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MONEY BOX LIVE

Presenter:	VINCENT DUGGLEBY


TRANSMISSION	31st JANUARY 2005             3.00-3.30pm          RADIO 4



DUGGLEBY:	Good afternoon.  As the banks get set to report what are likely 
to be record profits, we’d like to hear your views on the service they offer – good, bad 
or indifferent.  The big banks have certainly taken a lot of stick in recent years and the 
Treasury Select Committee’s about to launch yet another enquiry, this time into fee 
charging for cash machines.  Many people don’t seem to realise that whereas using 
the machine outside their local branch or another one in the same group is generally 
free, if you go to the supermarket or petrol station or indeed the Post Office, you 
could be charged anything up to £5.  Other causes for complaints centre on delays in 
clearing a cheque.  Surely with modern technology this day and age, it should take 
hours and not days?  Then there’s the advent of chip and PIN cards, which do away 
with signatures at the point of sale.  But fraud is still a worry and what happens if you 
can’t remember your PIN number, we’ve been asked by e-mailers.  You can call 
Money Box Live on 08700 100 444 and tell us about your concerns.  And one of my 
guests, Seymour Fortescue, is in a good position to judge whether you’ve been let 
down by the system.  He’s chief executive of the Banking Code Standards Board and 
responsible for the new code, which is due to come into force in a month’s time.  This 
will now include basic accounts to tackle so-called financial exclusion, credit card 
repayment warnings and what happens if your local branch closes, as well as the 
existing rules on things like direct debits and bank charges generally.  Also with me in 
the studio is Sandra Quinn from APACS, the body which handles payments and 
cheque clearing, and Louise Hanson from the consumer organisation, Which?  08700 
100 444 is the number and Jenny you’re first on the line.
JENNY:	Thank you.  Mine was a question about cheque clearance.  I 
just wanted to ask why does a cheque take so long to clear into our accounts when our 
balance is available in microseconds with IT systems as they are?

DUGGLEBY:	Okay, well before I ask Sandra who’s from APACS, let’s ask 
you quickly, Seymour.  Is there anything in the code, which says how long a cheque 
or the maximum time a cheque should take to clear?

FORTESCUE:	Well what the code says is we’ll tell you about the central 
clearing cycle: normally 3 days.  And it also says – and this is new – that if the bank 
adds extra days to this central clearing cycle before paying interest or allowing you to 
withdraw your money, then they must tell you about that upfront.  

DUGGLEBY:	So 3 days.  Is that the rule then, Sandra?

QUINN:	It is very much.  And it’s always useful in these cases to look 
at a concrete example.  So if I were to give Jenny a cheque today – Monday – and she 
pays it into her bank account now, then at the same time as that’s being processed 
electronically, the electronic details in that cheque, it’s also moving physically – the 
paper’s moving from her branch back to my bank, so that it can be paid out.  That 
happens over a 48-hour period, so by Wednesday morning the money’s in her account 
and my account has been debited.  And it’s quite important to remember that the 
credit and debit of the cheque happen simultaneously.  What’s then different is that 
her bank makes the decision on when they’d like to give her access to the funds that 
she’s paid in.

DUGGLEBY:	That’s what’s called the ‘cleared cheque’, isn’t it, the good 
money?

QUINN:	They’ll have the good money on the Wednesday and then they 
make a business decision, a service decision really about when they give her access to 
funds and when they pay her interest on those funds.

DUGGLEBY:	Well it sounds straightforward, Jenny.  What do you think?
JENNY:	Is the bank benefiting from that money then in that 
intervening period?

QUINN:	On the Wednesday, Jenny, your bank has money, and if 
they’re not giving you those funds they’re having the benefit of that, yes.

DUGGLEBY:	There’s also a couple of points which I think occur to me and 
that is if you pay in after or you do a cheque after, what is it, 4 o’clock or 3.30 - of 
course it’s not that day’s business.  And when you talk about ‘days’, it means the days 
when the banks are open, which is Monday to Friday.  It doesn’t include weekends, 
Louise.

HANSON:	Yeah and I think that that’s also why people are quite 
confused about the system – exactly how long it’s going to take, whether the banks 
are really open and clear about exactly when you will be able to access the funds.  
And if you do pay it in (as you say) at 4 o’clock or on a Friday, then obviously that 
extends the time.

