Correspondent: Brother Number Two Enjoys Retirement Tx Date: 17th March 2002 This script was made from audio tape – any inaccuracies are due to voices being unclear or inaudible 00.00.00 Music 00.00.05 Phil Rees My destination was a meeting with a man responsible for mass murder. 00.00.09 Music 00.00.11 Phil Rees His code-name was Brother Number Two. He was Pol Pot's deputy during the murderous frenzy of the Killing Fields. 00.00.18 Music 00.00.23 Phil Rees Hundreds of thousands were executed and more than a million died from starvation and disease. 00.00.28 Music 00.00.31 Phil Rees The United Nations spent five years trying to set up a War Crimes Tribunal in Cambodia – it has now given up. Brother Number Two is confident and self-righteous. 00.00.44 Brother Number Two Voice over I am not worried. I want to be clean. I want to be pure to show my people that I'm a good man. 00.00.54 Phil Rees A searing anguish has scarred Cambodia. Yet, a quarter of a century after the slaughter, the men responsible for the Killing Fields are free and their victims remain unavenged. 00.01.09 Chum Mey Voice over Please, seek justice for me. I appeal to democratic countries, human rights groups, the United Nations. Please find justice for me. I am still suffering. 00.01.29 Correspondent Theme Music 00.01.39 Title Page Brother Number Two Enjoys Retirement 00.01.48 Phil Rees On an isolated hillside in Northern Cambodia, the remains of Pol Pot – Brother Number One. 00.01.57 Aston April 1998 00.02.02 Phil Rees The funeral pyre had included his favourite rattan chair. 00.02.09 Phil Rees He died in suspicious circumstances after the Communist Party that he led, known as the Khmer Rouges, finally surrendered and disbanded. 00.02.22 Phil Rees Pol Pot was ousted from power in 1979 but for nearly two decades the Khmer Rouges fought a civil war from the jungles of north west Cambodia. 00.02.33 Phil Rees His cremation site is as bizarre and bewildering as his life. 00.02.37 Phil Rees Amongst the beer cans and cigarette ends is the toilet that Pol Pot used during his final days. 00.02.45 Phil Rees The government now plans to turn it into a tourist attraction. 00.02.50 Aston THIS WILL BE PRESERVED AS AN HISTORIC SITE Department of Tourism 00.02.56 Phil Rees The ghosts of Pol Pot's demonic rule still haunt this nation. There is a profound sense that there has been no closure on the events that traumatised Cambodia during his government. 00.03.08 Phil Rees Nuon Chea, Pol Pots' loyal deputy and Brother Number Two, is now the most senior surviving member of a secretive committee that ordered the turmoil. 00.03.20 Phil Rees In the archives of a former prison run by the Khmer Rouges there is a library of death. 00.03.26 Phil Rees The final testimonies of thousands of men and women, written while tortured, completed just before their execution. 00.03.33 Phil Rees Amongst these ghostly confessions I found evidence that could convict Brother Number Two. 00.03.40 Phil Rees The United Nations abandoned its attempt to set up a War Crimes Tribunal because it couldn't agree with the Cambodian government over key legal procedures. 00.03.49 Phil Rees So I decided to gather evidence myself and discover what Brother Number Two would say, were he ever brought to trial. 00.03.55 Music 00.04.04 Phil Rees The journey to find the reclusive Khmer Rouges leader led me to an area that his guerrillas had controlled for two decades. 00.04.12 Phil Rees The Khmer Rouges survived for so long because it was backed by western powers and then armed by China during the Cold War. 00.04.19 Phil Rees It's a reminder that few of the participants in Cambodia's recent history have clean hands. 00.04.25 Music 00.04.29 Phil Rees We travelled through a land scarred by decades of war. Villagers live among land mines. 00.04.41 Phil Rees The murders of the Khmer Rouges are rarely discussed. There has been no confrontation between victims and the perpetrators of the violence. 00.04.52 Phil Rees Killers live side by side with relatives of their victims. 00.04.59 Phil Rees In the past the outside world has used Cambodia's people as pawns in regional conflicts. Its own leaders have made deals rather than seek justice for its people. 00.05.10 Music 00.05.13 Phil Rees Many are wary of any re-examination of Cambodia's recent history. 00.05.18 Music 00.05.21 Phil Rees That's why justice has been ignored for a quarter of a century. 00.05.24 Music 00.05.27 Phil Rees We travelled from the capital Phnom Penh, to Pailin, the largest town that was once a Khmer Rouges stronghold. 