The church ought to promote their positive aspects and be a little more conscious of their recommendations.
CN

Just two of the comments Talking Point has received so far - read more below.

Background ¦ Your reaction

The Background:

Vicars have had a free reign on how they view Christianity and God for the last 150 years - but the possible return of the heresy trial could be about to change all of that.

The Church of England have debated introducing a new discipline procedure for clergy who profess atheism or deny the doctrine of the Trinity or the Incarnation.

The new legislation would create tribunals to be held in private, but the judgements would be made public. The new process would be cheaper and quicker than the current consistory courts used by the Church.

Should vicars be punished for holding non-traditional views of Christianity?

Bishops have said that such trials would be rare, but the Archdeacon of Surrey, the Ven Robert Reiss, says the procedure would need to screen complaints from worshippers who would report vicars with whom they disagreed on doctrine.

At a time when congregations are dwindling many people believe the Church should loosen up a bit.

The controversial group, the Sea of Faith, see religion as a human creation - that we "make up" ideas, beliefs and even faiths.

Claiming members across a wide selection of religions, they say: "Religious practices and 'truths', like everyone else's, are socially constructed, made by human communities and not laid down by gods or ghosts or denizens of a supernatural realm."

Is it necessary for the Church of England to enforce their clergy to preach a conformist view of God? Send us your views.

Background ¦ Your reaction

Your Reaction:

Religion is based on faith and beliefs (however misguided they may be). If a person, at any level, does not have the required faith and beliefs then they are not part of that religion. That is why we have so many different versions of Christianity and other religions.
Neil Rajah, UK

If someone works for an organisation, then they should expect to have to "toe the line". For instance, if someone worked for a charity supporting the deaf, and wanted that charity to instead work with the blind, then I think we'd agree that maybe that person is with the wrong organisation, and should "move somewhere more suitable".
In the world of Christianity in England, there are many types of church to choose from, and when you join one church, you should be abiding by their rules and beliefs. Okay, so maybe someone (be they a vicar or a congregation member) feels that "their church" doesn't match their feelings... maybe its time that THEY should join another church whose beliefs better match theirs.
Paul, England

Many of the comments from outside England show that the writers are unaware of the CofE's special role in the UK Constitution. So long as it remains the *Established* (=official) Church, it and its members must reflect all shades of Christian opinion. But if, as I devoutly hope, it becomes disestablished, then it will be free to be as doctrinaire as the majority of its members wish.
Alan Reekie, UK

The 39 Articles of Faith referred to by Michael Willis date from the 1660s. The C of E being legally linked to the government in England (as its "religious arm"), it would take an Act of Parliament to change them. We are thus faced with a set of beliefs which are at the mercy of secular authority and arguably antiquated. Who better to question them than those whose everyday business is the practice of religion?
Peter, Netherlands

I've heard of a 'broad church' but this is ridiculous. People who don't believe in God generally wouldn't enter a church, let alone seek to join and become a Minister in it. If these 'godless vicars' do not have the conscience to leave the Church when they no longer agree with its central doctrine, then why would other people wish to listen to them preaching about their consciences and moral well-being? On the other hand, most atheists will go to churches for christenings, weddings (including their own) and funerals, so perhaps we all need to examine our moral positions.
Dave Rose, UK

The "Free Reign" should indeed be ended. It's high time that vicars be re-examined on the basic tenets of the Christian faith. The belief in a triune God is fundamental to Christianity and that Jesus as the second person in that trinity relationship is bedrock. Let's start there in weeding out the chaff.
William Taylor, USA

The Church should have the same rights as other organised entities.
Chris England, USA

If they don't believe in God and the tenets of the faith why are they preaching? Of course you kick people like that off their pulpits.
Richard T Ketchum, USA

While I don't doubt that these "godless" clergy have strong moral and ethical beliefs, I don't believe the Church of England is the place for them to practice those beliefs. They are certainly free to form their own "church" -- it sounds as though there are plenty of clergy and plenty of people willing to support them. We have a lot of "feel good" churches in the USA who make it plain exactly what they are offering. I'd rather make my personal choice of where to worship based on honesty, rather than buying a pig in a poke.
Leslie, USA

