School discipline - what's to be done?

School truancy figures in England are up and a recent report into secondary school discipline showed that levels of bad behaviour were on the increase.

William Hague has criticised the government's record on school discipline saying that Whitehall interference is preventing teachers from bringing proper discipline to Britain's schools.

Labour say they have invested £131 million in improving discipline and preventing truancy. School exclusions which peaked under their administration have now fallen dramatically.

The Conservatives support tougher punishment for truants and have promised parents "discipline, standards and choice" in schools.

The Liberal Democrats say individual behaviour plans should be introduced for problem children as exclusion orders only make the pupil concerned feel more of an outcast.

How can the poor discipline in schools in England be reversed? Are exclusion orders a good idea for problem children?

This debate is now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.

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Your reaction

Bad behaviour has both social and academic consequences. Schools, at all stages, are increasingly judged by their 'test results'. Disruptive children have a long-term negative effect on overall class performance. Reducing class sizes was an issue. Reducing class disruption is a bigger issue and if tackled effectively would produce much improved academic performance.
John, Manchester

If £131 million has really been spent on exclusions, exactly how was this spent? Does it include the cost of the police truant snatch squads that some councils use? and at the end of the day has it made any difference? We need to reduce the drain on our resources, stop pampering convicted criminals and get the welfare spongers off their backsides. Restore the old borstal and approved school services, avoid using do-gooder social workers to run them, decide whether prisons are for education and reform, or for punishment, and get the UK back to work.
Joffan Prenderghast, London

If bad behaviour in schools was dealt with by a separate department of non-teaching professionals as used to be the case in France, teachers would have more opportunity to get on with the job of teaching and morale would improve.
Hilary, Aylesbury

Teachers are expected to be educator, councillor, social worker, police officer and arbitrator every day

Jamie, London, UK

I'm a graduate scientist with a decade of research experience who is close to finishing their PGCE. Come September, I'll be on the front line at a bog standard comprehensive in London. I did my placements in a comprehensive and a church school, and the discipline difference couldn't be more marked. The difference? Parental support. Kids are kids, as surely as John is John: if he can't control his temper out on the streets, why should teenagers be expected to do so in school? In the classroom, learning assistants make a big difference - they really are the unsung heroes of the education system. You couldn't imagine an NHS without nurses, yet teachers are expected to be educator, councillor, social worker, police officer and arbitrator every day.
Jamie, London, UK

They should stop bullying in schools, but they don't do anything. It is not nice. I know because I was bullied.
Alan, Ripley, England

There are kids in my school who ruin every lesson we are in

Steve, Bristol

Why can't we get rid of the troublemakers from lessons? There are kids in my school who ruin every lesson we are in. That doesn't mean all the teachers are useless. They give up their breaks and lunches and after school time to help me and my friends when they have had to spend all lesson time being sworn at by kids and things like that. I want to learn. I guess the only way to get some attention in class is to be as bad as the few who take up all the time because they think it is funny and a big joke to try to make a teacher cry, or bully others right from the first minute of the first lesson to the last minute of the last lesson.
Steve, Bristol

Good discipline is a combination of good teacher control, respect for the school rules, respect for each other and finally and most importantly, support from parents. Beating children does nothing to address the reason why they misbehave. It only relieves the frustration of the adult. Behaviour breaks down when children lose respect for teachers and other adults in school. No amount of beating is going to change this. I agree that disruptive children should be removed from class. After all, the rights of the other children to learn must not be threatened by the actions of one individual.
Mark Colburn, Manchester, UK

A good child is not born it is raised

Atinuke Isamah, London,

The problem of badly behaved children and juvenile delinquents in the UK is finally coming to a head. The family and home as we used to know it no longer exists. This is as a direct result of economic pressures that mean that more and more parents spend time trying to make ends meet. Children are deprived of parental care and guidance from an early age, and little problems with behaviour that could be nipped in the bud go un-noticed until it is too late. Employers should give parents the option of working shorter hours with less days for annual leave or the option of forgoing pay rises in favour of shorter working hours within reason. A good child is not born it is raised, the government would do well to give parents the support they need to do this all important job, so our children can be better than we are.
Atinuke Isamah, London, England

Formal corporal punishment by belt or cane is not acceptable in our "civilised society". However, the young are rarely receptive to reasoned argument at the moment of indiscipline, which explains why the slap was used. There is evidence for its evolution in the higher mammals - e.g. if a lion cub is being annoying, he receives a whack from an adult lion. Perhaps this is an example of "animal rights" that should be restored to humans, in order to put the "civil" back into our society.
Philip Byford, Hemel Hempstead, England