00.05.35 Phil Rees It now flies the flag of a unified Cambodia, yet former Khmer Rouges commanders still control the city. 00.05.43 Phil Rees The Khmer Rouges was never entirely defeated, almost twenty years of civil war ended only when the town's masters made a deal with the regime in Phnom Penh. Khmer Rouges soldiers simply changed sides. War crimes were overlooked. 00.06.00 Phil Rees Several former Khmer Rouges leaders live in Pailin. Along a side street the house of the former Head of State. 00.06.09 Phil Rees Opposite; the home of the regime's Foreign Minister. 00.06.15 Aston December 1998 00.06.15 Phil Rees After Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two, surrendered, he was given a fond reception by his former enemy and Cambodia's current Prime Minister, Hun Sen. 00.06.24 Phil Rees Hun Sen has obstructed the creation of an internationally controlled War Crimes Tribunal. As a young man he was a Khmer Rouges soldier himself. He says Cambodia will hold a trial but charge only a select few. 00.06.38 Music 00.06.43 Phil Rees A short drive from Pailin towards the border with Thailand is where I found Nuon Chea's house. 00.06.50 Phil Rees He and his wife live simply but there are guards to turn away unwelcome visitors. 00.06.55 Music 00.06.58 Phil Rees Nuon Chea agreed to give his account of the Killing Fields and was in carefree mood. 00.07.05 Phil Rees He appeared unconcerned – and surprised that anyone might consider him guilty of war crimes or genocide. 00.07.14 Aston NUON CHEA Brother Number Two Voice over What are war crimes and what is genocide? I still don't understand. Therefore to say whether I'm worried – no, not yet. So please explain to me; what are war crimes? War crimes mean that we've waged war against another country. We haven't. And genocide? We never had any reason to kill our own race. 00.07.40 Phil Rees I was to discover that talking to Nuon Chea was somewhat surreal, like opening a series of Babushka dolls. 00.07.50 Phil Rees Much of the time it seemed that he didn't take very seriously his role in the death of well over a million people. 00.08.00 Nuon Chea Voice over Good humour is in my nature; it's my habit. If they have evidence to convict me then that's fine by me; that's justice. I am now seventy-six, how long can they imprison me? If they jail me for twenty years then I'll be ninety-six. 00.08.24 Phil Rees It is the story of what took place inside this former school that could convict Nuon Chea. 00.08.32 Phil Rees The Tuol Sleng secondary school was turned into the Khmer Rouges' secret prison, code-named S-21. 00.08.38 Music 00.08.43 Phil Rees It became the regime's chief interrogation centre. 00.08.46 Music 00.08.49 Phil Rees Some of the confessions discovered here, voices from the Killing Fields, form a paper trail that could link Nuon Chea to torture and mass murder. 00.08.58 Music 00.09.00 Phil Rees A key witness in Nuon Chea's trial would be the governor of S-21, who was known as Duch. 00.09.07 Phil Rees He is one of only two former Khmer Rouges cadre, or soldiers, who are in custody and awaiting trial for war crimes. 00.09.15 Music 00.09.16 Phil Rees At that time Duch was operating a secret killing machine. 00.09.19 Music 00.09.23 Phil Rees More than sixteen thousand people were executed here. Only seven prisoners left S-21 alive. 00.09.32 Phil Rees One was a painter called Vann Nath. He'd spent a year in the jail. 00.09.37 Music 00.09.42 Aston VANN NATH Prisoner, S-21 Voice over There was a list that Duch used to decide which person should be killed, which person should be kept alive. On the list he circled my name and wrote 'keep for use' next to it. The rest he marked 'to be destroyed'. That's how I survived. When I saw the list after my release I was shocked that I'd survived because of just one sentence - 'keep for use'. Otherwise my life would have ended there. 00.10.25 Phil Rees His use was to paint propaganda pictures of Pol Pot, Brother Number One. His art saved his life. 00.10.35 Phil Rees As a prisoner Vann Nath witnessed daily horror. When he was freed, he captured on canvas memories of the treatment of fellow inmates. 00.10.42 Music 00.10.48 Vann Nath Voice over He was carried like an animal. I heard him speaking while they carried him. He didn't scream but he didn't speak like a human being. He was barely alive. He'd lost his mind. He wasn't in a state to know his pain. 00.11.05 Music 00.11.12 Vann Nath Voice over There were between thirty and fifty prisoners in my room. If we wanted to sit up we had to ask permission from the guards, otherwise we had to remain lying like that. 00.11.21 Music 00.11.29 Phil Rees Another prisoner who survived S-21 was Chum Mey. 00.11.33 Music 00.11.39 Chum Mey Voice over If we wanted to turn over and sleep on the other side we had to ask for permission first. If we did it without asking for permission and made a noise with the shackles we would be whipped fifty or a hundred times. 