DUGGLEBY:	Or ahead of a bank holiday.

HANSON:	It is difficult for people.  I know it really is difficult and I 
suppose the only thing we can say is just to you know be more clear upfront.

JENNY:	I think that would benefit the banks.  They would have a lot 
better customer relations if there was a bit more transparency about it, for sure.

DUGGLEBY:	Well there we are.  There is mention in the code and in the end 
it’s up to the banks, I suppose, to decide whether their customers should be better 
informed or a plaque in the bank perhaps.  I mean I know they do have these things 
saying ‘you must accept that these cheques will take this time’, but of course what 
does it mean and are the banks trying hard enough?  We’ll move on to Diana in 
Weston Super Mare.  Diana …

DIANA:	Hello.  I’m visually impaired and I never use a cash machine, I 
can’t cope with the chip and PIN, and in fact I don’t even know the PIN number for 
my card.  After a very embarrassing experience in the local supermarket where they 
insisted I used the chip and PIN, I went to my bank to find out what alternatives there 
were.  They couldn’t help me at all, but eventually they did find out and got me a card 
with I think it was a restricted PIN number.  I’ve used it three times – once with no 
problems.  The second time, it came up that the PIN number was locked and the 
supervisor was called, the manager was called, many apologies to all the queue 
building up behind me and I felt really embarrassed.  And the third time, it came up 
that I tried to put the PIN number in too many times and, again, supervisor, manager.  
And I was made to feel like a criminal.  So I haven’t used it since and I don’t want to 
use it again.

DUGGLEBY:	Can I just interrupt you there because I think there’s a policy 
on this matter of having people with visual impairment or any other form of 
impairment, which would prevent them from using the cards.

QUINN:	Absolutely.  I’m really disappointed to hear of Diana’s 
experience.  I’m very sorry that you had to go through this.

DUGGLEBY:	Teething problems, I suspect.

QUINN:	There is a policy.  It’s very clear that if you’re not able to use 
chip and PIN, and when we introduced it we always knew there’d be some customers 
who wouldn’t be able to use a chip and PIN pad - generally people who are visually 
impaired or would not been able to use cash machines – then your bank will offer you 
an alternative.  That can either be a card which has a chip on it still, but which 
requires you to continue to use a signature.  That means at no stage in the process will 
you ever be asked to input a PIN 

DUGGLEBY:	Will the retailers understand that by looking at the card?

QUINN:	Absolutely.  Not by looking at the card.  But as soon as they 
put the card in the terminal, the chip on their card meets the chip of the terminal and it 
explains that only a signature is required.

DUGGLEBY:	Right, okay.  So that seems to me to be what you should have, 
Diana, and if you haven’t got it then you should go back and say can I have one of 
these cards which prompts a signature and not a PIN.

DIANA:	Well that is what I’ve got, but it doesn’t come up on the 
machines as that.  It comes up as the wrong number being put in or the number being 
locked.  There’s only one place I know that it does come up as ‘customer will sign’.

DUGGLEBY:	Pass on that one.  I don’t know whether we could answer that 
specifically.  I mean I don’t know whether there’s any reason why your particular 
retailer would not have a machine that was able to process it.

QUINN:	I mean unfortunately I don’t know the reason why that would 
happen, but it sounds to me it’s very much a fault with the card as opposed to the 
terminal.  The card should be configured so that it’ll only prompt signature, never 
PIN.

DUGGLEBY:	I think possibly this is a case where you’ll have to go back to 
the bank and say look this isn’t working for some reason or another.  But there’s 
another principle that people have raised and that is what if they just don’t want a PIN 
number.  Can they actually have one of these sorts of cards which says you don’t have 
to put a PIN in?  Do you know about that, Louise?

HANSON:	Well I think the situation that Sandra explained is that if there 
are particular reasons – for example you have a visual impairment or you’ve not been 
able to use ATM’s before – that you can request one of these cards.  And clearly you 
know Diana’s had a really terrible experience and I think it’s really important that if 
other people who have these alternative cards do go back to their banks as soon as 
possible and ask them to sort it out.