Teachers who cannot control classes should not be teachers

A Craig, Wirral

Throwing more and more money at Education (or Health or the Police) is not the answer. All that happens is that we get the same poor standards but at higher cost. Whilst discipline is lacking and unsupported by society performance will continue to decline. Teachers who cannot control classes should not be teachers. Control is essential. Much better selection of staff is urgently needed. It may be better to reduce the subjects in the curriculum and concentrate more on Maths/English. But Governments must stop interfering once a system is in place. Give the teachers power once again and let them get on with it. The Head Teacher is the one in charge and responsible for performance.
A Craig, Wirral

Although I agree that there are some pupils and parents who will not take responsibility for their behaviour, as a secondary school teacher and a parent I do not agree that they are entirely to blame. The main problem is lack of respect for education itself. Not surprising when the National Curriculum caters for only 80% of the student body, when the league table system tells us that anyone not attaining 5 C+ grades at GCSE is worthless (45% of the students). Stop saying that we should beat children who are unhappy with the educational system we provide and start thinking about giving them an experience they can respect.
Nancy, Northampton UK

Just bring back the cane and make a start not only with disruptive school pupils but with all the do-gooders

Darren Parmenter, Spain

I've never read so much politically correct rubbish in all my life! Just bring back the cane and make a start not only with disruptive school pupils but with all the do-gooders in society that have ruined Britain.
Darren Parmenter, Spain

I was brought up on a council estate with a single parent. I believe many of the 'do-gooder' attitudes come from people who have never experienced such a lifestyle but think they know what is best for 'poorer people'. I find it patronising and sickening to think that these people think they know what is best.
Johnny Houston, Cambridge, England

Both Labour and the Conservatives are obsessed with "standards", a euphemism for academic exam results which can be fed into league tables to "prove" how good their education policy is. Academic exam results are, in fact, one of the poorest indicators of potential.

The figures we should be looking at are child suicides and deaths caused by school bullying and examine why teachers are consistently the largest group of callers to the UK National Workplace Bullying Advice Line. Bad behaviour emanates from the top.
Tim Field, Didcot, UK

Physical punishment is not the solution for a disruptive child. More money needs to be put into the education system to allow for class helpers - even in secondary schools. A second person in a classroom could help to defuse any volatile situations involving a "bully/troublemaker" and a teacher. This role could be ideal for someone outside the "system", recently retired people or volunteers with a wealth of experience to pass on. They could prove to be an ally the children could talk to.
Mary Rudge, Aberbargoed

Surely we live in a more civilised society than this! Why do so many people think that hitting children is acceptable - by this premise surely it is okay to hit your wife or your mother when they do something that upsets you. Hitting children only teaches them that it is acceptable behaviour to hit those who are smaller and/or whose behaviour you do not like!
Jane, Scotland

The vast majority of kids are decent people who want to look forward to a decent future

Paul Smy, Haslemere, Surrey

Yet again we see the Tories denigrating a whole section of society. The list of "unworthies" includes racial minorities, asylum seekers, Europeans, gays and now kids. The Tories see only the negative in people. The vast majority of kids are decent people who want to look forward to a decent future - not to live in a society where different means dangerous.
Paul Smy, Haslemere, Surrey

Surely we live in a more civilised society than this! Why do so many people think that hitting children is acceptable - by this premise surely it is okay to hit your wife or your mother when they do something that upsets you. Hitting children only teaches them that it is acceptable behaviour to hit those who are smaller and/or whose behaviour you do not like!
Jane, Scotland

There are many mature individuals who are willing and intellectually capable of training as teachers despite not being graduates. Why not give them a chance?
Steve Dillon, Croydon, Surrey

We live in a society which allows children very little social function or sense of responsibility

Dr Brian Crabb, Denbigh, Wales

People who attribute declining standards of behaviour in children solely to poor parenting have no understanding of the true reasons. We live in a society which allows children very little social function or sense of responsibility. That is the real problem. Without self-esteem and a sense of being wanted or needed in society, children will naturally buck against authority. Parents can help, within the home environment, but that is not the complete answer and never can be. This is almost a logical truism.
Dr. Brian Crabb, Denbigh, Wales.

