Correspondent Europe: Our Childhood Tx Date: 29th April 2000 This script was made from audio tape - any inaccuracies are due to voices being unclear or inaudible 00.00.00 Opening Music 00.00.09 Edward Stourton From the Atlantic to the Urals: welcome to the most westerly point of the space we call Europe. 00.00.16 Aston EDWARD STOURTON It is of course much more than a geographical area, indeed it can mean a myriad of things - a culture, a political dream, an economic adventure. For some it's even a kind of tribal homeland. 00.00.27 Edward Stourton Well over the next few weeks we're going to try and give some definition to the idea of Europe through stories about its people. And tonight we have three about children and responsibility. 00.00.40 Edward Stourton We report from a place where children grow up free from all judgement, not even held responsible for murder. 00.00.46 Bell 00.00.47 Edward Stourton Here in Portugal I've been to a children's home run by the children themselves. 00.00.52 Parents demonstrating 00.00.54 Edward Stourton And what happens when children have power without responsibility. The French teachers driven from their classrooms. 00.01.00 Loys Bonod I've been hit by children from eleven years old. 00.01.08 Title Page OUR CHILDHOOD 00.01.12 Edward Stourton The Bulger case touched such a raw nerve in Britain that it still produces powerful feelings even now seven years after two year old James was murdered. 00.01.20 Edward Stourton There was an outcry when the European Court of Human Rights recently forced the Home Secretary to review the sentences the killers should serve. 00.01.28 Edward Stourton Well just after James Bulger was murdered there was a case in Norway with almost eerie similarities. The two killers were children, there was that edge of cruelty about they way they killed and again the victim was a younger child - in this case a little girl. 00.01.43 Edward Stourton But the contrast in the way the killers have been treated could not be starker. The solicitor Lawrence Lee represented one of the boys in the Bulger case and we asked him to report this story. 00.01.54 Music 00.02.01 Lawrence Lee Trondheim. Like my home city Liverpool, famous for its port and its imposing cathedral, only we've got two. 00.02.09 Lawrence Lee And there's something else Trondheim shares with Merseyside. It also was the scene of a terrible murder, which caused the nation to examine its conscience. For here too a child was killed by other children. 00.02.23 Lawrence Lee Fifteenth of October 1994. It was a lazy Saturday afternoon. Families were enjoying the first snow of winter. 00.02.32 Lawrence Lee A little girl was out playing near her home. Norway is a safe country; any violent crime is rare. 00.02.42 Lawrence Lee Silje Marie Redergard was five years old, the middle of three children. 00.02.49 Lawrence Lee The most her mother had to fear was an accident. 00.02.52 Lawrence Lee She hadn't even been gone long enough to worry about. 00.03.06 Beate Redergard Voice over One of the local children came to the door and told me what had happened. He said Silje had been found dead on the slope where they go sledging. I couldn't believe it; it just didn't seem possible. I had to go and see for myself. 00.03.25 Terje Lund I was called Saturday afternoon then I drove down to the police station and then I was informed it was committed a crime where a small girl was killed. 00.03.49 Beate Redergard Voice over She was very special to us. Everybody who met her thought she was a very special person too. 00.03.57 Lawrence Lee Silje had been murdered. The police quickly narrowed down the prime suspects, the two boys seen nearby. They were both six years old. 00.04.06 Terje Lund I brought some toys with me from home and I ask also the parents to bring some toys with them so we could start to try to be confident with the boy by playing. And after playing, let's say more than an hour or so, then we were starting the official interrogation and that took part within ten, fifteen minutes and then I got his true story. 00.04.32 Lawrence Lee And what did he tell you? 00.04.34 Terje Lund Well, he confessed. I'm sorry I can't go into details. But he told us that he was using a lot of violence. There was a struggle; they took off the small girl, the clothes. They was using a lot of violence and also some equipment and then later on they left her. 00.05.03 Lawrence Lee And how did you feel towards the boy yourself? 00.05.07 Terje Lund Well after this very strong confession and statement the feelings was coming up for all three of us. Even for the boys and for the mother and for me. So, there was three persons sitting in the room and all three was crying. 