DUGGLEBY:	But you can’t have it by choice – saying I don’t want this 
system?  You’ve got to have it.  We’ve had an e-mail, which says they actually don’t 
dislike the system but they find it a bit chaotic at the moment.  Some shops don’t have 
it.  ‘Is there any date’, they say, ‘by which this whole system has got to be brought 
in?’  Seymour, do you know if there’s any sort of final deadline?

FORTESCUE:	I think that’s probably a question for Sandra, but I would say 
that it is a change and one which I think will work very well.  It’s been working in 
France for a long time and it’s cut down their fraud significantly.  And one point 
worth making is that the banking code says that you can choose your own PIN, and 
that’s been a very expensive thing for a lot of banks to put in.  And it doesn’t exist in 
France - so in France, you get stuck with the number which the bank gives you.  
There’s no opportunity to change it.  So I think the banking code has made it a lot 
easier for people to use the chip and PIN system in this country.

DUGGLEBY:	But this question of a deadline, Sandra – is there one?

QUINN:	There’s no final deadline.  There’s no legal requirement to 
introduce chip and PIN.  It’s a joint bank and retail development.  But what we’re 
trying to ensure is that … Change is difficult, lots of us react in different ways, and 
this is a big behavioural change.  People have been used to signing when they buy 
something in a shop for over 35 years now and what we’re asking people to do is put 
in a PIN.  It’s a big change.  People will get used to it, and what we found in the 
customer research before we introduced it is that people are looking forward to the 
experience.

DUGGLEBY:	Linda’s e-mailed us from Okehampton saying, ‘I’d dearly love 
to use chip and PIN.  I think it’s a jolly good idea, but none of the places I can do will 
process my card, so what’s the point?’  But, as you say, it’ll gradually come even if in 
that particular area of North Devon they’re perhaps a little bit behind the times.  
Right, we’ve got Valerie now in Hayward’s Heath.


VALERIE:	Good afternoon.  I’m phoning up to say that my nephew last 
week had his card cloned and lost £900 of his hard earned money.  The ironic part is 
that I told him to put his money in the bank because he had it in his bedroom.  Has he 
got any redress with his bank and also will the chip and PIN things be more anti-
fraud?

DUGGLEBY:	Is this a chip and PIN card, as a matter of interest, or one of 
the older ones?  Is it a chip and PIN card?

VALERIE:	That I can’t tell you.  I think it’s probably one of the older 
ones.

DUGGLEBY:	Alright, okay.  So do you think it’s one where the card has 
definitely been cloned?  Do you think that’s what’s happened?

VALERIE:	Oh definitely.

DUGGLEBY:	Alright.  Seymour, is there a policy on cloning cards and what 
banks do?

FORTESCUE:	Well I mean I think your nephew should be alright because 
it’s clearly not his fault that the card has been cloned and the banking code says if 
someone else uses your card details without your permission and your card has not 
been lost or stolen, you’ll not have to pay anything.  So I think it’s very clear what his 
position is.

HANSON:	Yes, I mean it’s happened to me.  I was lucky, I only lost 
about £100, but I know that my bank was very sympathetic.  They dealt with it.  They 
actually credited my account immediately and then investigated afterwards.  I’m sure 
many different banks deal with it in different ways, but I’m sure that he should 
hopefully get his money back.

DUGGLEBY:	But there are stories that people are put through a lot of hassle.  
I mean this young man, how old is he Valerie?
VALERIE:	About 26.

DUGGLEBY:	Oh well at least he’s not 17.  

VALERIE:	No, but not very streetwise.  You know he’s a nice boy.

DUGGLEBY:	I’m just a bit worried that the banks sort of don’t believe him.  
They believe he’s given it to a friend, that sort of thing.  The sort of onus of proof,  
you know, who’s going to say “well you know did you really keep it or did you in fact 
make it available?”

QUIINN:	I think one of the problems with card fraud, the growing 
problem of card fraud over the last few years is in fact actually the reverse has 
happened with banks.  Actually what we tend to find is that they trust their customers 
completely in this area now where perhaps they didn’t do 10, 15 years ago, and they 
actually say “yes, no we understand how this type of fraud happens and, no, you 
shouldn’t lose out financially”. 

DUGGLEBY:	Okay.  Keith in Watford, you’re next.  Sorry to keep you 
waiting.