00.11.51 Music 00.12.08 Aston PRAK KORN Interrogator, S-21 Voice over When we were told to torture the prisoners we used small branches taken from trees to whip them. Then sometimes we electrocuted them. Some had their heads put in plastic bags. Some where held under water. The torture was different from one prisoner to another. 00.12.42 Phil Rees The leadership of the Khmer Rouges created S-21 because it was obsessed with traitors and conspirators from within its ranks. It ruled in near total secrecy. 00.12.53 Phil Rees For two years, few inside and even fewer outside Cambodia knew who was in charge. 00.13.01 Phil Rees It turned out that Nuon Chea was the Deputy General Secretary of the Communist Party - Brother Number Two. 00.13.09 Phil Rees He was usually seen one step behind Pol Pot, the Party General Secretary - Brother Number One. 00.13.17 Phil Rees Nuon Chea's fixation with traitors developed during his years as a revolutionary in Cambodia's jungles. 00.13.24 Aston 1973 00.13.24 Phil Rees The Khmer Rouges grew in strength after Cambodia became involved in the war in neighbouring Vietnam. The United States bombed Cambodia killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. In the chaos, the guerrilla movement prospered. 00.13.38 Phil Rees The Khmer Rouges recruited and educated youngsters. They were told to give up family ties and obey only the Party. It instilled a belief that violence was a virtue. 00.13.48 Phil Rees The torturers who later worked at S-21 began as young soldiers. 00.13.57 Aston PRAK KORN Interrogator, S-21 Voice over All young men and women had to go to the battlefields; no one could stay at home. They taught us how bad feudalism and capitalism were. They said we had to fight to liberate our nation and our class from these oppressors. 00.14.16 Aston April 1975 00.14.17 Phil Rees When the Khmer Rouges captured the capital, Phnom Penh, the nature of its political project was to emerge. 00.14.25 Phil Rees It believed the urban population were parasites, living off the peasant farmers. They were ordered to leave Phnom Penh. 00.14.39 Phil Rees All of Cambodia's cities were emptied. One of the most radical social experiments of the twentieth century was to begin. 00.14.57 Phil Rees It was an attempt to create utopia overnight. The old class structure would be demolished and an idealised pure communist society would rise from the ruins. 00.15.08 Phil Rees Cambodia closed its borders and forced its people to work in communes. 00.15.14 Phil Rees No one could own property; money was banned. Marriages were arranged by the party. 00.15.22 Aston NUON CHEA Brother Number Two Voice over We used collectivisation to build up our economy. We created a new type of party cadre to nurture the idea that people should love working in order to build up the country. 00.15.46 Prak Korn Voice over If people fell in love without telling their commune chiefs, when it was discovered, the two lovers would be imprisoned or killed. 00.15.59 Phil Rees The Khmer Rouges was inspired by Mao's Cultural Revolution in China. Young people were considered blank pages on which a revolution could be inscribed. Mao wrote; 'a clean sheet of paper has no blotches'. 00.16.13 Phil Rees Nuon Chea still has pride in his ideology. 00.16.18 Nuon Chea Voice over We purified their minds through education. Firstly through education at school, secondly through sending them to work in the fields. 00.16.28 Music 00.16.41 Nuon Chea Voice over When we'd educated them, then they understood and trusted us. They made our party stronger. 00.16.51 Phil Rees There were gargantuan schemes to build canals and divert rivers. All city dwellers were turned into agricultural workers and forced to labour in fields from dawn till dusk. 00.17.06 Phil Rees But the grand schemes failed. 00.17.10 Phil Rees The wrong type of rice was often planted. Farmers could no longer grow their own food. Disaster loomed. 00.17.19 Phil Rees When hunger swept the country, the leadership explained the failure by accusing individuals of treachery. 00.17.26 Phil Rees Nuon Chea retains the belief that the revolution would have succeeded had enemies not sabotaged it. 00.17.37 Nuon Chea Voice over There were some unfriendly people who made themselves enemies of our country. They were destroying the process of building up our nation. They took any opportunity they could to harm our people and destroy the communes. 