00.05.29 Music 00.05.34 Lawrence Lee That night, as news of the murder of Silje Redergard spread, the people of Trondheim had to come to terms with the fact that somehow in their well ordered and tranquil community, two six year old children had turned into killers. 00.05.48 Terje Lund I was shocked, my colleagues were shocked, the whole society was shocked. It hadn't happened in my career before and I don't know if it had happened before in Norway. So it was quite unique. We was in simply in a unique situation and we was starting getting information from abroad to see if it happened in Europe before and then we found a case in Britain. 00.06.24 Lawrence Lee I've come to Trondheim because I was involved in that case where the outcome was very different. 00.06.30 Lawrence Lee The Bulger tragedy has lived with me ever since. Arriving in Norway is already bringing it all back. 00.06.36 Lawrence Lee I've thought long and hard about the way the two boys were dealt with and the punishment they received. 00.06.41 Lawrence Lee Norway has a reputation for progressive welfare policies and I want to find out how differently they dealt with their two child killers. 00.06.50 Lawrence Lee The abduction of Jamie Bulger from a Merseyside shopping centre shocked Britain in 1993 and the legal repercussions continue even now. 00.07.00 Lawrence Lee I was the solicitor representing Jon Venables, one of the two ten year olds convicted of murder. Found guilty they had to serve their sentence. 00.07.09 Lawrence Lee They're now likely to be released in three years time; having spent ten years locked up. 00.07.20 Lawrence Lee The Tiller estate where Silje lived and died was built in the 1970's on the edge of Trondheim. 00.07.26 Lawrence Lee Unlike many council estates I've seen the housing is good - you won't find any graffiti or vandalism. Social conditions are very different here. 00.07.38 Eric Eimghellen When Trondheim expanded quite a lot, this was a neighbouring county.... 00.07.45 Lawrence Lee The day after Silje was killed wild rumours were flying around Tiller - just like on Merseyside after Jamie Bulger's death. 00.07.55 Lawrence Lee The local head teacher, Eric Eimghellen, realised that the whole community would be affected and immediately organised a public meeting so everybody on the estate could find out what had happened. They encouraged parents and children to grieve openly. 00.08.09 Eric Eimghellen We set up a team to work with the children on Monday and the rest of the week actually in this school. So everybody knew that if they came to the school they could get help. 00.08.20 Lawrence Lee So the children received counselling immediately did they? 00.08.22 Eric Eimghellen Yes. 00.08.24 Lawrence Lee That helped? 00.08.25 Eric Eimghellen It did. At least we think so and the way we worked directly to all children and professional people walked around during the school hours and helped and were there. If you needed someone you just had to tell and you got help. 00.08.44 Lawrence Lee The strategy worked. Amazingly there were no reprisals against the two boys or their families. They were able to carry on living on the estate. 00.08.53 Lawrence Lee Even Silje's mother, who bore the greatest burden of grief, was not vengeful. Quite different to what happened in Liverpool. 00.09.07 Beate Redergard Voice over I felt sympathy. I found it difficult to believe because I knew these boys. They had been in my house. I had been on the slopes with them, seen them playing with Silje so many times. 00.09.20 Lawrence Lee Did you blame them for what they did? 00.09.24 Beate Redergard Voice over I don't know who to blame - the children, their parents. What can I say, I don't know. 00.09.33 Lawrence Lee Would it have been easier for you if Silje had been killed by people older than these two boys? 00.09.39 Beate Redergard Voice over Yes, it would have been easier. I could have talked to them; I could have asked them why they did it. These two children are too young, they wouldn't understand. 00.09.56 Lawrence Lee Beate's compassion couldn't be in starker contrast to the Bulger case, where Jamie's family organised a petition, signed by a quarter of a million people and the Sun newspaper had a clip-out coupon urging the Home Secretary to keep the boys locked up for life. 00.10.11 Lawrence Lee In England the age of criminal responsibility is ten. But I wonder what does it achieve? 00.10.17 Lawrence Lee In my work in Liverpool I come into contact with a good deal of juvenile crime and I see the same kids time and time again going through the system, receiving different penalties. And ultimately one begins to ask does it work because all that happens is that they grow up through the system and become adult criminals. Now in Norway there seems to be a totally different situation. 