TRANSCRIPT - PANORAMA "THE MORTGAGE TIME BOMB" DATE: 22:05:2000 CORRECTION: MONDAY'S BROADCAST COMMENTARY CONTAINED TWO ERRORS WHICH HAVE BEEN CORRECTED IN THIS TRANSCRIPT AND ON REPEAT BROADCASTS. THE SECRETLY-FILMED ADVISER WAS INCORRECTLY CALLED AN INDEPENDENT FINANCIAL ADVISER, WHILE ALSO BEING CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF ALLIED DUNBAR. WE APOLOGISE FOR ANY CONFUSION THIS MAY HAVE CAUSED. IAN MACQUEEN SIMS WAS INCORRECTLY IDENTIFIED AS AN ACTUARY, INSTEAD OF AS AN ADVISER. DAVID LOMAX Three million home owners are getting alarming letters about their mortgages. MR ASHWORTH Somebody is making a lot of money and it's not us. LOMAX They warn that policies covering their mortgages may not produce a full amount. MR BLEASE To my horror it was £27,000 short. MRS WHITE You think Oh my God! You know, what am I going to do? LOMAX Tonight - the mortgage time bomb. The Mills family have five children and live at Atherstone in Warwickshire. Like many other families, they're trying to improve their own property. It's their biggest financial commitment. It's taking all their spare time and savings. RICHARD MILLS We've put 10 years of hard work and graft into the house, decorating and rebuilding it, and we're still carrying on working on it at the moment. I'd say we've probably got another 2 to 3 years left on actually getting it how we actually want it. [TV commercial] Everyday thousands of savers receive a cheque from Legal and General. LOMAX To support their mortgage of £40,000 the Mills family took out an endowment policy with Legal and General. The letter they received wasn't so welcome. MR MILLS Then all of a sudden we get a letter saying the policy isn't going to make what it should and we're going to be £10,000 short. SUSAN MILLS We couldn't believe it really, it's.. you know, unbelievable. It's not only me, it's other families as well, everybody.. you know, a lot of people that will be having these letters. LOMAX The Mills family took out their endowment in 1991 at a premium of £61 a month. In March Legal and General told them the policy would have a shortfall. The family can't afford top up premiums. MR MILLS We're struggling. We are struggling. Like I say, every bit of money we have just goes straight back into the house and we're paying just to keep our heads above water basically. LOMAX What did they actually say to you when they sold you this policy? MRS MILLS They actually said to us that after the 17 years, there'd be enough money in the endowment to pay off the mortgage. LOMAX And you believed them. MRS MILLS I believed them. I didn't question it. Everyone was buying the policies at the time and it just wasn't questionable. [TV commercial] Legal and General - trust us to deliver. LOMAX They took out this policy because Legal and General promised them, at the time, that they would have enough money to cover the mortgage. How did you allow them to take a product that's got them into such a mess? GARETH HOSKIN Legal and General They would have seen from the information that they would have read at the time they took out the policy with us that no specific promise was made about the investment returns. Investing in an endowment policy is about taking a gamble on the way investments will rise in the future. It's not a guaranteed way of paying off the mortgage. LOMAX The Mills are typical of millions of home owners in Britain who are now learning about mortgage shortfalls. How would you describe the scale of the potential possible shortfall? MICHAEL FOLGER Financial Services Authority Well, the size of the potential shortfall varies from case to case. It may only be a few hundred pounds in some cases, it may be several thousands in others. Altogether our rough estimate is that perhaps three million out of five million households with mortgage endowments may find that they have a shortfall. [TV commercial] You can plan your own financial future, or you can talk to Allied Dunbar. LOMAX In the 80s Allied Dunbar and other companies promoted a range of financial products. Endowment policies were closely linked to the housing boom. With tax relief and high inflation they seemed a good bet at the time. But that's exactly what endowment policies were. There was a built in risk. DAVID LOMAX To understand the world of endowment mortgages, you've got to look upon them as if they were a horserace, the homeowners, the punters paying their premiums or their bets in the hope of backing a winner in the long-run. The whole thing really is just one big gamble. HOWARD ASHWORTH Nothing was sort of said it was going to be a gamble. I mean if it was a gamble there's no way I would have took it out. I've got a