John Sweeney He was a thief and a killer on a grand scale. 00.00.50 Music 00.00.53 John Sweeney He's still out there somewhere but no longer the boss. So who is in charge? 00.00.58 Title page WHOSE COUNTRY IS IT ANYWAY? 00.01.06 Looter 1 Voice over These were hidden from us by Saddam while we were starving. 00.01.16 Looter 2 Voice over This is Saddam’s. The dog! The son of a bitch! 00.01.22 Looter 3 Voice over We ask the allies, where is the freedom you promised us? Where is the food, the petrol, the security, the medicines? We are in a complete mess. 00.01.31 Looter 4 Voice over We haven't got anything. We need food. We need security. We don't need muggings. We don't need people stealing our cars. We don't want Ali Babas. 00.01.41 John Sweeney Though these men might know an Ali Baba or two, if pressed. 00.01.46 John Sweeney Enter the Americans. 00.01.50 John Sweeney And so the game begins. It's called ‘try and stop us looting Saddam’. 00.01.57 John Sweeney The rules are complicated. When the Americans fire into the air, the looters just carry on looting. When the Americans level their weapons the Ali Babas put their hands up, for a bit. 00.02.21 John Sweeney The Americans have come. They've stopped the looting, they've fired in the air, they shooed everybody away, and then the Americans have vanished. Oh, and now they're coming back. 00.02.43 John Sweeney This time the Ali Babas are in real trouble - well maybe. The pantomime enrages a well-educated Iraqi. 00.02.52 Iraqi man Subtitles You don't have to let them in, they are making us thieves. Iraqis are not thieves. You are tolerating such an act. You came to liberate this country. Please don't do it. 00.03.07 American soldier I'm angry because you know what's happening? These people are coming in here and they're stealing stuff. And they're not stopping here. They're moving into the neighbourhood and they're stealing from other people, and so everybody that lives around here is afraid because all these people who do not live anywhere close to here are stealing stuff and scaring everybody, and it's not helping anyone. 00.03.28 Iraqi man Subtitle Did you see anyone stealing? 00.03.30 Crowd No. No. 00.03.32 Iraqi man Subtitles You should be ashamed of yourselves. 00.03.33 Man in crowd Subtitles This is our money, our country. Saddam stole from us! 00.03.38 Iraqi man Subtitle Saddam's gone. 00.03.40 John Sweeney While the Iraqis argue amongst themselves about the rights and wrongs of stealing from Saddam, the world's greatest military superpower seems like a teacher who can't control the kids. 00.03.53 American soldier Tell them if they want to go home quickly they will listen. 00.03.58 John Sweeney The American-led coalition won the war but it feels as though they might be losing the peace. 00.04.06 American soldier Please go home in peace. Please go home in peace. 00.04.11 Music 00.04.30 John Sweeney On the other side of the city the lawlessness is less comic. Shots have just rung out. The driver's still alive but only just. This man's blaming the Americans. But the gunman was an Iraqi. 00.04.56 John Sweeney The man's son is trapped inside the car. 00.05.02 John Sweeney Iraqi society has been so atomised by twenty years of Saddam there aren't that many people who will help a dying man. 00.05.10 Shouting and car horns 00.05.25 John Sweeney He's bleeding to death but here's one Iraqi who won't reverse his car, even to save a life. 00.05.45 John Sweeney This used to be a plastic surgery clinic for the very rich. Now it's on the front line of the post-Saddam peace. 00.05.54 John Sweeney The doctors do their best to save him. 00.06.06 John Sweeney They can't. 00.06.13 John Sweeney For too many Iraqis this is the real face of liberation. 00.06.27 John Sweeney The doctors are shocked by how much money was on the dead man, for they earn twenty dollars a month. 00.06.39 Dr Nowaz Hassab Thirty papers one hundred dollars, nine fifty dollars, twelve papers two hundred twenty dollars, nine papers ten dollars, twenty-nine five and twenty-eight one dollars. 00.06.52 John Sweeney That's a huge amount of money. 00.06.53 Dr Nowaz Hassab Yes. 00.06.56 John Sweeney Do you see lots of shooting like this? 00.07.00 Dr Nowaz Hassab Well actually during the war not so much. 00.07.03 John Sweeney And now, after the war? 00.07.05 Dr Nowaz Hassab After the war. Yes. 00.07.06 John Sweeney How many, how many a day like this? 00.07.08 Dr Nowaz Hassab Like this? Well around one the other day… We had… 00.07.16 John Sweeney Oh here they are now. 00.07.17 Dr Nowaz Hassab Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 00.07.18 Widow wailing. 