00.10.40 Lawrence Lee In Norway children under fifteen can't be prosecuted and rarely appear in court under eighteen. 00.10.46 Lawrence Lee Here in Trondheim, after the boys confessed at the police station, they were allowed home whereas in my case Thompson and Venables were remanded in custody from the moment of their arrest. 00.10.59 Lawrence Lee Terje Lund, who led the investigation into Silje's death, says the idea of locking up children is abhorrent to the Norwegians. 00.11.08 Terje Lund No, I think if we had been doing such methods in Norway it would have been very, very strong reactions from the whole society. And I mean we are simply not allowed to do it. 00.11.23 Lawrence Lee The reaction of society in England was strong. But, as you may have heard, it was a very violent reaction. 00.11.29 Terje Lund Yes. 00.11.30 Lawrence Lee Again totally different from Norway. What do you think? 00.11.34 Terje Lund Now how should I comment on this? I really don't like to hear that you can put children, ten years old, into custody. I think it's meaningless. 00.11.50 Lawrence Lee How did the police view the boys? 00.11.51 Terje Lund Children have to be treated as human beings and they are quite soft. 00.11.58 Lawrence Lee So you didn't look upon them as criminals? 00.12.00 Terje Lund No. 00.12.01 Lawrence Lee In spite of the seriousness of the crime? 00.12.03 Terje Lund No. 00.12.06 Protestors 00.12.12 Lawrence Lee This had been the reaction to the first court appearance of Thompson and Venables. 00.12.16 Protestors 00.12.30 Lawrence Lee While this outburst of fury and anger was being vented, I was watching in horror and amazement from an upstairs window in South Sefton Magistrates Court. 00.12.38 Lawrence Lee It seemed like mob rule was taking over. I felt horrified that this could happen in my home city. 00.12.44 Shouting 00.12.46 Lawrence Lee In England the public reaction was incredible. The public took a hatred almost to the boys. Was there anything like that here in Norway? 00.12.57 Terje Lund No, not at all. I mean the public didn't show any anger. It was a calm reaction. 00.13.04 Shouting 00.13.12 Lawrence Lee Some people watching this would say that Norway is soft on crime. 00.13.16 Terje Lund No, not at all. I mean we are not using, we don't believe in punishment, we really believe in rehabilitation. So the main point for us is to bring the child back to the society by giving them education, put them on the right track so they can be good members of the society. 00.13.39 Piano Music 00.13.54 Lawrence Lee Rather than condemn and cast out the young killers, the Norwegians chose to embrace them back into the community. 00.14.01 Lawrence Lee Their psychologist believed it was essential to help them have as normal a life as possible. 00.14.06 Piano Music 00.14.15 Psychologist We decided that the best place to, to keep the children would be in kindergarten, together with other children and with other grown-ups. 00.14.26 Lawrence Lee What you say is incredible. If I went to my local pub in Penny Lane and explained to them that within a week of killing this little girl the boys were allowed back into kindergarten, everybody would be absolutely horrified. 00.14.38 Psychologist Its really got to do, something to do about how you think about what its like to be children, how to treat children. Because what we were concerned with was to do everything we could to prevent these children from developing further into dangerous and criminal individuals. And to do that you have to keep the children integrated in a normal environment. 00.15.04 Lawrence Lee What did the parents of the other children think? 00.15.06 Psychologist We invited all the parents of the children in kindergarten to a meeting where we informed them that these boys were starting kindergarten and that we would employ special people to look after the boys. So there would always be a grown up very close by these boys to look after them and prevent any kind of danger for the other children. 00.15.31 Lawrence Lee Did the other children know what these boys had done? 00.15.34 Psychologist I think some of the other children knew? We decided not to inform the children collectively but we informed the parents that they would inform their own children what they thought their children needed to know. So I think some of the other children knew quite well what had happened and some, and we also informed the people in the kindergarten to answer all questions from the children thoughtfully. 