family. I don't want to take gambles on my mortgage. I just want to pay the thing and get rid of it as quickly as possible. ? There may be trouble ahead.... LOMAX In 1991 the Ashworths, from Enfield in North London, took out an £80,000 mortgage linked to an Eagle Star endowment. The premiums were £105 a month. After eight years the company told them the policy might not now meet it's target. MR ASHWORTH Very angry. I mean it's costing me a lot of money. It's costing me a lot of worry. I mean we're both worried. Obviously to be told that your mortgage isn't going to be paid at the end of the term is very worrying indeed. I've got to now try and find an alternative way of making sure it is. LOMAX An endowment is like a horserace because of the way the premiums are invested. The idea is that the insurance company invests them in the market until the mortgage is due. Until then the home owner is just paying interest on the loan. When you take on an endowment mortgage, what you're doing is gambling that at a certain percentage your monthly premiums over 25 years will be enough to pay off the original loan. But it doesn't always work out like that. In the mid-80s when the anticipated growth rates were high, sometimes 12%, all was well. They were pretty good even when it was 8%. But when inflation fell and tax concessions were abolished, endowments became less attractive, although some people didn't need them anyway. But others couldn't understand how their investments had under- performed at a time when the stock market was doing well. Policy holders like the Ashworths were not told why the company's investments hadn't done better, or why Eagle Star's predictions about overall performance had gone so widely astray. MR ASHWORTH Obviously if somebody is investing their money, I expect them to take reasonable steps to make that amount of money, or in fact inform me before sort of 8 years has passed that it isn't keeping up with steps. I mean if it was not making the required figures after two years, surely they should have informed me then. Why wait till 9 years. LOMAX Last year Eagle Star told the Ashworths they should increase their monthly premiums from £105 to £139. Only a year later Eagle Star put it up again to £177. TRACEY ASHWORTH Obviously last year we weren't happy about it but you sort of swallowed it thinking oh it's just the once, if that's what it needs then we'll do it. But there's nothing like.. they want it this year, and then if we agree this year there's nothing to stop them saying next year. So I don't see how they could have.. especially in 12 months, got it so wrong with their figures. LOMAX For an independent assessment of the Ashworths' case, we went to Iain MacQueen-Sims. He's a mortgage expert who has given technical advice in endowment disputes. IAIN MacQUEEN-SIMS Mortgage expert I'm astonished that the Eagle Star seemed to be in a position where they were arbitrarily increasing the month premiums, and they've also increased them on a regular basis. It just makes you wonder how much longer this will go on and whether they ever think that the individuals concerned can afford to do it. They must have got it dreadfully wrong at the beginning to have to take this action later. MRS ASHWORTH We kept our side of the bargain. We've paid on time every month. We put them up like we were asked to. We can't be expected just to keep putting them up. We can't do it. MR ASHWORTH We feel cheated. I mean it's a fact that Eagle Star promised us things and they haven't kept their part of the bargain. We were told that it was going to pay out the endowments, they're obviously not keeping on track. We've got a family. We don't want these sort of worries now. We're 10 or 15 years down the line before this mortgage is paid. We could do without this couldn't we. LOMAX What do you think of the company? MR ASHWORTH The company? Oh I'm not very happy with them at all. I mean the whole thing stinks. Endowments are not a good idea. Somebody is making a lot of money and it's not us. LOMAX Eagle Start turned down our invitation to appear in this programme but the company did give us a statement. "We regret the concern that mortgage endowment policy reviews have caused our customers.." it says "But we are convinced that they are a reasonable and responsible reaction to a major shift in economic outlook." But the company also warns, in a separate briefing note to Panorama, that "if the prospects for future growth decline further, we may be obliged, at a future annual review, to suggest that policyholders increase premiums again." The endowment industry says shortfalls are simply an unfortunate consequence of the way the market happens