Even though no one is perfect except for Christ, Vicars should attempt to set the example on how to live the Christian life. If teachings of Christ are not put into practice by the ones who preach it, how can the followers be expected to follow the teachings of Christ.
Danny Waggoner, USA

I say "yes". It's the church's right to say what defines their religion. Many religions, including the Anglican one, still codify and support racism, prejudice and general bigotry. What matter the reintroduction of the heresy charge? The Spanish Catholics implemented it with dashing style and admirable enthusiasm after all...
Benjamin, UK

Why do so many people wish to stay inside organisations with which they so diametrically disagree. It couldn't be that that is the only place they can receive respect without earning it, could it?
Jim Longworth, USA

There is a very big difference between Faith and Doctrine. The faith in God is a necessary prerequisite for a Minister. He is there to be a Shepherd for Christ. Doctrine, or rules made by man can be questioned. What point is there in having an Agnostic Vicar?
Pat Van der Veer, Canada

In business, if an employee is guilty of misconduct, then they can expect to be dismissed. In the same way, a Church should also have the right to discipline a Priest, Pastor, Vicar (or Elder) who brings the church into disrepute.
Steve Blunden, UK

The Church must move with the times, and this might well mean reluctantly letting go of the notion of a supreme being. If the Church wishes to spread its message of goodwill, which Christianity is fundamentally based on, it should be prepared to sacrifice, as it were, the notion of God. The Church would find itself less subject to criticisms of delusional fantasy, and the values of Christianity, which although a non-believer myself, I find to be useful and good, will prosper. God is man made, and the sooner people realise this, the sooner they will start saving the world themselves, rather than waiting for some Father Christmas Messiah to do it for them.
Marti Andrews, UK

Our communities' need for pastoral care will long survive primitive beliefs in supernatural phenomena. If the church requires belief in God it will surely perish. Otherwise there is the chance that from it might be born a new, humanist, loving approach which will keep our lovely old churches as enriching shared places for us all. Down with authoritarian theistic nonsense! Long live the church!
Tom Donald, Scotland

I think godless vicars should rethink their choice of career. If their reason is to be a vicar is simply to provide moral guidance to people then maybe they could become agony aunts.
Daren, UK

It is perfectly acceptable to have atheist RE teachers, as I had at school, but it is a complete contradiction in terms to have a representative of god who does not believe in god. Who do they represent? It would be the same as me going round saying I have come from the planet Zog to tell you there is no such thing as an extra-terrestrial, although I think David Ike has beaten me to it!
Graeme, England

Definitely. Their beliefs have an undermining effect on the role of God's church to the whole of society. To let them stay would be suicidal to the Christian faith.
Jonathan Barnard, Sweden

In England we at last appear to be reaching an enlightened state where we realise that God is simply a metaphor for 'Good'. England is, and always shall be, a 'Christian' nation, because the ingrained national characteristics of honesty, charity, politeness and a sense of fair play persist, even though most people no longer hold explicit Christian beliefs; the historical source of these cherished English ideals.
I think that vicars should be free to shed the supernatural interpretation of God and express a more rational and educated view on the issue without being persecuted for something which I perceive to be the next natural step in the church's evolution towards becoming a more inclusive institution.
Alan R. Graves, England

I would have thought the question - 'Do You Believe in God?' was a pretty vital aspect for any Vicar Job Application Form!
Allaster Finke, UK

It is strange and bizarre that a debate on this issue should be going on. I guess this is an eloquent display of how dysfunctional the Church of England has become and how totally irrelevant it has become to those who know and love in God. The existence of God is the premise upon which the church is and must be founded-period. Throw the Godless people out of the Church before they turn the church into a commercialised vehicle of togetherness and feel-good.
Chet, England

I truly wish not to be offensive. When the C of E broke away from Catholicism, it was a matter of convenience. When you don't have the character and fortitude to hold beliefs intact, you open yourself up for constant degradation. If I belonged to a church that had to think about the expulsion of clergy that professed other dogma, I would show them by way of the purse strings, attendance and by my own utterances to the hierarchy of my displeasure.
John McCarthy, USA