KEITH:	Thank you.  My question’s about who has overall 
responsibility for the proper control of the use of the direct debit set up system?  My 
son bought a phone from Carphone Warehouse about a year ago, produced his driving 
licence and a debit card from his bank as I.D., and a direct debit was set up at that 
time.  But instead of using his bank details, the direct line input set up of the direct 
debit used my account - so for 9 months, without any kind of authorisation from me, 
this particular company were taking direct debit payments for my son’s phone every 
single month from my joint account with my wife.  And as far as I can gather, there is 
no control over the customer having any opportunity under certain circumstances, 
with some service providers, seeing the data that has been put in on-line by the 
salesperson.

DUGGLEBY:	The point of this is you were noticing direct debits coming out 
of your account which you didn’t know anything about.

KEITH:	I didn’t notice them for about 8 or 9 months.  My question 
about control is this.  It seems to me that in this circumstance, although …

DUGGLEBY:	Yes, you’ve told us exactly what the situation is, but if you 
didn’t check your bank account for 8 or 9 months to see what was going in or out of 
it, I think you have a little bit of responsibility for that.  But, nonetheless, the point is 
taken; the system didn’t work.

QUINN:	Two clear things here.  If you have a direct debit being made 
out of your account, which you didn’t authorise - exactly in Keith’s case, then your 
bank will refund those funds immediately without any problems whatsoever.  And on 
the other side, your bank will then investigate how that happened and that also can 
involve going back to the company that’s been authorised to take out those direct 
debits and ask them to provide proof on what basis they did that and that will show 
where they got that clear information.

DUGGLEBY:	But they don’t require written authorisation necessarily, do 
they?

QUINN:	No, they don’t require written authorisation, but they must 
provide written records to the bank on request; and if they don’t, the company then 
has to pay back the funds.

DUGGLEBY:	Sure.  I mean there’s two sides to this in a sense because the 
person in this case I think was your son, Keith, wasn’t it, so I mean he clearly didn’t 
see any money going out of his account?

KEITH:	Well you see he happened to have an account with another 
company at the same time.  He thought he’d cancelled it.  He was receiving bills from 
them and deductions, almost exactly the same amount of money, by Carphone 
Warehouse at the same time and he assumed that these were payments for the new 
phone because he was receiving bills every month from Carphone Warehouse telling 
him that the direct debit was being taken from his account.

DUGGLEBY:	Indeed.  Well obviously, as I say, you’ve got redress in this 
case, although albeit it took rather a long time to pick up the mistake in the first place.  
Anything you can comment on, Louise – methods of stopping this?  I mean even with 
a signature, I can’t think necessarily it would stop it.

HANSON:	And I think there’s something about being vigilant on your 
own statements.  You know it is really important that everybody does check you 
know their statements each month because things like this can happen.  And 
obviously whilst it’s irritating and worrying, you know you can get the money back, 
but it’s best to kind of keep a close eye on your monthly statements and stop it before 
it gets too far down the line.

DUGGLEBY:	And I remember in my case, I had a lot of money taken out on 
national insurance contributions because somebody keyed in the wrong national 
insurance number.  You know I picked it up eventually, but it didn’t happen 
immediately and it took quite a long time to unscramble.  However, that’s another 
matter.  Now we’ll move onto Tony in Knutsford.  Tony …

TONY:	Oh yes, good afternoon.  My question regards actually 
changing from one bank to another.  We’re told that we should be able to change if 
we’re dissatisfied, but when you try and do this you come up against the same wall 
you always come up against – we don’t know you, you’ve got to prove who you are – 
and I would have thought that with all the modern technology and the way banks talk 
to one another now, it would be a simple matter to transfer the details from one bank 
to the other.  

DUGGLEBY:	Yes, this question of identification, Seymour.  The banks have 
rather tightened up on this, haven’t they?  I mean they don’t really take anything for 
granted and in fact sometimes even existing customers to some financial organisations 
have to represent their credentials.

FORTESCUE:	Yes.  I mean I think there are two points here.  One is the 
question of identification and the law is very strict.  You know the bank employees 
can face criminal proceedings if they don’t do the job properly.

DUGGLEBY:	Is that under money laundering legislation?