to work. There are inherent risks when rates change. MacQUEEN-SIMS It is the industry mantra to preach this, that low inflation, low interest rates etc etc. Well, they're the experts in the business. They should be able to anticipate this. They were happy enough to quote this when they sold the policy, and after all, the individuals wouldn't have taken out an endowment mortgage if they hadn't been sold the policy that they thought would pay off their loan. LOMAX The industry's watchdog, the Financial Services Authority, has ordered companies to apply more realistic projections to endowment policies. MICHAEL FOLGER Financial Services Authority The key thing is for people not to be panicked into surrendering their endowment. That would be the very worst thing to do. And they should then sit back and think hard about their choices and not be railroaded necessarily into raising their premiums. LOMAX The shortfalls which are now being predicted are the product of the late 80s housing boom. But they're also the result of the tactics certain companies used to sell endowments. In the 80s a company called General Portfolio, which later became Gan Life, started selling endowments. Gan Life had a sales team of 2,500 led by one of the company's twin founders. [GAN LIFE In-House Video] We are seeking to offer the most superlative service to our clients. Salesman How are you both? Female Client Fine thanks. Male Client Yes, well thank you. Salesman Any trouble getting here? Female Client No, not really. Your directions were fine. Salesman You've been offered a drink then. Male Client Yes thanks. Female Client I must say you have impressive offices here. Salesman Thank you. ? There may be troubles ahead.... LOMAX Trevor and Alison White bought a Gan Life endowment. They live on the borders of Norfolk and Suffolk in the house which they thought the policy was meant to cover. ALISON WHITE Well Trev and I have always had a love of the countryside and we thought we'd move out here and started looking in this area, and saw it advertised and came up one evening to have a look at it, and that was it basically. Fell in love with it and thought it was our dream house. LOMAX The Whites took out a mortgage of £12,500 linked to an endowment. Then Trevor lost his job so they asked a Gan Life salesman for pension advice. MRS WHITE He was very, very confident. He was very smart. He was covered in gold. He had big gold rings on his hands and a big gold neck thing. I mean Trev and I were totally sucked in basically. I think we were at our lowest point. It was a matter of a few months, yes, 3 or 4 months since Trev got made redundant. We'd got a new baby, you know, a six month old baby, and we just wanted to get the pension sorted out, that's all, and then this fellow came along which I should have sussed really. LOMAX The Whites were told by the Gan Life salesman that he had a financial product which would meet their needs. But to advise them properly, he would first have to have a look at their circumstances. MRS WHITE He asked us if we'd got any other insurance policies. And to be quite honest I thought oh that's a bit nosey, you know, but anyway we said yes, we've got our policies that go with our mortgage, endowment policies. So he asked us if he could have a look at them. So we went and got them, didn't we, and he started looking at them, got the calculator out, started doing some figures, turned round to us and said basically that they weren't worth... His words were they weren't worth the paper that they were written on and we'd be very lucky if we even had the money back to pay our mortgage off. LOMAX The Gan Life salesman advised the Whites to cash in their other endowments and buy one of his. It's known in the trade as 'churning' and it's a breach of the rules. The new Gan policy has meant that by October, when the mortgage is due to be repaid, the Whites will still have to find £6,500. So what are you going to do? MRS WHITE We don't know. We just don't know. Trev and I are just normal working class people. We're never going to be in that top bracket, but we just want a good life and maybe a few little extra luxuries basically, you know, and that's what we said, you know, perhaps in time have a bigger house even, you know,. [GAN LIFE Training Video] But, God forbid, should something happen to you, would you choose to leave your family financially destitute or financially independent? MRS WHITE He knew that that wasn't right for us and it was just a quick.. I can make a quick kill here, you know, and get a nice bit of commission and sod the Whites basically. LOMAX But there was an even more painful realisation for the Whites. If they'd kept