00.17.59 Music 00.18.05 Phil Rees One million died from starvation or ill health. 00.18.08 Music 00.18.11 Phil Rees The regime's obsession with betrayal became all consuming. Enemies were thought to be everywhere. 00.18.16 Music 00.18.18 Phil Rees Commune chiefs killed for trivial acts. The starving were executed for stealing food. 00.18.23 Music 00.18.32 Prak Korn Voice over Someone who ate his own crop would be accused of betraying the commune. If a farmer broke a harrow, he would also be accused of being an enemy who was trying to destroy the revolution. At that time if he lost a tool he would face a death sentence. 00.18.58 Music 00.19.05 Phil Rees Despite the stench of death that overwhelmed Cambodia, there is no documented evidence such as written directives that prove that Brother Number Two or the other leaders ordered the killing. 00.19.17 Music 00.19.21 Phil Rees Nuon Chea now explains the annihilation of nearly a quarter of the Cambodian nation as a policy error. 00.19.29 Phil Rees Most of the evidence now points to about one point seven million people having died during the regime that you were the deputy in charge of. Surely you can account for why these people died and how they died? 00.19.50 Nuon Chea Voice over I know that some people died of starvation but that was beyond our capacity to solve. We tried our best but it was out of the control of our party. We didn't kill people; we didn't want people to die. We tried to find a solution to the economy and to the living standards of the people. But how many people died no one knows. Some say one point seven million but they don't have statistics, they just say it. 00.20.19 Phil Rees In S-21 the statistics of death were documented in detail. It is here that the case against Brother Number Two could begin. 00.20.28 Music 00.20.30 Phil Rees The leadership was becoming increasingly paranoid. It arrested waves of Khmer Rouges cadre, believing that foreign governments were recruiting spies within its ranks. 00.20.39 Music 00.20.43 Phil Rees The revolution began to devour its own children. 00.20.47 Phil Rees Its failure blamed on traitors. 00.20.49 Music 00.20.54 Phil Rees Chum Mey had been working as a mechanic for the Khmer Rouges when he was arrested and questioned. 00.21.05 Chum Mey Voice over The interrogator sat at a table nearby with a typewriter. He asked; 'You the traitor, when did you join the CIA and when did you join the KGB? Who introduced you? How many of you are there?' And I said; 'I don't know, I don't know'. 00.21.23 Music 00.21.29 Chum Mey Voice over Then he said; 'If you refuse to confess I'll beat you death you mother…. You must tell the truth then I won't kill you. If not I must kill you.' But how could I confess when I didn't know what the CIA or KGB were. So he kept beating me, the first day, the second day, the third day and the fourth day. 00.21.51 Music 00.21.59 Prak Korn Voice over They screamed when I tortured them. Their bodies were twisted in pain. They bit their lips. They screamed even though it was not permitted. I felt pity for them but I dared not show it. If I hadn't done it I would have been killed. 00.22.26 Music 00.22.33 Chum Mey Voice over Then he took out a pair of pliers to twist and pull out my toenails while my leg was shackled. When I still refused to confess anything he twisted and pulled out the toenails of my other foot. 00.22.49 Music 00.22.56 Chum Mey Voice over Finally he electrocuted me till I fainted. When I came round, he asked me again to confess. I didn't know what to say, so I just confessed to anything so that he wouldn't beat me. 00.23.15 Music 00.23.17 Phil Rees Chum Mey wrote in his confession that he was working for the CIA and had recruited dozens of agents in Cambodia. 00.23.24 Music 00.23.26 Phil Rees It was of course all a fiction. 00.23.30 Phil Rees But he also gave the names of sixty-eight acquaintances, innocent men and women who would soon be arrested, tortured and murdered. 00.23.42 Chum Mey Voice over I realised that I was guilty of implicating other people and I begged that God forgive me if anybody else was tortured like I was. I want to beg that God release me from this sin. 00.23.53 Music 00.24.04 Chum Mey Voice over People who had been arrested and killed previously had implicated me and I implicated others. So did other people. It was just like rear waves pushing the front waves forward. So people would die one after another, after another, after another. 