00.16.03 Lawrence Lee And did the other children accept these boys? 00.16.06 Psychologist Yes they accepted them. 00.16.07 Lawrence Lee And they played with them? 00.16.08 Psychologist Yes, they played with them just like any other children. 00.16.12 Lawrence Lee The boys in Norway were looked upon as victims as much as Silje and her family and were given immediate counselling. Quite different to my case. 00.16.20 Lawrence Lee I remember the first time I met Jon Venables at the police station. He may have taken part in a heinous murder but I couldn't believe how immature and vulnerable he looked. If ever there was a child who needed counselling this was he. But he didn't get it. 00.16.34 Psychologist How did the boys in England, did they get any kind of counselling or psychiatric help? 00.16.40 Lawrence Lee Well it's interesting because the first thing the police looked for in England was a lawyer rather than a psychiatrist to accompany them in the interview and that's how I became involved in the case. I received a phone call and there was no counselling involved between the time of their arrest and their appearance before the Crown Court of Preston nine months later. 00.16.58 Psychologist I see. And when you say that I remember one of the things that happened I think the day or the day after one of the boys started in kindergarten because he wanted to go for a walk. So he said to the man who was helping him in kindergarten shall we go for a walk? 00.17.19 Psychologist And he brought him to the place where Silje was killed. And they were sitting there together and they were talking about what had happened and in my view that is a very fine kind of help and counselling for this child to be able to tell a grown up what he had experienced. 00.17.38 Lawrence Lee Do you think, though, the fact that these boys in Norway weren't punished that they appreciated the enormity of what they'd done? 00.17.45 Psychologist Yes, I think they did because one of the things that we were talking to them about was what had really happened to Silje? What had they done to Silje? What did this mean? The boys have been to Silje's grave to make them realise that the fact that Silje was dead was real. 00.18.08 Psychologist And we know from our conversations with the children that they understand very well what happened and what they have done. 00.18.14 Lawrence Lee And you think they expressed remorse? 00.18.16 Psychologist Yes. 00.18.22 Lawrence Lee Beate, how do you cope with the fact that nobody was ever prosecuted for this terrible crime? 00.18.30 Beate Redergard Voice over It's very difficult. I think it would have been much easier to put it all behind me if someone had been punished for the crime but I don't think it's right to punish small children. 00.18.43 Lawrence Lee Beate rarely ventures outside nowadays. She's withdrawn into her own sanctuary. 00.18.48 Lawrence Lee The two boys meanwhile are at school. One is doing well and is not considered a danger to others. The second is still being closely supported by the welfare services. 00.19.04 Beate Redergard Voice over If these boys would have been treated like adults and locked up they would have lost out on so much - their grasp on reality, how society works. They most likely wouldn't cope with being put on the streets at the age of eighteen. Would they have learnt something? I don't think so. 00.19.35 Piano Music 00.19.48 Beate Redergard Voice over I think it's easier to cope if you feel kindness and concern rather than vengeance. 00.19.53 Piano Music 00.20.02 Lawrence Lee Do you think you could ever forgive the boys? 00.20.06 Beate Redergard Voice over Yes, I think so. I am quite sure of it. In time I know I will - in time. 00.20.12 Piano Music 00.20.31 Lawrence Lee At what age should our children lose their innocence and take on adult responsibility? Ten like in England or fifteen like in Norway? I don't know. 00.20.40 Piano Music 00.20.45 Lawrence Lee Clearly their system works for them - the statistics prove it. And maybe there are some things they can teach us. But I fear the social problems in our cities are now so deep-rooted that it's too late. We've missed our opportunity. 00.21.00 Lawrence Lee By the time they're ten, many of our children have already lost their innocence. 00.21.05 Piano Music 00.21.16 Edward Stourton Innocence: that word we so naturally associate with childhood. But what about those who've grown up without it, who've been orphaned or abandoned by their parents, or whose childhood has been corrupted by abuse. 