their old endowments they would have paid off their mortgage by now. They might even have had a modest nest egg. IAIN MacQUEEN-SIMS Mortgage expert I think the way that the Gan salesman sold this policy initially I think they were misled and mis-sold, and then on top of that you've got the actual investment is failing to produce what it should anyway, so you've got a double whammy. LOMAX Mr Sandy Forrest, the Whites' Gan salesman is now an independent mortgage broker. Complaints against him have been upheld by the industry's ombudsman. We've asked Mr Forrest about them in letters and phone calls but he's turned down our invitation to appear in this programme. We wanted to ask him why he'd sold that particular policy to Mr and Mrs White. The Whites, with a mortgage shortfall of £6,500, have been offered £500 compensation. Theirs is only one of 480 unresolved Gan endowment disputes. Windsor Life has taken over and is now managing about a million Gan Life policies. There is another Gan selling general insurance but that's a separate and unrelated company. The Gan Life sales force has been disbanded but many are still active in financial services. They are known as independent financial advisers and they've taken their skills with them. Julian Yolland boasted that he would take just one minute to explain the art of selling, and he very nearly did. [GAN LIFE In-House Video] Julian Yolland Thames Valley Branch Alright, there are five distinct parts of a sale. If you don't go through, if you miss any one of them out, you won't get the sale. If you don't do them in this order you won't get the sale. Do it like this, you will. It really is that simple. LOMAX Julian Yolland used to be a senior manager at Gan Life. He worked for the company until 1994 and he didn't do badly out of selling endowments. JULIAN YOLLAND Former Regional Manager, Gan Life I was a regional manager within Gan and therefore yes, my income was considerable, especially in the late 80s. LOMAX What sort of income then? YOLLAND It would have been in the order of £20,000 a month. LOMAX And what made you see the light and get out of that? YOLLAND There were some personal issues involved as well, but basically I think I wanted to be able to sleep at night. LOMAX In Henley-on-Thames, and with two other former Gan salesman, Mr Yolland has also set himself up as an independent financial adviser. He's turned from poacher to gamekeeper and he's helping victims of his former company. YOLLAND We, as a firm of IFA's, we have Gan clients and indeed clients from many other sales force driven companies where there are tremendous shortfalls that are predicted under the recent review. LOMAX Do you feel embarrassed about that? YOLLAND Yes. I think it was very easy in the mid 80s to get carried away with the sales force and sales driven culture. [GAN LIFE In-House Video] Lomax Mr client if I could show you a way of.... Then I take it you'd be interested. LOMAX And you were running some of the sales force for Gan. YOLLAND Yes. LOMAX So do you feel guilty about that in a way now? YOLLAND Yes. LOMAX Did you and the other people in the sales force know at the time that the product you were selling was not the very best that could be offered to the customer? YOLLAND Yes. I mean clearly you don't have to be super intelligent to realise that if you were selling one particular product, then there would probably have been better products around. [GAN LIFE In-House Video] Lomax Just follow that very, very strictly. I promise you, you will start selling. LOMAX Did you buy a Gan endowment policy yourself? YOLLAND Did I buy one? No. ? There may be trouble ahead.... LOMAX Brian Blease took out a £60,000 mortgage covered by a Gan endowment policy. After 6 years the Bleases were warned of a shortfall of £27,000. BRIAN BLEASE Frustrated, angry, livid, absolutely livid that what we were sold and what we were.. if you want - promised, will not happen, it won't happen by a small margin, it'll happen by an enormous margin, I mean it's a ridiculous shortfall. LOMAX But then the Bleases made another discovery. The Gan endowment policy they'd been sold would not produce the money until two years after the mortgage was supposed to have been paid off. BLEASE At times we've not known where to turn to for help and assistance, and I think that's.. you know, caused a great deal of tension in the family, and the kids have felt it too. We've been having to slog through papers some nights when we should have been relaxed and at home and easy. LOMAX Like many families, the Bleases have children with outside interests which their parents are keen to encourage. KATE BLEASE When suddenly you're faced with finding