I doubt if there are more than a handful of people in the church who are fundamental believers. It isn't for the church to dictate belief. Though, I think, it would have more impact if individuals within the church, who do not believe, resigned and publicly stated their reasons.
Tom, Australia

I couldn't believe my eyes when I read about this "debate". Why would anybody want to remain a vicar if they did not believe in God?
Keith Stirrup, USA

It really is very sad that this question should have to be raised. It is quite clear that a Vicar is there to serve God in propagating the Gospel of Christ as the inspired word of God. This cannot happen if a Vicar does not believe in God. The calling to all who serve is first and foremost to love the Lord you God with all your might. Impossible for the unbeliever. Whilst the Church of England is losing numbers other churches who believe and are appropriately led are growing in number. Witness the gathering of 20,000 believers at Stonleigh Bible Week in Coventry in 2 weeks time. These leaders believe and teach the full gospel and are seeing remarkable things happen amongst there congregations. A marked contrast to those led by unbelieving Vicars. If you are in such a Church get out and find yourself a believing leader!
Paul Tavernor, Wales

Christianity is the UK religion; it teaches about God. We worship in churches under the leadership of vicars and priests. If the vicar does not believe in God he does not belong in the church...either as an edifice or as a religion.
Casandra, USA

As someone who has seen a congregation suffer at the hands of an apparently misguided C of E vicar I agree wholeheartedly. It is about time the C of E started taking some responsibility for its employees. It is not sufficient to allow them to continue until the end of their particular incumbency as was in our case. Seven years is a very long time.
B Rice, England

What's next? Burning witches?
Wendy S, UK

We are all taught by our teachers and we become our teachers. If our teacher is a Godless man/woman then what will we become? Also, there is a scripture that says lest any one cause one of my little ones to fall, it would be better that he put stones about his neck and be cast into the sea.
God is in charge and He will have his way. But I would hate to be one of the Godless vicars leading the children of God to hell. God will take out who He desires. But the head of the church has a responsibility to its people.
Megan, USA

It is an important tradition of the C of E to love people and try to understand their diversities. Of course it is silly to allow vicars to preach when they don't believe in God. Everyone goes through a difficult time in their lives where their faith is challenged and so the church should be there to help them as much as everyone else.
Andy Arme, UK

Let me state first that I am an Atheist. Now having said that, I believe that the church has the right to rid itself of Vicars who do not follow their Dogma. Any Religion is based on a set of beliefs, and the individuals who run the church have every right to make sure that those ideals are followed. It is after all, their religion.
CB

Yes, they should be expelled. The Church must be truthful, and weed out hypocrites. This is no Inquisition; it does not take away people's rights to a happy, secular livelihood. Nor does it infringe on any secular freedoms. As to the disappearance of people from churches -- is the Church a club or a religion? Finally, churches in the US that rapidly lose their members and die are overwhelmingly liberal. The evangelical, fundamentalist groups have gained at a rate surpassing all other denominations.
Randy Ceton, USA

To respond to Peter Roe's challenge of reading the Bible to demonstrate its relevance, perhaps he can let me know the last time he stoned an adulteress, executed an apostate, punished the grandchildren of an offender, put a homosexual death...etc etc...
Robert Zeps, USA

Those who do not believe in God, in teaching positions in the church, C of E, or whatever, have been a problem for years. As a Methodist, I have run into this type of being in positions of authority, and quit going to church for years. Thanks to God, I have finally found a small church with a Christian Pastor.
Vit, USA

The church is really in dire straights if it is even contemplating keeping vicars who are godless. It surely underscores the irrelevancy of the church in a modern society.
Robert Zeps, USA

I suggest you ask God - His is the only opinion that matters. It certainly hasn't got anything to do with a consensus on a web site!
David, Canada