00.07.31 John Sweeney The chaos may not be as murderous as the war, but tell that to a widow ten minutes old. 00.07.36 Widow wailing 00.07.53 John Sweeney Now the dead man's family are threatening Dr Nowaz. His five thousand dollars has been given to the hospital director for safe-keeping. They'll get it back, but his brother wants the money now while the corpse is still warm a few metres away. 00.08.12 John Sweeney Dr Nowaz explains that she's been threatened before - in Saddam's time. 00.08.19 Aston Dr NOWAZ HASSAB I have been attacked three times and one time I find, I found a gun pointed to my face in the emergency room in hospital and they told me that you should treat this man or you will be dead. And I know doctors who are killed inside the hospital because they couldn't save an injured man shooted by somebody else. 00.08.41 Dr Nowaz Hassab Before the war we used to be terrified all the time and living in a horrible situation and now we are still terrified and still living in a horrible situation, but for different reasons. We can't live in this way. You know we are in a jungle now. You can go to the streets and you can see what's happening there, stealing and thieves everywhere, and guns and so on. 00.09.06 Music 00.09.11 John Sweeney Everyone hated Saddam, but it's as if Iraq was hooked on him like junkies on a mind-bending drug. He's gone but his mindset and his thugs are still out there. 00.09.20 Music 00.09.22 John Sweeney Dr Nowaz lives in Baghdad’s slums, so the hospital is the one place where she feels safe. 00.09.31 Dr Nowaz Hassab This is our new hospital by the way. This, this, this should be finished before the war but this is bombed I think in nineteen eighty-one, and they stop because the first war with Iran and then start again in nineteen eighty- eight, and stopped again because of war with Kuwait and now it start again and they stopped also and so on. 00.09.59 John Sweeney Iraq has been at war of one kind or another since Saddam took power. Has the war fought to get rid of him brought a better life? 00.10.07 John Sweeney This man was blinded by the blast from a coalition bomb. 00.10.15 John Sweeney Baghdad's in chaos so people are beginning to get very angry. 00.10.26 Iraqi man Voice over Seven of us were injured. 00.10.28 Dr Nowaz Hassab Seven of his family are injured in this accident. 00.10.32 Iraqi man Voice over The last one is still in hospital, but all of them had major operations. Where's the Red Cross? Who did this? Kuwait? America? Saddam? I want to know. If they're just filming we don't want them here. We need the Red Cross and I want to know who did this to my sons. 00.11.15 Dr Nowaz Hassab I'm not against America, but I think that American forces could do much more than just watching our people killing each other. I'm sure that they can do much more. Of course I know that to fix everything in this country will take a long time. 00.11.38 John Sweeney Someone's being rude about corruption at the Health Ministry. There was no graffiti under Saddam. If any appeared people were shot. Terror ruled; a terror institutionalised by the Ba'ath Party's control of every ministry. 00.11.51 John Sweeney With the health service barely functioning, the Americans need to find a new Health Minister, but the only people with any experience served Saddam. They've squared that circle by appointing a man who they say has renounced his past. Now at last the health service can be put back on its feet. 00.12.09 American spokesman To my right, Dr Ali Shenan, who is the acting ministerial supervisor for the Ministry of Health. 00.12.19 John Sweeney Dr Ali Shenan was number three in the old Health Ministry. 00.12.25 American spokesman Dr Ali Shenan's name came up as a, as a respected and courageous doctor and administrator. Association with the previous regime is not necessarily a reflection on one's character, and when I looked at the character and asked those people who had dealt with Dr Ali Shenan's character; again they assured me that he was the man for this position. 