FORTESCUE:	Yes, I mean and I think there’s perhaps a bit of paranoia about 
it.  But one of the things which may change is the requirement to produce a utility bill.  
The Financial Services Authority has recently produced a report saying that they don’t 
think that that adds very much value in terms of proving somebody’s identity or 
where they live, so that may go.  Most banks will, if asked, be reasonably flexible 
about forms of identification.  The other point is the question of how quickly banks 
will transfer the information and the code says that the bank that’s losing the account 
has to pass on information about direct debits and standing orders within three 
working days of receiving the request, and I think most banks do comply with that 
very fully.

TONY:	Oh yes, I mean there’s no question that if you do succeed in 
transferring, they do do it very quickly.  It’s just that I cannot get my head round why, 
because all the information is held anyway, that if one bank’s done all the checks and 
verified you are who you say you are, why that information cannot be transferred to 
another bank.  Alright go in and sign the necessary forms for the signatures, but every 
other bit of information is exactly the same.  And they can see the account.  If you’ve 
had the account, as I have, for 30 years and you want to change, you know there’s no 
question …

DUGGLEBY:	Tony … I’ll give you a bit of advice, Tony: give up the 
unequal struggle.  It’s all very well keeping on saying “I demand that you know who I 
am”, but in the end I used to think to myself what on earth am I doing having to go 
down to the bank.  And they actually say if you want to do certain transactions you’ve 
got to produce evidence of your identity, so I take it down.  Now nine times out of ten 
I don’t get asked to see it, but the one day I go down without it, I know I shall find a 
new cashier there who’ll say “we don’t know who you are”.  So, as I say, I just carry 
it with me.  What do you do, Louise?
HANSON:	Yeah, I mean I think the important point here is that once you 
have kind of dealt with the identification issues, which may be slightly irritating but at 
the same time is important, that it is pretty easy to switch now.  And I think that’s a 
really positive message that Tony mentioned himself; that about 90% of people 
who’ve switched since the beginning of 2003 that we surveyed found it pretty 
straightforward.  And you really can benefit from switching, both in increasing the 
customer satisfaction levels of the company you have your account with, and also 
often you can get a much better interest rate.  So please think about switching.  It’s 
positive.

DUGGLEBY:	Katherine has e-mailed us saying her switch went through 
‘reasonably okay’, but she had a problem with direct debits, particularly to utility 
companies, who she says ‘seemed quite unable to deal with the change’.  

HANSON:	Yeah, I mean I think, as Seymour said, that the banks working 
together now have to move your accounts pretty quickly and we have heard that there 
are problems with utility companies, maybe local authorities and others and there can 
be some problems there.  I think the main thing here is keep vigilant and keep an eye 
on how it’s progressing, and do kind of encourage those utility companies and others 
to speed up their service.

DUGGLEBY:	But is it correct to say you can’t lay the fault of that issue at 
the door of the banks?  It’s the utility companies, is it, who aren’t responding to the 
request?  Or what is it?

HANSON:	Yeah, I mean obviously there are certain responsibilities that 
the banks have to move your details over to the new bank, but there are some 
companies (like utility companies) that also have responsibility to help.

DUGGLEBY:	Yeah, well I’m not surprised with the number of customers of 
course switching their accounts.  Right, Chris, your call now from Longeaton.  


CHRIS:	Hello there.  Yeah, I have a concern about chip and PIN that I 
suspect that many shoppers haven’t even considered.  We’re advised to prevent 
people standing around us, from leaning over our shoulders and seeing our PIN for 
obvious reasons, but in most retailers, if you look up, you’ll see security cameras in 
the ceiling, and through these not only could people see your PIN going in, but worse 
I suspect.  There’s a time matched recording of that being made as well, which 
somebody could match with the till receipts and, bingo, they’ve got your account 
number and the PIN number.

DUGGLEBY:	Chris, I’ve got a whole sheaf of e-mails, all of which are along 
the same line.  It’s about privacy.  It’s people looking over your shoulder; it’s security 
cameras.  In one case, I’ve got someone who was actually asked for their PIN by the 
cashier, who said “Oh dear, I’ll put it in for you; no need to worry”.  Obviously 
privacy’s a big issue, so what can you comment about that, Sandra?