quite a large amount of money that you haven't got, it's very difficult not to.. you know, when they start saying "I need a new pair of point shoes, my ice skates are too small" etc etc, not to actually react in a less than positive manner. I just feel that it's very unfair that they should be allowed to get away with it, and somebody should be doing something about it. LOMAX And Mr Blease did, he sent his complaint to the Jimmy Young Show. The Bleases now say they simply trusted what the salesman told them. MRS BLEASE He was extremely keen, extremely friendly, appeared to be extremely trustworthy, very much... I mean he let us feel that he was looking to the future for himself and his family and that and he would be investing in these plans as well. [GAN LIFE Training Video] Salesman Can I take it you'd be happy that this is the way to get the ball rolling to get you financially sorted out? Couple Yes. MRS BLEASE I mean I assume sales training is about making people feel at ease, and he was very good at it. LOMAX Nigel Adams sold the Bleases their Gan endowment, he turned down our invitation to appear in this programme. Mr Adams and his wife are also now independent financial advisers working from their home in Reading, their slogan, 'let the Adams family take the fear out of your finances'. The Bleases are trying to get compensation. They and other endowment holders are now clients of an investigator, Paul Cooper, who makes his living from trying to win compensation for victims of alleged mis-selling. LOMAX How would you summarise Gan's mortgage endowment business? PAUL COOPER Insurance investigator I think large parts of it were rotten to the core. What was being sold was a bad, overcharged product for the most part. It was often sold to people who didn't need it. Lots of people took these products when they didn't even have a mortgage loan or when they had an existing endowment, there was no control over how the business was done. The company actually, in its policy brochure said "You can sell a policy to anyone between the ages of 16 and 60". Well that's quite absurd. What possible use can a 59 year old man have for a 25 year old endowment? But that's what happened, the company would sell it nonetheless. They didn't have a check which would say 'wait a moment, we can't sell it to this man because he won't want to be paying money when he's 84'. There were charges all the way through for everything. There was a monthly policy charge which started at £1.50 and is now about £2.30 and could go up whenever they felt like it. There were endless little charges. I've got lots of these endowment policies and at the end is the name Bob Patmore, who seems to have got a slice of the commission, an 'override' as it's called in the industry, from thousands of policies that were sold. It's quite incredible the amount of money that man must have made. Bob Patmore invited the front line team into his home to talk about his formula for success. [GAN LIFE In-House Video] Bob Patmore The reason I've got to the level I've got is that I actually believe I do things that other people just don't... LOMAX Mr Patmore got a cut from every policy sold. A colleague told us he made a quarter of a million pounds a month in commission. BOB PATMORE ...but when the income comes in then you realise that actually you're telling little lies to yourself, you really would like it, and the one way I get people to actually expand their minds is that if they ever sit down and say to me "Well money doesn't motivate me a bit" I say "OK, fine, let's assume then that you won a quarter of a million pounds this week on the pools, you'd obviously give it all away wouldn't you". And they seemed to change their mind quite quickly. ? There may be trouble ahead..... LOMAX Mr Patmore? Can I speak to Mr Patmore please? It's David Lomax from BBC Panorama. LOMAX Well we tried our best to ask Mr Patmore about all the Gan endowment policies that he and his company sold. We've written to him, we've been to see him. He's refused to be interviewed, we've turned up here at the house but apparently he doesn't want to talk to us. Mr Patmore now runs a firm of independent financial advisers. Millions of home owners are now reaping the results of the endowment excesses of the late 80's and early 90's, at that time there was little regulation. Many found that what they thought they'd agreed with sales staff was different from the final contract. ALAN CORK We started our married life in the 70's in a very modest terraced house, much like the house we live in today, and the house we bought in 1990 with the Standard Life endowment, seemed like a dream house at the time. LOMAX The