00.12.47 John Sweeney Some Iraqi doctors beg to differ, for they think Dr Ali Shenan is one of Saddam's boys. At first none of them would dare to speak on camera, and then two surgeons said, okay we'll talk. 00.12.59 John Sweeney What do you feel about the Americans appointing a Ba'athist as the new Minister of Health? 00.13.05 Surgeon 1 It's very wrong decision. They asked us they want to get Saddam Hussein again back, so we must change these bad people. We reject them; we resist this, we will resist this, this is time for freedom. 00.13.22 Surgeon 1 I'm sorry to tell you this. First we will be disappointed about American. Second we are disappointing about our future and we try to resist this by every means. We refuse any Ba'ath members who came back. 00.13.37 Surgeon 2 So I suggest they do, they appoint the same Ba'ath members as the leader. So they did, they do nothing for us. They are cheating us. 00.13.49 John Sweeney Are you saying the Ministry of Health under Saddam including Ali Shenan was corrupt? 00.13.53 Surgeon 2 All the members, I have nothing personal with Ali Shenan. I told all the members of the Ba’ath, all of them are liars, cheaters, thief, all of them with no exception. 00.14.04 Surgeon 1 Nothing is good in Ba'ath Party nothing. Absolutely nothing. But you must get change. Our people died in the street. American people died when they liberate our country, okay. And so they must set in real change. 00.14.18 Music 00.14.21 John Sweeney Their decision to speak out is a small act of liberation. Others say more, that Dr Ali Shenan was part of the corrupt system which held back medicines deliberately, punished honest doctors, and neglected public health so that Iraqi children died in their thousands. 00.14.39 John Sweeney To get the job Dr Ali signed a piece of paper denouncing the Ba'ath Party, so will the new man denounce his old master in public? 00.14.47 John Sweeney You've signed this here, sir; do you denounce the Ba'ath Party? 00.14.52 Dr Ali Shenan The question is not specific, not precise. 00.14.54 John Sweeney It's precise enough for me. 00.14.55 Woman in crowd It’s very precise. Sorry, it’s very precise. It’s a yes or no question. 00.14.58 Dr Ali Shenan …you speak about… 00.15.00 John Sweeney It's a yes or no question. Here it is in Arabic, so in English do you denounce the Ba'ath Party? And in Arabic, what is the question in Arabic? Do you denounce the Ba'ath Party? In English, in Arabic. 00.15.15 Dr Ali Shenan The question is not… 00.15.17 John Sweeney A strict one. 00.15.18 Dr Ali Shenan A strict one. 00.15.19 John Sweeney Right. 00.15.19 Dr Ali Shenan It is not correct question. 00.15.21 John Sweeney So… 00.15.23 Dr Ali Shenan The ideology, the ideology contains something good, so we are speaking about ideology at that time. 00.15.29 John Sweeney The ideology contains something good. 00.15.32 Dr Ali Shenan As time went… 00.15.34 John Sweeney Which bit? 00.15.36 Dr Ali Shenan You ask me a lot of question, a lot of discussion so you believe that. 00.15.41 John Sweeney Which part of the Ba'ath ideology was good? The bit about torture? The bit about mass graves? The bit about corruption? The bit about withholding of medicines to people who were dying, deliberately? Which bit? 00.15.55 Dr Ali Shenan There is policy of system, you see, there is something about the ideology, so if you know that… 00.16.02 Woman Excuse me, sir. I would really like to help him out the door, thank you so much. 00.16.06 John Sweeney But the simple question is… 00.16.08 John Sweeney The woman coming to the rescue of Saddam's minister is an American military officer. 00.16.16 John Sweeney And now another uniformed American officer leads the Ba'athist away. He's even holding his hand. 00.16.24 John Sweeney The launch of the new Health Minister hasn't gone entirely to plan. Say what you like about Saddam, he knew how to handle a free press. 00.16.34 John Sweeney Okay. 00.16.35 American soldier Let him go, let him go. 00.16.37 John Sweeney Do you denounce the Ba’ath Party? 00.16.39 John Sweeney A few days later the Americans announced the resignation of Dr Ali Shenan. 00.16.45 John Sweeney It was a small victory for the doctors who dared to speak out against him. But a disaster for the Americans. Getting Iraq on its feet is no picnic. 00.17.00 Music 00.17.04 John Sweeney The Americans are the new power - sort of. But there is a gulf between them and an Arab nation which, however divided against itself, has always hated foreign occupation. 