11 September was "larger than the atom bomb" 4/2/02
NORMAN MAILER:
I remember nothing like it. I think
it was even larger, this is a huge
remark to make, but larger than
the atom bomb. The atom bomb
fell at the end of the Second World
War. It had an enormous impact.
I was living in Massachusetts,
on the tip of Cape Cod, so I was
300 miles away from New York
when it happened. My children,
who live in New York, were
furious at me, because they felt
that my reaction was not huge
enough. Everybody in New York
was walking around stunned,
apparently. They still haven't
gotten over it. For profound
causes. It's not a simple matter.
KIRSTY WARK:
But do you think the fear, in
essence, that's gripped America
since is about the incomprehension
of it, that people simply don't
understand what happened?
NORMAN MAILER:
I think it was a matter of
emotional scale, if you will. In
America, people get mad at each
other, but despite all of the stories
about murder and killing and
violence in America, the fact is
most Americans are peaceful,
essentially. They just can't
conceive of anyone hating them
that much. "How can anyone hate
us? We're a sweet nation. We're
a good nation. We want good for
everyone." Most Americans are
pretty innocent. The worst thing
that can be said about my country
in one sentence is that, if you are
going to characterise Americans
in one sentence, you would say
that they don't like any question
that takes longer than ten seconds
to answer.
KIRSTY WARK:
UCLA have 50 new courses,
Machiavelli and the events of
September 11th, The Old
Testament and the events of
September 11th. Are people
genuinely scrabbling for answers
in any text they can find?
NORMAN MAILER:
I think the key element in it is
that Allah is a concept that's
absolutely foreign to Americans.
It's as if a great divide is coming
upon the world. On the one
hand, you have a culture that,
particularly in America, and to
a great degree Europe, is
following that culture, where
no matter what lip service one
pays to religion, no matter how
often one invokes the name of
Jesus Christ, the fact of the
matter is that the majority of
people are living their lives
with the idea that they're not
going to worry about death.
They're just going to do as much
as they can to hold off death as
long as possible. You see, it's
become a money culture, "I
live for my life," they say,
everyone says. And in effect,
they are very practical, so far as
life goes, and have absolutely
no concept that's at all enriching
about death. On the other hand,
you have Islam, which says this
world is a total bloody mess,
most of us are poor. Those who
are rich at the top are awful and
corrupt. We have this abominable
life, but we have heaven if we
live, and die, especially, for
Allah. What you've got is a huge
war shaping, in which what
you've got, let me speak like a
Jamaican for a moment, we've
got "Allah versus the Almighty
Dollah."
KIRSTY WARK:
What about the idea of patriotism
in America? Even David Lynch
has been flying an American flag,
saying it's an act of civic union.
Is it a more patriotic place?
NORMAN MAILER:
What are we unifying against?
That's what makes me nervous.
In the Second World War, all
right the country unified against
Hitler. That was not only a man
and a set of ideas. It was also
a country, a set of countries. It
was a huge, definable war. This
one is, on the one hand, we have
our enormous military forces,
very skilful indeed, who wipe
out the Taliban, to everyone's
huge surprise, it didn't take long,
and who are we fighting? On
the other hand, there's the sense
that this could go on, and take
on huge proportions, because
Islam is virtually half of the
world by now, in terms of
religious forces.
KIRSTY WARK:
Do you think that's why George
Bush has to talk about the war
against terrorism, and the "axis
of evil"?
NORMAN MAILER:
Evil, evil, evil, evil.
KIRSTY WARK:
What does it make you think
when you hear that?
NORMAN MAILER:
He can't make a speech
without using the word "evil"
13 or 15 or 22 times. But
where is the evil? They can't
even locate Osama Bin Laden?
They don't know if he is alive
or dead. Fighting evil is a way
of dulling people's minds. It's
as if in America, because we
have so few roots, an Israeli in
America, you can find the place
where they were born. They
even redid the hospital where
the person was born, because
we rebuild and rebuild, and
we make things uglier and
uglier every time we rebuild.
Given that, there are no roots,
compared to European
countries we have very few
roots. You need something
to believe, and patriotism
becomes it.
KIRSTY WARK:
Finally, do you think that
America has had a wake-up
call about how others in the
world view America?
NORMAN MAILER:
Probably not, so long as they
keep saying, "Evil, evil, evil".
That is opposed to a wake-up
call, that's an anodyne. It's to
soothe feelings here. If you are
going along and you are living
a halfway corrupt life, as certainly
America has been doing in terms
of world affairs and economics.
I don't have to bring in Enron to
make my point, then, if you are
half evil, nothing soothes you
more than to think that the
person you are opposed to is
totally evil. If the person you
are opposed to is half evil also,
as indeed I am sure they are,
then what you have is the old
human mix, which is full of
complication, and every
question can keep you up all
night. For that reason, the
attempt in America has been
to close the wound quickly,
and if it putrefies later, some
other doctor will take care of
that.
KIRSTY WARK:
Norman Mailer, thank you
very much.