Corks took out a Halifax mortgage for £94,000 on this house in South London, it was linked to an endowment policy from Standard Life, the biggest company in the industry. Standard Life's assets are more than 75 billion pounds. [TV commercial] I'm just starting out in life but my standards are already pretty high, that's why I'm so excited about Standard Life. But one day I'll need an endowment mortgage for a home of my own and savings too. LOMAX Mr Cork says that the salesman told him he'd have to pay £636 a month for an interest only mortgage and £170 for the Standard Life endowment. [TV commercial] ... my loved ones are covered by Standard Life Assurance. Standard Life, for all of your life. LOMAX Are you actually saying that the company did something wrong in the way in which this policy was applied to you? MR CORK Well that's right because both figures, the figures for the endowment and the mortgage, turned out to be higher than we'd been quoted and as I say, they'd refused to put things in writing which had been suspicious and then we were in there two and a half months before we actually knew what the figure was, which was again was much higher than we'd been quoted. These are the notes I took at the time and just as well I did because this is the only record of them because... LOMAX Are these the figures that the salesman actually quoted to you for the policy. MR CORK That is correct, yes, that's right. LOMAX So what did he actually tell you? What did you record at the time? MR CORK I mean here's the payments. He is saying I could pay it off at 65 and get a nest egg and he was saying a minimum of 18 years, maximum 22 years. LOMAX Eventually as his circumstances got tougher Mr Cork found the payments too much, he moved down market and sold the dream house at a loss of £25,000 and then he did what he should only have done as a last resort, cashed in his endowment. Over seven years he'd paid £20,000 into it but only got half. MR CORK It's a beautiful place, a picture postcard place so it has happy memories for us. LOMAX What do you feel like when you come back to have a look at this place? MR CORK I feel upset that I don't own it any more and I don't live there any more. LOMAX Standard Life turned down our invitation to appear in this programme but in a statement to Panorama said "The company takes all customer complaints seriously but is unable to comment on individual cases" in its statement the Halifax said the company accepted that "There was insufficient documentary evidence kept on file in Mr Cork's case". In theory, because of improved regulation, what happened to the Corks couldn't happen now. This couple is looking at a renovated warehouse in the East End of London. They're going to need nearly a quarter of a million pounds for a flat but now there are regulations about written confirmation of offers, clear English and a mortgage code, and there's wider awareness about possible drawbacks. And what about the mortgage that you would want to get for anything you bought? NEELA BANERJEE Well we're going to actually carry on with the mortgage that we have which is endowment and it's on about 1/3 of this price and the rest of it we're going to have as repayment, we're going to have it as mixed because we don't feel as though we really want to take the risk of having the mortgage fully on endowment. LOMAX Products like endowments are now regulated but mortgage advice and brokers are not. Earlier this year the government decided that it would let the industry itself police brokers and their advice. The Treasury told us that self regulation would be cheaper and were satisfied that it would work. We visited brokers to test this claim, most complied with industry rules but we found examples of bad practice. This adviser in Leicester should have explained the mortgage code and should have declared that he was what's known as an appointed representative of Allied Dunbar while actively pushing one of their policies. [Hidden camera] Salesman Normally for someone sort of 25, 26 buying their first house I would really recommend the endowment route. If you don't go the endowment route and you go repayment it will take six years, almost - it sounds a bit corny this - but to realise I was right. Well what am I doing here, you know, I've got nowhere, I've been paying my £250 a month for five years or whatever, six years, and now I'm back to square one, I'm extending the term again. Client Right, so you'd recommend the endowment. Salesman Certainly, certainly, and it saves you a tenner a month OK? LOMAX We asked the mortgage expert Iain MacQueen-Simms for his reaction. IAIN MacQUEEN-SIMS Mortgage expert They're being steered