00.17.14 Music 00.17.20 John Sweeney Since the war ended more than forty Americans have been killed, and many more Iraqis. The Americans believe they are liberators; some Iraqis aren't convinced. 00.17.30 John Sweeney We have come across people who have said; What are the Americans doing? There’s no order, there's no security. Things were more, were more ordered under Saddam. 00.17.41 Aston Lieutenant PAUL MYSLIWIEC US Army 3rd Infantry Division Things were definitely more ordered under Saddam, and I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be surprised if the first time they appreciated what the coalition has done for them is one of them, was when one of them slipped up and said something in public to the detriment of one of the government officials and then as their friends gasped in horror and waited for the bullet to come it just didn't. 00.18.01 Lieutenant Paul Mysliwiec And then someone else cautiously ventures an opinion that's his own opinion and not the opinion he got on government TV and everyone waits for the crack of the rifle or the chop of the sword and it just doesn't come. 00.18.12 Lieutenant Paul Mysliwiec And, and, and maybe then they can, they can appreciate some of the freedom they've been given that we have back home. And if that moment never occurs for them that's fine, but it's there, it’s there for the taking. 00.18.26 Music 00.18.32 John Sweeney In Saddam City, Baghdad's slum of two million people, there isn't much sense of liberation. This is home to the Shia, the underdogs of Iraq who actually form the majority people but were repressed by Saddam's Sunni minority. 00.18.46 John Sweeney Thousands died over the years here because of his neglect of public health. The rubbish wasn't collected, the slum population grew bigger and bigger, the sewage wasn't treated. After the liberation nothing has improved. You can't eat freedom; you can eat rubbish. 00.19.03 Music 00.19.06 John Sweeney Even so, now at least the Shia people of the slums can begin to talk about what they've been through. 00.19.21 John Sweeney This looks like something out of the Middle Ages. It was found at the less than medieval Olympic Centre, run by Saddam's son, Uday Hussein. 00.19.30 John Sweeney It doesn't look as if it was just for show. 00.19.34 Iraqi man To feel, to feel the pain. 00.19.36 John Sweeney To torture them. 00.19.37 Iraqi man Yes, yes. 00.19.40 John Sweeney Everybody in this neighbourhood knows someone who'd been tortured or who had disappeared. 00.19.47 John Sweeney So it could be acid, it could be chemicals, it could be boiling water. You lock the body in there; the guy is trussed. In Saddam's time were people taken from this area? Were they tortured? Were they imprisoned? Yah. 00.20.08 Iraqi man Yes. 00.20.09 John Sweeney How many? A small number? Five? Ten? 00.20.12 Iraqi man Big, big. 00.20.13 John Sweeney How many? 00.20.14 Iraqi man Many thousand. 00.20.18 John Sweeney Two brothers, Fareed and Haidar Minati told me what happened to their family. 00.20.25 John Sweeney Five Minati brothers were taken, three after the uprising against Saddam in ninety-one, one in eighty- seven and one in eighty-one. After the first disappearance their father had a heart attack and died. The two surviving brothers had to stay silent. 00.20.42 John Sweeney And this is the first time that you’ve been able to talk about this since the statue falling. 00.20.50 Fareed Minati Voice over Anyone who spoke out lost his head. It was impossible to speak the truth. 00.20.56 Music 00.20.59 John Sweeney This boy's father was taken before he was born. The twelve year-old has no idea where he or any of his uncles are. The difference the Americans have made is that now the Minatis can mourn their five men who vanished off the face of the earth. 00.21.16 Aston FAREED MINATI Voice over Under Saddam if anyone showed any opposition towards the government their house would be singled out and there would be a black mark against them. 00.21.25 Fareed Minati Voice over Visit any secret police office, we have seen it for ourselves, every security office had a file on us. Even Party headquarters had a file saying this family has a black mark against it. For as long as Saddam was in power we were always a target. 