With a fiancée and father in the teaching profession I feel very strongly about school discipline. Regarding bad children, I believe the fault lies solely with the parents. Far too often, parents are irresponsible and unable to accept that the child needs to be disciplined. It is always the parents that are the first to march down to the school, mouthing off and harassing teachers, over what is often just a stern telling off. There is also a pattern that children that tend to misbehave are often from bad homes. I know of various examples where, when school is over the children are told to stay out of the house till 9/10pm. I think there should be more support for teachers when dealing with parents, and I definitely agree with a harsher method of punishment such as using the cane if, and I state if, all other methods of control have failed to work.
Una, London, UK

Parents should be held responsible for their children's bad behaviour and yes they should be excluded from school - bad behaviour breeds bad behaviour. Children who want to learn should be allowed to do so without interruption.
Susan Stead, Nottinghamshire

The belt should be brought back in the schools. Where I live, you see arrogant school children causing trouble, with no respect for anyone - also you see them taking the Mickey out of teachers and disrupting lessons. I think you would see a far more civilised society growing up if discipline was there in the schools. Lines and punishment exercises and detention are soft options. The belt has never done any harm. Nowadays kids can get away with anything.
Rodney Johnston, Dundee

A large number of parents have no respect for teachers and pass this attitude on to their children. Nowadays an equal amount of time is spent just trying to get even the 'good' children to listen to what is being taught. Teachers are being asked to do an impossible job and impose discipline that parents are even unable to enforce. Parents are then only too ready to jump to their children's defence when they misbehave in school. If parents were required to stay in school and attend classes with their badly behaved offspring they would probably be more inclined to do something about it.
J Collins, Cardiff, Wales

Laziness is endemic and kids seem to expect their teachers to do the learning for them

Tom Beck, Trowbridge, England

There is nothing wrong with the idea of Comprehensive Schools in themselves. I sent my son to one in Hamburg, Germany, where he got a first class education from (mostly, there are always some exceptions) first class teachers. But, as many of your correspondents write, it is the attitude of the parents that is crucial. My wife and I were expected to take an active interest in our son's education and work. There were no computers, pocket calculators and the like. The kids had to work it out for themselves. The problem in this country is low expectations, no respect for education or schools, and parents ready to claim their 'rights' while ignoring their responsibilities. Laziness is endemic and kids seem to expect their teachers to do the learning for them. Till these attitudes change, it is difficult to see what can be done to improve matters.
Tom Beck, Trowbridge, England

Teachers need to be able to use the cane whenever they wish. I'm 71 and I can tell you that my old teachers at school had my full attention and respect after a few Canings!
Harry Wentworth, Torquay, England

Those people who, like Derek Bird, say "A short, sharp slap from a teacher when I was a child did me no harm" are wrong. It clearly did them a great deal of harm if they think that hitting children is acceptable behaviour. It is not. It is a known problem, that the abused become abusers. Thankfully our European friends have helped us break the cycle of abuse.
Matt Trigg, St Albans, UK

I have been a secondary teacher for over 20 years. I have worked overseas for 12 years and find returning a pitiful standard of English and very poor respect, aggression. I fear for my grandchildren. Some of the younger teachers can't spell and do not know grammar or punctuation. My foreign students had more pride in the English language. It worries me. Standards are falling
Phyllis Khanna, Beith, Scotland

Any teacher who smacks me is quite liable to end up hurt

Simon, England

The day they bring back corporal punishment in schools will be known henceforth as national Beat The Teacher Day. Because any teacher who smacks me is quite liable to end up hurt. Caning is little better than common assault. If a policeman smacked you on the backside with a stick or leather strap simply for being jippy then that's police brutality. If this isn't double standards, I don't know what is.
Simon, England

Well Simon from England. I'm only 33, and I used to receive the cane, slipper and strap at school for misconduct. It taught me discipline. I once tried arguing back at my punishment, as you suggest kids should. I was then held down by two teachers and beaten again. I learnt not to argue with much!
Alf Carr, Walsall, Britain

The only reason that bad behaviour from pupils is on the increase is because students are not shown substantial discipline at school. The bad behaviour is not just the responsibility of the parents. It is also the responsibility of the school they belong to. Teachers need to be encouraged to use corporal punishment as they once did to treat bad behaviour. This is the only solution to this problem. It worked once before, so there is no reason to suggest it won't work now. Let us stop treating children like angels!
John Kitson, Torquay, UK

No wonder morale in the teaching profession is in decline. Neither parents nor pupils have any respect for the rules; 'rights' are trumpeted yet responsibilities denied. Too many things need to be changed to list here, but let's start by overruling the European Court of Human Rights and restoring limited corporal punishment in all schools. After all, for those who remember the days when it was used, corporal punishment was threatened more than ever actually administered and I don't remember a single recipient of a few strokes ever saying they didn't deserve it.
Paul R, Oxford, UK

What on earth is John Kitson talking about? Does he not understand that any form of corporal in schools is illegal in this country and any teacher trying this will be in court before you can say politically correct.
Alison, England

Many teachers and head teachers I speak to tell me that in addition to a deterioration in standards of behaviour among children, the attitude of some parents is often intimidating and scary. Acts of violence and aggressive verbal comment towards teachers from a growing minority of parents is encouraging pupils to try their luck. Involving parents in their children's learning is commendable; indulging petulant behaviour and unreasonable expectations is not.
Denis, Devon, UK