QUINN:	It is the one issue that people spontaneously say to us that they 
have a concern about in chip and PIN.  And I think that goes back to what we were 
talking about earlier, that this is a massive change and people need time to get used to 
it.  I can reassure Chris that in fact he’s not the first person to have thought about the 
issue on security cameras.  We issue guidelines to retailers to say that all security 
cameras should be directed away from anybody putting in their PIN.  And what you 
need to know is that somebody else knowing your PIN is completely useless without 
them having your card at all.  They need your actual card.  Only that card and that 
PIN match each other.

DUGGLEBY:	Somebody said, of course, if you happened to leave your card 
behind and somebody’s seen it, then of course they could pick it up and use it, but 
then I suppose you could leave your card behind in any circumstances.  What’s your 
experience, Seymour?

FORTESCUE:	Well I don’t think we should be too worried about this.  I 
mean we’ve all been keying numbers into cash dispensers for a number of years and I 
think doing it in a retailer’s shouldn’t involve any greater risks.
DUGGLEBY:	We’ve got a rather interesting e-mail, which asks for a 
comment from the panel.  It says, ‘I have several cards, and I think probably we all 
do.  Do you think we should have one single number for the card, all our cards, or 
multiple numbers?’  So first of all, Seymour, how many cards have you got?

FORTESCUE:	I’ve got three with PINs.

DUGGLEBY:	And have you got separate PINs or the same one?

FORTESCUE:	I’ve got the same one, but I’m not going to tell you what it is.

DUGGLEBY:	No, no …  Alright Sandra, what do you do?

QUINN:	I have four separate chip and PIN cards and I have kept my 
numbers individual.

DUGGLEBY:	So you remember four numbers?

QUINN:	I do remember four numbers, but I do wonder whether I’m 
now at the extreme of my memory.  My husband, alternatively, has three chip and 
PIN cards and he has changed the number to the same PIN on each of them.  And the 
general advice here is that if you find that one number is a number that you don’t need 
to write down, that’s going to be the safest thing for you to do.  Change it all to one.

DUGGLEBY:	I’ve got three and I use three different numbers.  Again that’s 
just about the limit for me.  What about you, Louise?

HANSON:	I’ve got four, and I’m afraid I do use one number.    

DUGGLEBY:	So we’re divided then.

HANSON:	And I know that whilst you are meant to have several 
numbers, I think realistically for an awful lot of people, you know with the change in 
telephone numbers and so many digits and you’ve got lots of cards with chip and PIN 
… I think the main thing is don’t write it down.  As Sandra says, if you can only 
remember one, then maybe that’s what you should do.

DUGGLEBY:	But it wouldn’t be held against you if you only had one 
number?  The one number people are not going to be sort of victimised on the 
grounds that they were making life easier for the fraudster?

QUINN:	No, absolutely not because that’s not the natural assumption.  
A lot of us actually have one different number for credit cards and one different 
number for debit cards.  That’s obviously another way to go.

DUGGLEBY:	Okay, good advice there.  And we’ll see what we can now do 
for Marion I think is our next one from London.

MARION:	Yes, I would like to know why in this age of electronic switch 
button, it is still necessary to transfer payments three to five days before the due date 
and if one is a day late one has to pay a whopping £25 for it?

DUGGLEBY:	Alright, Louise …?

HANSON:	Yeah, I think there’s probably a couple of things here: one, 
how long it takes to transfer something online if you’re talking about sort of electronic 
transfers; and, secondly, the charges that people get are made by credit card or other 
companies if you’re late or if you go overdrawn.  I mean you know you can see 
charges of something like £25 and you know we think they’re pretty high, they’re 
pretty extreme 

MARION:	This was last year in January around this time.  I always pay 
my bills every month and I was a day late then.  Now at that time they gave me the 
£25 back when I complained, but the same thing happened I think it was in November 
and they said well you’ll have to wait again for another £25 to be given to you in 
January.

HANSON:	I think the main thing is go back and query this.  You know 
they should be rewarding you for your loyalty as a customer.  Do query it.

QUINN:	Absolutely.  It’s very similar advice I always give to people.  
As long as you don’t habitually pay late, ask your bank.  They’re very good at 
rewarding customers with the service they deserve.

SEYMOUR:	I was going to say you’re not the only one, Marion, who’s 
concerned about this.  I know that the OFT are investigating it at the moment and, no 
doubt, they’ll be making recommendations in due course because they are looking at 
the level of penalty charges such as you mention.