00.21.42 John Sweeney The secret police were happy to take whoever they could find. One night Haidar was the only man at home. 00.21.52 Aston HAIDAR MINATI Voice over Fifteen or twenty of them came rushing in and immediately searched the whole house. But all they found were some books, a few religious books about our Sunni brothers and about the Shia faith. Then one of the men said, they have a religious library here, sir. 00.22.13 Haidar Minati Voice over They treated me very badly. They dragged me away from my family; the women were crying. They pushed the women away and threw me in the car. 00.22.21 Music 00.22.27 John Sweeney Haidar Minati was taken here. It's a torture centre, custom-built, in the heart of Saddam City serving the local community. There was a place like this for every neighbourhood under the old regime. 00.22.39 Music 00.22.46 John Sweeney To muffle the sounds of the screams at night the walls were soundproofed with Styrofoam. 00.22.51 Music 00.23.05 Haidar Minati Voice over They begin by hitting you. They hit you with a thick stick. We all knew the type of stick - it was just like a pickaxe handle. Have you seen one? It’s just like that. They beat you with a thick stick, and then if you don't confess they hang you from the ceiling like a carcass. If you still refuse to confess they have other methods. They beat you on the soles of your feet. They call it Al Falaqa. 00.23.34 Haidar Minati Voice over Then they wire you up to an electric telephone. So they let me go and the officer in charge said to me, you're so happy to be released but I promise I'll have you back in here and execute you. 00.23.49 Music 00.23.52 John Sweeney The documents that litter the ground reveal the bureaucratic nature of murder. This letter says so- and-so has been executed and his family are not to be notified. 00.24.01 Music 00.24.05 John Sweeney You father vanishes and you're not to know what happened to him - ever. 00.24.09 Music 00.24.13 John Sweeney Haidar and his brother Fareed have found a trail of paper but it leads nowhere. 00.24.21 Fareed Minati Voice over After the liberation we found some documents saying he’d been executed but others saying he was abroad and others that he was in the marshes. The security people themselves have several versions of what happened to Farsi but most of them say he was executed though we never found a body. 00.24.37 Fareed Minati Voice over It was the same with Mohammed. They told us he'd been executed and they gave us a death certificate, but there was no body. 00.24.49 Music 00.24.53 John Sweeney The missing will have ended up in a place like this. It's a rubbish dump. A farmer would see headlights at night and in the morning there would be another heap of freshly dug earth. 00.25.05 Music 00.25.12 John Sweeney Here just three corpses - a man, a woman and the last bones to be dug out are far too small for an adult. 00.25.18 Music 00.25.23 Iraqi digger Subtitles It must be a family, there's a child with them. 00.25.32 John Sweeney They believe two hundred and fifty people lie buried in this one dump, and three hundred thousand are missing across the whole of Iraq. No one knows who this family was. 00.25.43 Music 00.25.55 John Sweeney Saddam City has got a new name. It's been called after a Shia Imam who defied Saddam and was assassinated in ninety-nine. On the billboards of Baghdad it's goodbye Saddam, hello Imam Sada. 00.26.14 John Sweeney This is a funeral for a much younger cleric, a disciple of Imam Sada. He was murdered by the regime two years ago. Only now has his body been dug up from a secret grave. 00.26.26 John Sweeney The Shia clerics in the slum are out in force. Saddam never broke the power of the mosque. In today's power vacuum they're beginning to call the shots, demanding Sharia law and that women must wear the veil. Already alcohol sellers are being shot. 00.26.46 John Sweeney So how will the Imams get along with the new masters? A war between the Shia faithful and the Americans hasn't started yet and may never happen but you can sense the possibility hanging in the air. 00.27.01 Man with megaphone Subtitles America, what's happened to our country? America is the mother of terrorism. 00.27.14 John Sweeney The Imams want an Islamic Iraq, the Americans a secular pro-Western democracy. 00.27.22 John Sweeney The two dreams don't appear to get on. 00.27.42 John Sweeney Back in Sada City, Fareed Minati's gratitude to the Americans is giving way to contempt. A rare sighting of the American troops for Fareed. The doctrine of forced protection may save American lives but it boils down to ‘don’t get out of your vehicles’. It's a drive-by occupation. 