towards an endowment with a careful selection of facts and figures, overstatements on some and understatements on others, and of course that is an example of somebody not buying an endowment mortgage but being sold an endowment mortgage, perhaps on a basis that they don't understand and which probably is not suited to them. [Hidden camera] Salesman Within a repayment mortgage you've paid off after six years - a technical term coming up here - two tenths of bugger all. MacQUEEN-SIMS It really is a cause for great concern because it might be a minority but it's certainly a significant minority of what's going on in the market which the government was supposed to have sorted out and which obviously it isn't sorting out and it puts the borrower in the situation - who can he trust? There are some very good people in the industry who give very good advice, but the problem is they don't know who to trust. LOMAX The FSA, the watchdog entrusted to guard against mis-selling, has now agreed that all is not well. MICHAEL FOLGER Financial Services Authority We went out on the road and visited firms accounting for more than half of endowment mortgage sales and we found a rather poor picture. Record keeping was poor and in only about a third of the cases could we be confident that the right advice had been given, and we've made it clear that firms have got to get their act together through this year and we shall be back to check. LOMAX Reforming mortgages was a Labour Manifesto pledge. A new 'kite marked mortgage' has been brought in but there's no commission so brokers have no incentive to sell it, the reforms which are proposed will not come onto the statute book before September 2001. Meanwhile, the industry seems content with self-regulation. [TV commercial] Legal and General, trust us to deliver. LOMAX Would Legal and General like to see something firmer in place, proper regulation? GARETH HOSKIN Legal and General We're quite happy to support the voluntary code as it currently stands run by the Mortgage Compliance Board.. Mortgage Code Compliance Board, and we're also willing to support the government in its initiatives of regulating the product as we currently stand and I'm sure the subject will come up again for future review in one or two years time. MacQUEEN-SIMS You get the impression that the government, for some reason, is frightened of the industry. They're frightened of taking any action that might upset the industry, I think because perhaps they scaremonger, the industry, and say "Look if you do this we're going to have to put rates up, if you do this we're going to have to limit the choice, if you do this we're going to make things more complicated for the consumer..." LOMAX In future the sorts of problems which the Whites and others have experienced do seem less likely but the legacy of past excesses is that problems continue. MRS WHITE It has just caused so much grief to us, constant arguments, hasn't it? MR WHITE Alison is on medication. MRS WHITE Yes, I mean I've been on anti-depressants for two years. Previous to that, you know, when it first started up I went on anti-depressants... LOMAX All because of this problem. MRS WHITE Yes, I mean my GP would confirm that for you, I mean he knows all about this. The anti- depressants don't, you know, sort the situation out, they just make you feel a bit better so you can get on with your life but at the back of your mind it's there and October creeping up and you think, oh my God, what am I going to do? LOMAX What advice would you give a customer who suddenly gets a letter saying that his or her endowment is going to have a huge shortfall in the future? FOLGER Don't be panicked into surrendering your endowment or stopping your premium payments, that's the very worst thing you could do. Think hard about your options and take advice. LOMAX Take advice from whom? FOLGER From an independent financial adviser. LOMAX But thousands of families like the Ashworths have been disillusioned by their endowment experiences. From now on the Ashworths will have to find an extra £70 a month in endowment premiums and have no confidence in advice which remains unregulated. TRACEY ASHWORTH I don't trust them at all to get it right really. LOMAX So who can you trust in this business? MRS ASHWORTH I don't know. I really don't know at the moment. We don't know what we're going to do, do we. MR ASHWORTH No. FOLGER I could imagine a scenario where, in five or six years time, we'll be sitting having a similar conversation about things that are happening now that won't explode until later on down the line. LOMAX You can comment on the issues raised in tonight's programme by visiting our website. 1 16