00.21.27 Edward Stourton Well there's a boy's home here in Portugal, which is run along lines, which many professionals in the field would probably find very shocking. 00.21.33 Edward Stourton The children themselves have the responsibility of making the place tick. 00.21.37 Bell 00.21.42 Edward Stourton Morning, in a world without adults. 00.21.48 Edward Stourton Its name has a Victorian ring; this is the House of the Urchins. 00.21.53 Edward Stourton Some of them come here when they're just two or three. The older boys like Bruno, who's fourteen, pitch in to help the younger. 00.22.08 Bruno Voice over An urchin's a boy who's been abandoned and who's got no family. My mum abandoned me and went away, then the priest came and brought me here to the House of Urchins. 00.22.24 Bruno Voice over People take boys who've been abandoned and they stick them in here because they've got no place to live. 00.22.31 Boys Praying 00.22.35 Edward Stourton Everyone here has a story like Bruno's and there are around a hundred of them. This man - a priest, Padre Joao - represents almost the only adult supervision of their daily lives. 00.22.45 Boys Praying 00.22.47 Edward Stourton It's a heavy burden; these are boys deeply damaged by the past. 00.23.02 Padre Joao Voice over These children come from a world where there's a total and utter lack of love. Mainly they come from families that are totally broken. Couples who were never really couples and never really parents. 00.23.20 Edward Stourton The House of the Urchins was established in this sleepy rural town sixty years ago. The money comes from the church and charitable giving. The home guards its independence from the government jealously. 00.23.31 Edward Stourton There's an acute shortage of state children's homes in Portugal, so the state sends boys here but it has little to do with the way they're brought up. 00.23.41 Edward Stourton Their lives are formed instead by the ideals of this man, the late Padre Americo - a businessman turned priest with a philosophy, which challenges the contemporary trend towards professional supervision and therapy. 00.23.58 Padre Joao Voice over Each one of the big boys should try to act like an older brother, should try to help their younger brothers to become part of this family. That's why we must share all the tasks that need doing, just like in a family where all these jobs must get done. 00.24.20 Edward Stourton There's something seductive about their lives here. The boys come from tough, urban backgrounds and this spot was carefully chosen for its natural charms. 00.24.31 Edward Stourton They spend much of their spare time employed on the land; work is central to the philosophy. So too is discipline and like almost everything else, that's run by the boys themselves through a hierarchy of what are known as chefs - chiefs or prefects. 00.24.50 Claudio Subtitles Vittinio, leave the space of a palm... an open hand - more or less a palm. 00.24.56 Edward Stourton Claudio is the senior member of the triumvirate of top chiefs with overall responsibility for the smooth running of the home. 00.25.04 Edward Stourton He's been here since he was five. No one knows much about his family and he's now twenty. 00.25.12 Edward Stourton He was chosen for the job of chief by the other boys. 00.25.22 Claudio Voice over I've got all sorts of responsibilities. There are some exceptions but in general I handle everything involved in the normal running of the house. From the moment they get up to the moment they go to sleep they're my responsibility. 00.25.36 Marco Subtitles Get that leaf over there. 00.25.38 Edward Stourton Then there are the mini-chiefs like Marco, directing the cleaning detail by the orange trees. 00.25.44 Edward Stourton Marco's mother was a prostitute and he and his four brothers narrowly escaped death when the house where she'd left them alone caught fire. His sister was killed. 00.25.53 Edward Stourton In a more conventional home he would surely be a candidate for professional help. Here his therapies are responsibility and power. 00.26.02 Marco Subtitles Pick that up. Push off over there. 00.26.13 Edward Stourton As for sanctions - a common punishment is time sitting by the well. A bit like being sent to stand in the corner. 00.26.25 Boy Voice over This is the place where we get sent by the chiefs if we swear or climb over the walls or if we don't respect the chiefs. We don't like being here in the well because we lose all our time in the playground and we're really scared. 00.26.42 Edward Stourton It's at the meetings each evening that punishments are decided. 00.26.46 Edward Stourton Padre Joao usually leaves this up to the chiefs. 'Of Boys, For Boys, By Boys' is the home's motto and that includes the administration of justice. 