00.24.25 Music 00.24.33 Phil Rees One of the guards at S-21 was Him Huy. Believing that he'll never face trial he has admitted killing two thousand people. 00.24.44 Him Huy Voice over We pushed them onto the trucks. 00.24.47 Music 00.24.49 Phil Rees Every evening, a truck delivered a batch of prisoners to the killing field. 00.24.53 Music 00.25.00 Aston HIM HUY Prison Guard, S-21 Voice over I wrote down the names of the prisoners and sent them one after another to the killing place. The prisoners were blindfolded and handcuffed when they were walked there. We told them that we were taking them somewhere else. 00.25.23 Him Huy Voice over When they reached the pit, we told the prisoners to sit and then they were hit with a cart axle from behind. Then their throats were cut, their handcuffs were removed and they were kicked into the pit. 00.25.37 Music 00.25.47 Phil Rees The governor of S-21, Duch, never killed anyone himself. He issued the orders. 00.25.54 Him Huy Voice over Duch said; 'Comrade Huy, are you ready to kill them now?' 00.26.02 Him Huy Voice over I said I was ready. So I took a cart axle and hit the prisoners on the back of the neck. 00.26.08 Music 00.26.15 Him Huy Voice over It varied, sometimes there were fifteen people, at other times as many as forty a night. 00.26.21 Music 00.26.29 Him Huy Voice over Prisoners were killed one after another. For example, if killing started at seven it would finish at about nine or ten o'clock. 00.26.40 Phil Rees Each prisoner was numbered and documented. The governor of S-21, Duch, wanted to provide the leadership a detailed record of the enemies within. 00.26.51 Phil Rees The names of anyone known to the prisoner would be extracted under torture. Confessions led to more arrests. Arrests led to more confessions. 00.27.03 Him Huy Voice over They would arrest and kill the entire families of alleged traitors. No one was spared. They would arrest the wives, husbands and children and even brothers, sisters and other relatives. 00.27.14 Music 00.27.16 Phil Rees Children were shown no mercy. 00.27.18 Music 00.27.28 Vann Nath Voice over Soon after arresting the mothers, soldiers would take the children away. 00.27.33 Him Huy Voice over I would send off children aged seven or eight years old. 00.27.37 Music 00.27.45 Him Huy Voice over They were killed in the same way as the adults. The children were also blindfolded and their hands were tied behind their backs. 00.27.57 Music 00.28.08 Phil Rees Babies were brought in with their mothers. 00.28.13 Phil Rees And then taken away by the prison guards. 00.28.23 Aston VANN NATH Prisoner, S-21 Voice over When I heard scuffling, it was the mothers refusing to give their babies to them. I heard the mothers and babies crying. Then I heard people being hit. 00.28.40 Vann Nath Voice over Later I saw guards carrying three, four or five babies in their arms. I met one of the men who took those babies away. It was Him Huy. He said the babies were taken to their deaths. 00.29.01 Him Huy Voice over The babies were killed as well – they weren't spared. 00.29.19 Aston NUON CHEA Brother Number Two Voice over I don't know S-21. I only knew the number; I have no idea where it's situated. Some call it Tuol Sleng. If I'm asked to find it, I don't know where it is. 00.29.37 Phil Rees To establish that Nuon Chea was criminally responsible it must be proved that, at the very least, he knew about the killing at S-21 and did nothing to stop it. 00.29.48 Phil Rees While his guilt may at first appear obvious, a legal conviction would require specific case evidence. And such evidence does exist, documents with comments indicating that Nuon Chea had received them. 00.29.58 Aston "Sent to Brother Nuon personally" 00.30.00 Music 00.30.05 Phil Rees A confession from a Khmer Rouges officer named Nhiem Sim included a note from his interrogator. It describes torturing a prisoner 'until he confessed that he was involved in the CIA'. It was passed to Nuon Chea. 00.30.18 Phil Rees I have a document here. It's the confession of the central zone, division one seven four commander, Nhiem Sim and it includes a note with this written on the top 'one copy to Brother Nuon. 00.30.31 Nuon Chea Voice over No, I never had such a report. 00.30.36 Phil Rees It's got written on it there 'a copy to Brother Nuon'. 00.30.45 Nuon Chea Voice over I don't know who wrote it. What? They sent a report. I don't know of this, I've never seen it. Sometimes they wrote that but I've never seen it. 00.31.03 Phil Rees You never saw it? 00.31.05 Phil Rees Here's another document. It's the confession of Kong Kim and this document talks of many cadres being killed in S-21 and a note in the corner of it says that it was presented to Brother Nuon personally. 