Exclusion orders are really closing the door after the proverbial has bolted. Schools should only need to impose minimal discipline as the discipline should be in the children before they ever start school. Parents, parents, parents. It is their responsibility. If a child is not settled by the time they start primary school, then there is little that can be done to set them right.
Paul Bridle, London, UK

A short, sharp slap from a teacher when I was a child did me no harm

Derek Bird, Dunstable

The problem today is that troublesome kids and their parents "know their rights". They ignore the fact that to have rights they must also have responsibilities. A short, sharp slap from a teacher when I was a child did me no harm. I didn't go home and tell my parents that as I would have had another one from them. Having said that thankfully the majority of students and their parents are OK - it's the tiny vociferous minority that cause the problem.
Derek Bird, Dunstable, England

New discipline procedures are necessary in today's schools. I have a daughter who is starting secondary school this year and my main concern is bullying and threatening behaviour. Those children or teenagers that make other innocent children's lives a misery through bullying should be severely disciplined. Every child or teenager may have a reason for such behaviour but we as adults must provide support and encourage these children to stop threatening the innocent. Parents should be recruited to patrol the streets around every school and monitor any truancy or bullying. I am sure there are parents out there that perhaps don't work and could offer their spare time to become an out of school patrol assistant.
Jeanette Thomas, London, UK

Too many people transfer the problem to an external influence, poverty, lack of social support and other PC factors. Well these problems have always existed but that is not an excuse for poor parenting. Why have past parents with financial problems been able to bring up children with respect and social skills and many now still do. People must take responsibility for their own actions and that includes bringing up children so as not to cause problems for other people, who after all have the right to a peaceful life.
Garry, England

In the past if a parent was told that their child had been misbehaving the parent and the school would discipline the child.

Roger Weatherley, Newton Abbot, Devon

Discipline for children has always been a joint effort. Having had five children I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times a gentle slap was required. In the past if a parent was told that their child had been misbehaving the parent and the school would discipline the child. Now neither are in a position to do so. I am not talking about a good beating, just firm and even treatment, with physical punishment as a last, but necessary final sanction.
Roger Weatherley, Newton Abbot, Devon

We as a society, need to teach our kids that they are accountable for their actions. We need to reflect the same values as adults and stop bleating on about human rights so much so that nobody is held responsible for their actions. There are far too many excuses for us to fall back on instead of trying to prevent problems before they develop. And what happened to sports and after school activities. What do you think kids do with their energy if they have nothing positive to apply it to?
Linda, Sacramento, USA (British Citizen)

Of course kids should have discipline and the occasional whack never hurt anybody. The fact is kids are just like everyone else, and push their luck if they think they can get away with it. Teachers have to be seen to be leaders some people have it and some people don't it's as simple as that. If a teacher sends out the wrong signals which say I can be messed with then rest assured that person will be messed with. If on the other hand, signals of assertive confidence are being sent out there is less likelihood of physical punishment being needed. You don't need to be big or scream and shout. Some of my greatest hero's were my teachers If you can inspire and encourage kids the influence of trouble makers will be diminished. If that's not happening then you're wasting their time and yours. As my old mum used to say, "Teachers are born, not made!"
Dave, Vancouver, Canada

A lot of the trouble seems to come from poorer areas, where there is no access to the sort of social support network that will deal with 'problem' children. Also many of the households are suffering from the stressful effects of poverty, creating an atmosphere which is not conducive to 'normal' behaviour. How, exactly, does Garry think removing what little financial support there is, and subjecting the kid's household to further stress, especially when that action is perceived to come from 'the authorities', is going to help?
Matt, Manchester

Bring back the strap. I'll vote for any party that pledges to do this!
Harry Wentworth, Torquay, Devonshire, England

Parents of excluded children or of those causing trouble on the streets should have their Child Benefit stopped until their children behave in a civil order

Garry, England

Yes as a teacher I can tell you that discipline is in decline in schools along with respect and any form of social skills. Parents must take more responsibility for the social education of their offspring and not simply allow them to go about school or anywhere else with the aggressive, anti-social attitudes and behaviour many children/teenagers display. Parents of excluded children or of those causing trouble on the streets should have their Child Benefit stopped until their children behave in a civil order. The parents are at fault lets have the bottle to punish them.
Garry, England

Problem kids come from problem backgrounds. Insist all parties attend family therapy but exclude until the problem is clearly resolved. The Liberal Democrat idea allows school majority to be dictated to by a troublesome minority.
Paul Hamel, Trowbridge, UK