00.26.57 Claudio Subtitles Who saw Pegash taking the almonds from the larder? Tell the story. 00.27.06 Boy 1 Subtitles On my way to get some clothes I saw him going through the drawers. He had something in his hand. 00.27.13 Claudio Subtitle Does anyone else know anything? 00.27.18 Boy 2 Subtitles After lunch I saw him with the almonds and he said not to tell anyone. 00.27.25 Edward Stourton They're called 'tribunals' - show trials might be more appropriate - although perhaps there was a little more show than usual because of our camera. 00.27.33 Edward Stourton The sentence can be corporal punishment. Carried out by one of the older boys here in front of the others. 00.27.42 Claudio Voice over Either with a bare hand or with a stick but it's always on the bottom and there's no breaking arms or injuring people. It's always done very carefully. 00.27.59 Claudio Voice over It's not easy but we do it so they feel ashamed of what they've done and also to make them understand they shouldn't do it again. They rarely do. 00.28.10 Claudio Subtitle What punishment do you think you deserve? 00.28.13 Pegash Subtitle To go to the box room and to sit in the well. 00.28.25 Claudio Subtitles Any of you could have been guilty of this. Now at dinner time, just have a bowl of soup... nothing else - no pudding. Sit down. 00.28.55 Padre Joao Voice over It would be impossible to live in a place with ninety five to one hundred boys if there wasn't a certain element of discipline - a tribunal. But this tribunal may decide not to decree physical punishment. 00.29.11 Padre Joao Voice over And sometimes slapping has got to do with a certain encouragement and a certain tenderness. The boy needs someone to tell him to behave, to encourage him. And that's the way to understand the kind of discipline we've adopted here. 00.29.34 Edward Stourton The school for the younger boys, which is attached to the home, is run by the state. 00.29.43 Boy 1 Subtitles The ant saw his friend landing at the top of the tree... 00.29.49 Edward Stourton This is the one place where the outside world, with its systems of regulation and supervision, does intrude directly in the life of the boy's home. 00.30.07 Teacher Subtitles What's the moral of this story? Bruno? You don't know? And you? 00.30.17 Boy 2 Subtitle Love is rewarded with love. 00.30.23 Edward Stourton The teachers believe a lack of individual female attention could distort the way the boys develop. One of them, Maria, speaks with the authority of personal experience - her husband Carlos Manuel grew up in the home himself. 00.30.41 Maria Voice over I've been here for thirty five years. One thing I've always noticed is the lack of affection towards the children. Carlos Manuel was really deprived emotionally. It's clear he really felt the lack of a mother figure. 00.31.01 Carlos Manuel Voice over You're touching a soft spot. What do you want me to say? 00.31.07 Teacher Voice over If someone could teach the boys to do their tasks properly then they could teach each other but the problem is that none of them are taught anything so they can't teach each other. 00.31.25 Edward Stourton It's an all-male institution with minimal professional supervision and most of the children carry mental scars. 00.31.32 Edward Stourton The system of giving some boys power over others can only increase the risk of sexual abuse. 00.31.43 Padre Joao Voice over Well it's a risk we take at the House of Urchins but it's a risk worth taking and I think the boys respond well. There are exceptions of course but overall they respect each other. They supervise and control each other even in situations to do with affection and sexuality. They're very restrained in situations, which could perhaps raise doubts or create problems. 00.32.16 Padre Joao Subtitle Can you see any birds up there in the trees? 00.32.22 Edward Stourton There are now five homes in Portugal run along these lines and three more in former Portuguese colonies in Africa. In some respects it seems like a liberal Utopian dream, in others it's almost Dickensian. 00.32.35 Edward Stourton At its heart is the idea that the way to restore these children's innocence is to teach them responsibility of adults. 00.32.47 Music 00.32.51 Padre Joao Voice over They arrive here knowing no rules, no authority, no love. 00.32.57 Music / Boys dancing 00.33.12 Padre Joao Voice over The education that we offer is to put trust in the boys. You can help yourself, you can get out of your rut and so comes responsibility and confidence. 