The primary authority for teaching and defining Christian doctrine is the Bible. The creed is clearly laid out here, and those who do not hold to the fundamental truths of Christianity are clearly not Christian. The Bible is as relevant today as it was 2000 years ago. I challenge anybody to read it and prove otherwise. If a driving instructor who totally ignored the highway code was caught teaching a pupil in this way, he would be thrown out of the job immediately. Why should the church therefore have to put up with heretics who do not uphold the great truths God has given us?
Peter Roe, UK

As an atheist, I have had many discussions with theology students, ex-theology students and vicars who do not actually believe in God. They sometimes choose to stay in the Church for pastoral, "social-concern" reasons, even though they do not believe in God! I cannot respect people who take such a course of action. I don't believe that there is a God, and therefore I do not seek a career in the Church! So what's controversial about expecting all Clerics to believe in God?
Ian Rogers, UK

I'm uncertain as to how a 'Godless vicar' could preach about biblical dialect, but heresy charges would be unhealthy for the church if it wants to survive. The church ought to promote their positive aspects and be a little more conscious of their recommendations.
CN

Of course the Church has the right to expel or excommunicate all priests who do not follow the Christian dogma. If you belong to a church you preach its dogmas, if you do not believe in it, why are you there? Do something else. Begin your own church but do not ruin the faith that has been handed over to the church. If you do not believe in Christ and in his salvific act, if you do not believe in the Trinity and in the Incarnation. Why do you want to be called a Christian, forget it. Choose another name.
Lois, USA

As I understand it, this is not a matter for choice - whether by the Church of England itself or by those outside it. The C of E is itself committed by its 39 Articles to an evangelical theology, setting the Bible (God's revealed truth) as the supreme arbiter in matters of faith and conduct, not something which should or can be contradicted or denied.
Along with this goes the fact that every Christian organisation, insofar as it professes Jesus Christ as Lord, is subject to Jesus as its head - not reason, humanism, political correctness or any other individual. Jesus' mandate for his church, and that alone, is the only one which the C of E (and any other denomination or church) should and dare follow. And the stringency of his demand for the purity and correctness of doctrine taught among his people is staggering.
Michael Willis, UK

Of course the Church would be right to expel vicars who don't believe in the faith they've joined. They may be very good people, but that really isn't the point. If the C of E allows vicars who don't believe in any of its tenets, then it ceases to be a religion at all. I'm not a Christian, so I'm in very much favour of tolerance of different beliefs, but there's a large difference between tolerance and watering down a religion to the point where it ceases to believe in the God it's meant to worship. After all, without that, what's the point?
Sarah Blake, UK

I am a confirmed C of E Christian, although not a regular church-goer. I would find it preposterous to have a vicar who denied the basic tenets of Christianity. If they hold 'alternative' views then they have no place in the Church. In fact, since they hold positions of such influence in the Christian community they would be able to undermine the religion. Of course they should be removed - as quickly as possible. There are plenty of places where they can pursue their own ideologies.
Stephen Peters, Switzerland

Of course they should expel them. And whilst they're at it why not bring back the Inquisition and organise public burnings of non-Christians? No wonder the Church of England is losing its congregations by the pew load
Stephen Hytter, UK

Godless Vicars should start their own church. Their present salary must be their only motive for keeping themselves in the Church. Thus they not only do not share the Church's belief in God they also subscribe to an unshared morality system. True Christian principles go so far beyond such beliefs, to the point where St. Maximillion Kolbe sacrificed his life in imitation of Christ, so that another might live. As Fr. Kolbe demonstrated true Christianity is not a cyber club, which must be what the Godless Vicars would feel comfortable in and impose on others.
David Black, USA

Of course the church should get rid of atheist vicars. The whole point of a church minister is that he is Christ's representative in his community, with a duty to proclaim the faith and minister to the pastoral needs of the church. The ability to do this comes solely from a personal relationship with the living God. How can someone who denies the existence of God, or the unique nature of Christ be expected to do the job at all.
Moreover, what sort of moral standards does it show if someone if willing to be paid to represent something he doesn't believe in. It is the height of hypocrisy.
Adam, Belgium

Final Vote:

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