DUGGLEBY:	Okay.  Caroline in Bristol, you’ve got the next call.

CAROLINE:	Hello.  I’ve had a weird thing happen and I’m just wondering 
who to go to next to try and sort it out.  I have a cash machine receipt where I took out 
£60 from one cash point, which wasn’t my own bank, but when I went to look at my 
bank statement (because I compare everything and do look at these things 
obsessively), I found that the bank statement showed £40 more than the actual cash I 
took out.  And I went to my bank …

DUGGLEBY:	Did you have a printed slip saying you’d withdrawn the £60?

CAROLINE:	Yeah, yeah.  Yes, I took that slip to my bank and sat down 
there with a clerk who filled in all the details for a claim and whatever, looked at the 
slip and agreed that there was something odd there.  But I got a letter back some 
weeks later saying that the HSBC, whose machine it was, had written back to them 
saying there was no problem, I took £100 out, and never explained why my slip said 
£60.  And I’m wondering who to go to next.

DUGGLEBY:	Alright, well this is probably getting a formal complaint in.  I 
mean you’ve got a certain amount of evidence.  I don’t quite see why HSBC just 
dismissed it, Seymour.  It seems a bit odd if the evidence was there to show that £60 
had been dispensed.
FORTESCUE:	I’m surprised as well.  But you’re quite right, Vincent, the 
thing to do is to make a formal complaint.  The bank have to deal with it within a 
certain space of time, and if you don’t get satisfaction then take it to the Financial 
Ombudsman Service and they will look into it. 

DUGGLEBY:	What usually happens is after you’ve done the complaint, the 
bank has a certain amount of time to reject it or accept it.  And then is it a deadlock 
letter?

FORTESCUE:	That’s right - if you can’t reach agreement with them, they 
will issue a deadlock letter, which then enables you to go to the Ombudsman.

HANSON:	And it really is worth going to the Ombudsman.  They’re 
independent, it doesn’t cost you anything, and they can help sort out this complaint 
with your bank.

DUGGLEBY:	Okay, Chris has just e-mailed us about an earlier answer 
saying about these new disabled cards.  Quite a lot of interest in these.  ‘Are they 
valid with ATMs?’  Can you use them with PIN numbers in an ATM although you’re 
using signature on a chip and PIN system?

QUINN:	Chris should be reassured that most banks are able to provide 
a chip and signature card, which has cash machine functionality.

DUGGLEBY:	And it has the number on that?

QUINN:	Absolutely.

DUGGLEBY:	Okay, that’s clarified that point.  Time I think for one more 
call.  It will be Dennis 

DENNIS:	A couple of months ago, I had a bit of a surprise.  I forgot to 
pay my Barclaycard with a cheque on time, so so I didn’t get a penalty payment, I 
dashed down to the bank on the morning that it was due, paid in cash and still got a 
penalty charge.

DUGGLEBY:	Okay, penalty charge even though he paid cash.  Any 
comments on that one?

QUINN:	I’d be interested to know, Dennis, did you pay that money into 
your own branch because obviously that changes things very much so?

DENNIS:	Yes.

DUGGLEBY:	So that should have gone through if it was cash.

HANSON:	I mean I’d go back and query that maybe with the bank.  I 
mean I always thought that the way to make sure you met the deadlines was pay in 
cash you know to the cashier, so I think it’s worth questioning.

DUGGLEBY:	Indeed.  And if there’s any charges arise, I think you just go 
back to the bank and say you’ve been a good customer, please waive the charges.

HANSON:	Yeah, absolutely.

DUGGLEBY:	Alright.  We’ve got to leave it there, I’m afraid.  We’ve run 
out of time.  But thanks to Seymour Fortescue, chief executive of the Banking Code 
Standards Board – that new standard comes in in a month’s time; Sandra Quinn from 
APACS and Louise Hanson from Which?  You can get more information on any of 
the points we’ve raised during the programme by ringing us on 0800 044 044 or 
logging onto the website: bbc.co.uk/moneybox.  Paul Lewis will be here with Money 
Box as usual on Saturday and he’ll also be in this chair for the next four weeks to take 
your calls on Money Box Live.  I’ll be back with you in March.