00.33.21 Music / Boys dancing 00.33.30 Edward Stourton Our final story is about children taking power into their own hands and adults arguing about whose responsible for dealing with that. 00.33.37 Edward Stourton Imagine a school being closed for months because the parents and teachers are staging a round the clock sit-in in the classrooms. 00.33.44 Edward Stourton The reason: the adults say some of the children are so violent they can't cope. From northern France Jon Sopel reports. 00.33.55 Jon Sopel Monday night in Beauvais, fifty miles north of Paris, and a special patrol sets off to cruise the down at heel estates where juvenile delinquency has been soaring. 00.34.05 Police on radio 00.34.09 Jon Sopel The radio report is sketchy - an arson attack, no-one hurt. It turns out to be low-grade vandalism. 00.34.18 Jon Sopel A hedge and fence set alight with petrol and a bemused homeowner wondering why he's been singled out. Probably no reason. 00.34.33 Jon Sopel The police say that for the young it's all a bit of a game. 00.34.39 Aston OLIVIER CROUSET Beauvais Police Voice over These children enjoy starting fires. It's so they can watch the firemen and police arrive, it makes the streets more lively for them. 00.34.48 Jon Sopel Within stone throwing distance is Fauqueux School. The violence of the streets has come into the classroom and the teachers are taking an extraordinary stand. Unimaginable in Britain, the teachers have barricaded themselves in the school. Parents have joined in too. 00.35.07 Jon Sopel The Education Authority stopped us from filming inside so we gave the teachers their own camera to video their round the clock occupation. 00.35.18 Elodie Maurel Actually we are with the parents of our pupils and they help us in, in the strike. 00.35.29 Jon Sopel The school has become a makeshift home. There are no lessons, no classes, no homework and a place of learning has been transformed into a hostel. 00.35.38 Jon Sopel For teachers and parents this has become an adventure. 00.35.44 Jon Sopel Camping out in your own place of work. 00.35.49 Jon Sopel But there's steely resolve too. 00.35.51 Elodie Maurel I've got to say that I'm going to sleep at the college as long as our demands are not satisfied. So I'm really determined. 00.36.09 Jon Sopel This school had been subject to acts of random violence and intimidation. But the final straw was a full-scale riot after a teacher asked to search the bag of a female pupil. The result - two hundred children went on the rampage. 00.36.23 Aston ELODIE MAUREL Teacher All the adults were locked in all the rooms because the children were yelling, were just like really, really violent. We felt totally, we couldn't do anything. 00.36.38 Aston LOYS BONOD Teacher Everything was confused, the whole school was out of control and I've been hit by children from eleven years old to, don't know, fourteen years old, I think. 00.36.51 Jon Sopel And what and they kicked and punched you. 00.36.53 Loys Bonod Yeah, exactly. 00.36.57 Jon Sopel At eight am every day the nightshift packs up. 00.37.01 Parent Subtitle I'm tired! 00.37.10 Jon Sopel The crime rate is high in Beauvais, not helped by having hundreds of children hanging around the streets with nothing to do now that the school is on strike. 00.37.21 Jon Sopel Unemployment is high too. Teachers like Elodie Maurel have to cope with children who have unconventional role models. 00.37.29 Elodie Maurel You have really a weird situation of the people who have the father in jail or something like that. And the father is not here but you've got, in the place something like fascination for, for the one who's in jail. And the young people here respect the one who's been in jail. 00.37.57 Jon Sopel One solution is a special unit like this where difficult children are segregated from the rest of the school. This is education's last chance saloon. But it's fantastically expensive and labour intensive - two teachers for just five pupils. 00.38.15 Aston ALAIN HUETTE Teacher Voice over These kids often say no one listens to us but is that really the case. Perhaps there was no time for the teachers to listen to them because they had work to push through. If you're a failure at school you try to build yourself up in other ways. If you don't exist through school results then how do you exist? You do so by making noise, making yourself heard and becoming leader of a gang. 00.38.43 Jon Sopel I asked this boy why he was here. Well the teachers annoyed me, he said 00.38.54 Jon Sopel In Beauvais' schools, as in the rest of France, there are no form teachers like Britain. It's harder for teachers to build a relationship with the children and so assert their authority. 00.39.04 Jon Sopel One answer, they believe, is smaller class sizes. 