00.28.02 John Sweeney The Americans' no-risk mindset means that they're slow to take control of the streets. Even the local bin lorry is now being used for private enterprise. 00.28.14 John Sweeney Its squeaky-clean insides are good for dropping off looted office furniture. 00.28.21 John Sweeney It's certainly not picking up rubbish. 00.28.25 John Sweeney The very basic things that people like Fareed expect from government, for the streets near his home to be clean and safe, aren't happening here. 00.28.37 Fareed Minati Voice over Signs of the old weariness and cruelty are now all over the place. For example you can see the rubbish piling up and people wandering around with no jobs. You see many problems around here, social and human needs and they're not being addressed. 00.28.52 Fareed Minati Voice over If this situation continues it could be worse than under Saddam. People had to keep quiet then, but nobody's going to keep quiet now. So there's a chance things could get nasty, particularly in this area because people have been oppressed and are poor and thirsty and hungry. 00.29.12 John Sweeney For Fareed Minati, whose family lost so much under Saddam, the freedom brought by the Americans means that he can now put up a new poster in his shop toasting the Sada group of Imams. 00.29.23 John Sweeney It's democracy, but not as the Americans know it. 00.29.28 John Sweeney But there is a softer Islamic alternative to the hard- line fundamentalists of Sada City. 00.29.35 Music 00.29.36 John Sweeney Iraq's most moderate Islamists were forced into exile in Iran by Saddam. But they had a rotten homecoming. The Americans rocked up, dynamited two safes, blowing out the house windows and damaging four cars, trashing their new HQ. 00.29.52 John Sweeney Not for the first time Uncle Sam had got it wrong. They'd raided SCIRI, the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, and the country's largest political party. 00.30.04 SCIRI member 1 Voice over They came charging in as if they were acting in a war film. The Americans just don't understand the nature of Saddam's regime, the way it lies. Someone convinced them that we were a bunch of terrorists who were frightening people, that we'd taken this house by force. But it's not true. This house belongs to one of our group. 00.30.37 John Sweeney And the Americans came in? 00.30.40 John Sweeney They'd arrived with one of Saddam's goons who accused SCIRI of stealing his house. He neglected to mention that he'd stolen the house from a SCIRI supporter twenty years ago. The Americans had got the wrong end of the stick. 00.30.53 John Sweeney Nor did they knock. 00.30.57 SCIRI member 2 Voice over It was like an attack. They were screaming as loud as they could. I can't remember how many there were but one group came rushing in, their weapons pointed at us shouting; sit down, sit down. We were shocked. We didn't know what to do, what was happening. 00.31.23 John Sweeney Aha. The tuff-tie block. This is how to handcuff an Imam, with the instructions in American. "Slide the block down until it is snug to the prisoner's wrists. After snugging as an added locking feature make a simple overhand knot as close to the block as possible with the excess tail of the braid." 00.31.45 John Sweeney "We designed them so that there is a reasonable margin of forgiveness. Therefore it is almost impossible to cut off circulation at the wrists." Ah, this is how to make friends with the Iraqi opposition. 00.31.58 John Sweeney And this is democracy-building in practice. 00.32.06 John Sweeney So did the Americans just do this to you? 00.32.11 SCIRI member 2 Voice over No, to all nineteen of us. 00.32.15 SCIRI member 2 Voice over This was all damaged as you can see. It wasn't like this before. 00.32.20 John Sweeney The American unit confiscated more than a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in cash. 00.32.27 John Sweeney They gave a hundred thousand dollars back, so fifty thousand dollars is still missing. 00.32.34 John Sweeney One of SCIRI's top men, Dr Adel Mehdi tried to tell the Americans that he's met their boss, the Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz at the Pentagon. But they tied him up and gagged his mouth with tape. 00.32.47 John Sweeney Nineteen of SCIRI's leaders, including an Imam, were held overnight without food or water. 