00.31.36 Nuon Chea Voice over I don't know this. These documents could be forged. 00.31.43 Phil Rees There is also the key witness who could secure Nuon Chea's conviction, Duch, the governor of S-21. 00.31.51 Phil Rees He was discovered three years ago working for an aid agency, he had converted to Christianity and was eager to admit responsibility for mass murder. Before his arrest he spoke about Nuon Chea's role at S-21. 00.32.03 Music 00.32.06 Phil Rees One case, at the end of 1978, concerned Khmer Rouges soldiers who were involved in border clashes with Vietnam. Duch said that Nuon Chea ordered the arrest of three hundred men accusing them of siding with the enemy. 00.32.20 Phil Rees Duch complained that S-21 was already full. Nuon Chea called him. 00.32.25 Phil Rees Duch says that you called to meet him and you told Duch, you said; 'don't bother to interrogate them, just kill them'. 00.32.39 Nuon Chea Voice over No, I did not. I am not so cruel as to kill my people because soldiers are children of farmers, poor farmers. I am not cruel. I don't want to kill people in the army. So I never gave such an answer because I have the heart of a creator not a destroyer. 00.33.08 Phil Rees Of the three most powerful Khmer Rouges leaders, it was Son Sen, sometimes called Brother Number Three, who was officially in charge of internal security, including S- 21. 00.33.20 Phil Rees Son Sen is dead, murdered by Pol Pot shortly before he died. 00.33.26 Phil Rees But according to Duch, it was Nuon Chea who took direct control over S-21 towards the end of 1978. 00.33.34 Phil Rees Duch says that he was directly taking orders from you because Son Sen had taken control of the fighting in the East and that you were personally in charge then of S-21. 00.33.49 Nuon Chea Voice over No, not me. I was never in charge of S-21. But, yes, it was probably when Son Sen was not there and they left the documents for me and I simply passed them on to Son Sen or Pol Pot. That was all. That's how Duch communicated with me. 00.34.14 Nuon Chea Voice over Pol Pot was the Party Secretary. I was just Deputy Secretary and sometimes I had no influence. You must understand how the Standing Committee of the Communist Party worked. 00.34.34 Nuon Chea Voice over Pol Pot was Party Secretary. 00.34.42 Phil Rees One interrogator from S-21, who is still tormented, provides a different account based upon what Duch was saying at the time. 00.34.53 Phil Rees Did Duch ever mention who was giving him the orders? 00.35.02 Aston PRAK KORN Interrogator, S-21 Voice over He said it was Brother Number One or Brother Number Two but he didn't say the names of the brothers. 00.35.10 Phil Rees So he clearly said it was Brother Number One, that is Pol Pot and Brother Number Two, Nuon Chea, those were the people giving him the orders? 00.35.23 Prak Korn Voice over Yes, but at that time I didn't know their names. 00.35.28 Phil Rees Now, we know that Brother Number One referred to Pol Pot, Brother Number Two referred to Nuon Chea. So that means that from your understanding, at that time, it was those two men who were giving Duch the orders? 00.35.46 Prak Korn Voice over Yes. 00.35.52 Singing 00.35.59 Phil Rees It is not only the torturers but also many of the survivors of the killing fields who are suffering guilt. They lived because they lied, stole food from friends or gave their loyalty to the Khmer Rouges. 00.36.11 Singing 00.36.14 Phil Rees There was no struggle then; the level of terror was too high. The Khmer Rouges imposed a psychology of dependence upon a generation. 00.36.27 Chum Mey Voice over I worked very hard for them. I didn't dare to break even a saw. But they still jailed me and tortured me. 00.36.37 Singing 00.36.49 Phil Rees For most Cambodians, the memory of this period is a shameful one of submission and fear. Men and women were unable to protect their own families. 00.36.58 Singing 00.37.00 Phil Rees Chum Mey survived S-21 but immediately faced another tragedy. When he joined up with his wife, Khmer Rouges soldiers came for them. They were separated. 00.37.16 Chum Mey Voice over I hid myself in the forest. Then I realised that my wife had been killed. I shouldn't have run away and left my wife behind. I shouldn't have left her. But what could I do? My wife died tragically. They were so barbaric and brutal. 