00.39.09 Elodie Maurel We think that as teachers we can do something as long as we don't have twenty five, twenty six, twenty eight pupils in the classroom. 00.39.23 Jon Sopel Rosemarie Cremier is in a dilemma knowing that she's harming her daughter's education by keeping the occupation going. But believes the fight to get extra teachers is justification enough. 00.39.35 Jon Sopel Although, as she prepares to join another night shift, there is a flicker of doubt. 00.39.42 Rosemarie Voice over Tonight I'll be with the others. We'll have a small party for the big demonstration we're organising. We'll talk it through and see if we all still agree if we should continue the strike. We don't really know what's going to happen. 00.40.06 Jon Sopel The Education Authority is horrified. To them it's now the adults who are behaving irresponsibly. 00.40.18 Aston JACQUES KOOIJMAN School Inspector Voice over To occupy a college is to carry out an act of violence against education and from that point of view we'll continue to call for support and justice. Because at the heart of this is rights for everyone not just individuals. 00.40.34 Elodie Maurel It's a bit paradoxical, I know it. I know that people, pupils are in the streets, I know that we do something illegal but we have to do it to be heard. 00.40.48 Jon Sopel In France there's a point system for teachers based on experience and even whether you're married. The more you have the better schools you can go to. With none you end up here - in a poor neighbourhood with complex social problems. 00.41.03 Jon Sopel All the teachers that go to these sort of schools are very inexperienced, they are very new to teaching and what you need in schools like that are very experienced teachers. 00.41.21 Jacques Kooijman Voice over You're right, it's true that an experienced teacher may or may not be more efficient. But young teachers are often culturally closer to the children they teach and they can be very effective with them. 00.41.39 Jon Sopel The direct action is beginning to yield results. The Education Authority is offering one extra teacher but it's not enough and the mood is angry. 00.41.51 Rosemarie Voice over I'm really disappointed; I wasn't expecting that. If they'd offered two or three teachers but one, this isn't enough. They don't give a damn about us anyway. 00.42.07 Jon Sopel It's sometimes said that in France the streets are more powerful than parliament. And so the teachers and parents put this to the test. 00.42.17 Rosemarie Voice over We want our kids to go back to school but there's been no deal so we'll continue. We didn't get what we asked for. 00.42.25 Demonstrators shouting 00.42.29 Demonstrators Subtitle All together - yes, yes! 00.42.32 Jon Sopel It may seem extraordinary but the strategy worked. This school won extra resources. Nationwide teacher dissatisfaction brought the Education Minister's dismissal. 00.42.42 Demonstrators shouting 00.42.46 Jon Sopel But for some it's too late. 00.42.50 Loys Bonod In these conditions it's not thinkable to continue, that's all. I'm too young and I haven't got any authority, I'm not strong, I'm not, I can't, I can't manage in fact. I can't do anything; I can't cope with it. 00.43.17 Jon Sopel These children may have returned but across France there are reports of daily violence and fresh occupations. The French education system, once famed for its discipline and excellence, is struggling in a world where a child's education is the passport to the future. 00.43.38 Edward Stourton Three very different approaches to bringing up the next generation of Europeans. 00.43.42 Edward Stourton Our theme next week is one that's seldom out of the headlines these days - our genes. I've been talking to the Italian fertility doctor who treated the world's oldest mother and now wants to start cloning humans. 00.43.53 Edward Stourton In Sardinia the science writer Matt Bridley investigates the latest project to explore the genetic map. 00.43.58 Edward Stourton And the Nazi master race that never was. 00.44.01 Edward Stourton Until then - goodbye. 00.43.42 Credits Production Team MARTHA ESTCOURT FIONA LAWSON-BAKER NICK DODD DAVID LINES VANESSA VARTANIAN VT Editor BOYD NAGLE Graphic Designer NICOLA OWEN Production Manager JANE WILLEY Unit Manager IRENE OZGA Cameras CHARLES ROSS RUNE SANDNES FRED SCOTT Sound ERIK VOLD Researchers KAREN AARRE GINETTE BERBER VIRGINIA MUCCHI HELENA POZNIAK Picture Editors DAVID HOWELL BERNARD LYALL JANET SPILLER Producers NICK HUDSON GUY SMITH Series Producer LUCY HETHERINGTON 00.44.03 End Music 00.44.07 Editor FIONA MURCH (c) BBC MM 00.44.09 End BBC Correspondent 21 1