00.32.54 Aston Dr ADEL ABDUL MEHDI SCIRI We said, what you are doing will present Americans as occupiers, not liberators. We are one of the most important groups, opposition groups in the country. When people will hear about this, this will cause you a lot of problems. 00.33.16 Music 00.33.19 John Sweeney They were let go and they got an apology, which is not how Saddam would have done it. But American units keep arresting their followers. 00.33.26 Music 00.33.28 John Sweeney SCIRI believes the Americans promised them a role in government, but now they've been sidelined. And SCIRI's Iranian backers certainly worry the Americans. Is SCIRI as moderate and democratic as it claims? 00.33.41 Music 00.33.45 John Sweeney Many people in the West have become disillusioned with many Islamic countries. To this date there isn't a properly functioning democracy in the entire Islamic world. Will Iraq… 00.33.58 Dr Adel Abdul Mehdi You shouldn't blame Muslims for this only. You have to blame also Western for that. When they try to dictate things. When they try to topple or to stop Muslims from expressing themselves. You have to blame them also. You cannot blame only Muslims for that. 00.34.26 Crowds chanting 00.34.33 John Sweeney This is how SCIRI supporters express themselves. 00.34.36 Crowds chanting 00.34.51 John Sweeney The party's not for SCIRI's leader, Ayatollah Hakim, who’s still in Iran but just a little warm-up for his younger brother. 00.34.58 Crowds shouting 00.35.03 John Sweeney The Shia make up two thirds of the population, so a democratic Iraq will be a Shia-led Iraq. SCIRI doesn't want to create an Islamic state, they say. 00.35.14 Crowds chanting 00.35.21 John Sweeney After decades in exile some of Dr Adel's dreams are coming true. Saddam is out of power and soon Ayatollah Hakim will be coming home. But after so long out in the cold they're not going to be swept aside by the Americans. 00.35.38 John Sweeney The Ayatollah's brother spells out the message. 00.35.42 Ayatollah Hakim's brother Subtitles As we have said many times before… the sons of the Iraqi nation will not become involved… with any government forced upon us. We will not accept it. We must form a national Iraqi government. One that believes in and respects Islamic beliefs. A government that respects the Iraqi people. 00.36.21 Music 00.36.27 John Sweeney Before the war the US-led coalition promised SCIRI and the other anti-Saddam parties a seat at the table, then elections. 00.36.34 Music 00.36.36 John Sweeney Now it's offering much less - an authority chosen by the Americans, leaving SCIRI sitting on their hands. 00.36.45 John Sweeney Instead of engaging with the grave problems facing Iraq, SCIRI is setting up in Baghdad's old Stamp and Coin Club. 00.36.53 John Sweeney So; the Americans haven't arrested you again? 00.36.55 Dr Adel Abdul Mehdi No, not me, not me, but some of our people, yes. 00.36.59 John Sweeney How many? 00.37.00 Dr Adel Abdul Mehdi Oh, ten, twenty, thirty. 00.37.05 John Sweeney Why are they doing this? 00.37.06 Dr Adel Abdul Mehdi I don't know. Maybe they don't know what they are doing. 00.37.10 John Sweeney But they know that you are the Iraqi opposition. They know you’re opposed to Saddam. 00.37.13 Dr Adel Abdul Mehdi Yes, but, but as we heard now in Iraq there are different leaders. 00.37.22 John Sweeney Frankly, do you think that the Americans are being stupid at the moment? 00.37.29 Aston Dr ADEL ABDUL MEHDI SCIRI They were not really very intelligent. They are still working as a big body but with little intelligence. They are trying, they are experimenting things, we are not a laboratory, we are a people with a structure, they have to do it in the right way. Otherwise they will break things. 00.37.55 Singing 00.37.59 John Sweeney If the Americans are going to ignore the moderate Shia, why should they remain moderate? 00.38.05 John Sweeney Najaf, the Shia's holy city, is awash with humanity for SCIRI's big day, when its leader the Ayatollah Hakim comes home from Iran. 00.38.14 Crowds shouting 00.38.19 John Sweeney The pressure of people is intense, frighteningly so. 00.38.23 Crowds shouting 00.38.33 John Sweeney It's scenes like this that the Americans seem to want to wish away. This isn't happening. This isn't part of the liberation plan. 00.38.43 Dr Adel Abdul Mehdi This is an emotional moment; that's for sure. We were waiting for this moment since twenty years to see Ayatollah Hakim back because being back to the country means a lot of things. Means that Iraq is now liberated. Means that Saddam Hussein is no longer the ruler of this country. Mean that we have direct contact with our people. 