00.38.10 Phil Rees Do you understand that some people who have lost their husband, who have lost their children, their fathers, their mothers during the rule of your government, that they want justice, that they want to bring you to trial? 00.38.29 Nuon Chea Voice over I am not worried. I want to be clean. I want to be pure to show my people that I'm a good man. 00.38.39 Phil Rees Do you feel all these years that somehow you've been totally misunderstood and that the whole world is making false allegations and that almost everybody else has got it wrong? 00.38.54 Nuon Chea Voice over I don't mind them because I know there's no justice on this planet but there is truth. There's no justice. 00.39.04 Phil Rees There are mass graves around Cambodia, killing fields, who is in those graves then, I mean who are the people who were killed? 00.39.17 Nuon Chea Voice over I don't know who they are because the situation was very chaotic. During the war we don't know how many were killed. During our regime, while we built up the country for three years, we didn't know. They could have been people who died of starvation but how many, we don't know. 00.39.37 Phil Rees He then makes an admission; a professional oversight for which he does accept responsibility. 00.39.47 Nuon Chea Voice over I wasn't responsible for ordering anything. But I have a moral responsibility, I have a moral responsibility. I'm sorry but I wasn't close enough to the work. I said I was morally sorry because I didn't examine the work closely. 00.40.17 Phil Rees Have you ever stayed awake at night, or shed a few tears because of what went wrong? 00.40.29 Nuon Chea Voice over I've spent time thinking of the past but I've never hidden myself away or shed any tears. I'm just an ordinary person; I've not reached enlightenment. So whatever ordinary people think, I think the same as them. When my parents died I was sorry. When my people died I was also sorry. I am sorry for everything because I have not yet reached enlightenment like the Buddha. 00.41.11 Music 00.41.16 Phil Rees On the Buddhist hold day marking respect for ancestors, relatives offer symbolic gifts to those who perished during the Khmer Rouges regime. 00.41.24 Music 00.41.27 Phil Rees There are shrines to the victims throughout Cambodia. Paper money and passports are ceremonially burnt. It is hoped these will ease the passage to rebirth for the lost souls of the Killing Fields. 00.41.39 Music 00.41.41 Phil Rees Relatives are not demanding revenge, Buddhism teaches that revenge will take place in the next life. Instead they search for remorse from the guilty. 00.41.49 Music 00.41.51 Phil Rees The Cambodian government was unwilling to agree to the United Nations' demand that international law should apply at a war crimes trial. 00.42.00 Phil Rees It means that all but a few of the murderers will escape justice. Brother Number Two will probably continue to enjoy retirement. 00.42.08 Music 00.42.16 Phil Rees For a quarter of a century this nation has been shackled by a failure to understand. Why did Cambodians murder so many of their fellow men, women and children? 00.42.27 Phil Rees While Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two, denies his role in the slaughter, the past cannot be put to rest. 00.42.40 Vann Nath Voice over Nuon Chea says he didn't know and the others say they didn't know. So we don't know why the Cambodian people died. How then can they ever compensate us for our loss? 00.43.02 Chum Mey Voice over If there is no trial there will be no peace. Cambodia must have a trial. The victims' relatives have suffered such pain. 00.43.22 Chum Mey Voice over If they don't confess their crimes there will be no end to this tragedy. 00.43.33 Phil Rees Nuon Chea has no intention of confessing. 00.43.39 End Music 00.43.44 Voice over For more information on tonight's programme please visit our web site at: www.bbc.co.uk/correspondent 00.43.40 Reporter PHIL REES Camera FRANCIS SMITH Dubbing Mixer PHITZ HEARNE VT Editor NICK KAMPA Graphic Design NICOLA OWEN Production Team ALEXANDRA CAMERON EMMA CASHMORE SARAH EVA ANJANA SHARMA Production Manager JANE WILLEY Unit Manager IRENE OZGA Film Research NICK DODD Assistant Producer CHRISTINE CHAUMEAU Picture Editor SIMON GREENWOOD Series Producer SIMON FINCH Directed & Produced by FRANCIS SMITH Deputy Editor FARAH DURRANI 00.43.51 Voice over On Tuesday this week after Newsnight, a Correspondent Special. The story of a paedophile priest and the Bishop who failed to stop him. Denied justice from the Church the victims are now suing the Pope. 00.44.05 Editor FIONA MURCH BBC © BBC MMII 00.44.09 End BBC Correspondent 1 1