00.39.14 John Sweeney But the Americans, they're actually frightened of Iraq becoming a new Iran. And isn't that what you're going to do; the moment you get your hands on the levers of power; you're going to turn this place into a theocracy like Iran. 00.39.26 Dr Adel Abdul Mehdi No, we understand their feelings, and we are also a practical movement who takes into consideration all the circumstances internally and internationally. We want the interests of our people. That's why we are not calling for an Islamic state. 00.39.52 John Sweeney But now fundamentalists loyal to the harder line Sada clerics from the Baghdad slums invade the party as Hakim is giving his big speech. 00.40.03 John Sweeney The Sada people want an Islamic state and they won't let the moderates like SCIRI or the Americans get in the way. 00.40.10 John Sweeney Already one Imam has been killed by the Sada men. Could it be Ayatollah Hakim's turn next? His security is worried stiff. The Ayatollah is rushed out; away from the Sada invaders. 00.40.33 John Sweeney Back in Sada City, Fareed and Haidar Minati are struggling to make ends meet. There's no electricity and little water. Prices are going up; everyone's running out of money. 00.40.45 John Sweeney America needs to deliver work and clean water. In the meantime their mosque is stepping in to fill the gap. 00.40.56 Haidar Minati Voice over America hasn't hurt us enough yet for a jihad to happen. It's a matter of time. We're still waiting to see all the changes that the coalition forces promised to deliver. 00.41.14 John Sweeney Friday prayers in Sada City. For the Minati brothers and their friends, there's no question of them not turning up. 00.41.22 John Sweeney It’s only here that you can begin to feel the weight of the fundamentalist Sada clerics. Saddam kept them down by terror, an option not available to the Americans. 00.41.37 Haidar Minati Voice over The time of oppression is over. We won't accept another oppressor. America came here supposedly to liberate the Iraqi people. We are waiting to see if there are changes. If there are no changes then they will receive a first warning, then a second warning and a third warning. But if the situation gets worse then we must have a jihad. We will wait for the mosque to order it. 00.42.00 Music 00.42.03 John Sweeney Nobody was there to guard Baghdad's Telecom Tower, so looters set it alight. Another bit of Iraq goes up in smoke, and making a phone call becomes impossible. Iraq is going backwards, Saddam's cruelty replaced by an incoherent alien presence. Government of a kind has given way to a void. 00.42.23 Music 00.42.29 John Sweeney The idea of an Islamic takeover frightens many ordinary Iraqis who hated Saddam but don't want to abandon their old secular freedoms. Do you stay or do you go? 00.42.42 Dr Nowaz Hassab I'm afraid from what they are thinking of, from the way of thinking. They go to the mosque to pray, and they are listen to the Imam of the mosque on the speech of Friday for example. So this is the only, this is the only way to get ideas inside their mind. 00.43.09 John Sweeney Life is freer for Dr Nowaz now. She can speak her mind for the first time in her life, but she's afraid of the power of the Imams, of having to wear a headscarf, of the chaos. She's seriously thinking about leaving Iraq. 00.43.23 Dr Nowaz Hassab There was no real rules before the war, except for money and for power. 00.43.31 John Sweeney Is that still so, now? 00.43.33 Dr Nowaz Hassab No, no. There are no rules at all. 00.43.36 End music 00.43.44 Voice over For more information about tonight’s programme please visit our web site at: www.bbc.co.uk/correspondent Credits 00.43.46 Reporter JOHN SWEENEY Dubbing Mixer CLIFF JONES VT Editor JOE BENTLEY Graphics Design STEVE ENGLAND Aston Operator TINA JAGGER Production Team JULIA DANNENBERG SARAH EVA MARTHA O’SULLIVAN AGNES TEEK Production Manager JANE WILLEY Unit Manager SUSAN CRIGHTON Film Research NICK DODD Picture Editor ROBERT MOORE Produced and Directed by FRANK SMITH Deputy Editor DAVID BELTON 00.43.56 Voice over Correspondent will be back in a month's time. 00.44.10 CORRESPONDENT 00.44.11 Editor KAREN O’CONNOR © BBC MMIII 00.44.16 End BBC Correspondent 1 1