Smoking debate lights up Commons

By Rachel Hooper
Parliamentary correspondent, Today in Parliament

So, the Commons has voted to ban smoking in enclosed public places in England.

MPs had a free vote, which meant they didn't have to follow the party line.

They had three options before them: a complete ban; a ban with an exemption for private members clubs; and the government's original plan, as set out in its Health Bill, for smoking to be allowed to continue in clubs, and pubs which didn't serve food.

In the event, the health secretary, Patricia Hewitt, voted for the blanket ban - even though during the debate, she had put forward the proposal that private clubs be exempted.

Balancing act

It was a stance ridiculed by the Conservatives.

At the start of the debate, Ms Hewitt insisted that, whatever happened, the bill would ban smoking in "virtually every enclosed public place and workplace" in England.

Over time, we estimate that an additional 600,000 people will give up smoking as a result of this law Patricia Hewitt

"We will ensure that from the summer of next year -18 months earlier than we originally proposed - smoke-free workplaces and public places will become the norm," she said.

"Over time, we estimate that an additional 600,000 people will give up smoking as a result of this law and that millions more will be protected from second-hand smoke."

But, she said, there were conflicting views about exactly how far legislation to ban smoking should extend - where the balance should be struck, between, on the one hand, protecting people from harm, and on the other, protecting peoples' freedom of choice.

Change of heart?

The health secretary explained that she was putting forward a new proposal, or clause, to include in the smoking ban all other licensed premises, including those which did not serve food.

The shadow health secretary, Andrew Lansley, intervened to remind Ms Hewitt that her view had changed since she spoke in the big debate on the bill at the end of November.

Is this not a simple health and safety issue? Passive smoking kills. Full stop. It does not matter whether it takes place in private members' clubs or in public bars. Is that not the case Jim Devine Labour MP

He recalled the Cabinet row over how far the ban should extend.

"Did she believe at the time that it was right to exempt pubs that did not serve food? Who in the government believed that the policy that she presented to the House then was the right approach? " he said.

Ms Hewitt replied: "I said on second reading that I was delighted to be bringing forward a bill that is an enormous step forward for public health."

But, back to the plan Ms Hewitt was now setting out.

Club classic

There would be exemptions to the ban - smoking would be allowed to continue in what she described as genuine private membership clubs.

That angered a Labour MP, Jim Devine: "Is this not a simple health and safety issue? Passive smoking kills. Full stop. It does not matter whether it takes place in private members' clubs or in public bars. Is that not the case?"

I intend to vote for private clubs to have the freedom proposed - does the right hon. Lady intend to do the same? Sir Patrick Cormack Tory MP

Ms Hewitt replied: "My hon. Friend is right. It is also the case that about 95 per cent of the deaths that result from passive smoking occur as a result of passive smoking in people's homes, not in public places or in membership clubs."

A Conservative, Sir Patrick Cormack, thought that private members' clubs should be free to allow smoking - and he wanted to know if Ms Hewitt would actually support the exemption she was putting forward.

"I intend to vote for private clubs to have the freedom proposed - does the right hon. Lady intend to do the same?" he said.

Ms Hewitt insisted: "As I have already said, I think that the arguments are extremely finely balanced. In the spirit of the free vote that we on the government benches will have, I intend to listen to the debate very carefully."

'Stop the banners'

Conservative MPs jeered, and from the Tory frontbench, Mr Lansley, predicted that Ms Hewitt would suffer the utter humiliation of voting against her own legislation.

He said he would be voting to exempt private clubs.

By the time I got to primary school, I could, as ashtray monitor, go to the staff room and pick up a few dog-ends Stephen Pound Labour MP

"I do not believe that we could or should require people not to smoke in their homes when staff or employees are present," he said.

"I therefore do not support the argument that private homes or private members' clubs should be smoke-free on the ground of the presence of employees," he added.

Labour MP Stephen Pound, a smoker, added some levity to the debate by arguing that MPs should not be out to "ban" everything.

He prompted laughter with his anecdote: "Every morning I used to rise and have a reflective cigarette; then I would have breakfast and a cigarette; then I would say my prayers, but remember what my good Jesuit confessor said: 'You should never ever smoke while you are praying, but you can pray while you are smoking'.

"I would then get on a bus and leap like a lithe gazelle to the upper deck, where I would have a couple of Players Weights before jumping off. By the time I got to primary school, I could, as ashtray monitor, go to the staff room and pick up a few dog-ends."

Second-hand smoke

More seriously, the Liberal Democrat spokesman, Steve Webb, said at the heart of the issue was the health and safety of people who worked in pubs and clubs.

The club is not home and people are inflicting smoke not on themselves or their loved ones, but on other people Steve Webb Lib Dem MP

"If we consider the matter, as I have done throughout, in terms of the health and safety of people who work in those environments, the fact that I am breathing in the second-hand smoke of someone who happens to have a membership card is irrelevant," he said.

"The fact that they have agreed with other club members that they have the right to smoke, and I am expected to breathe it in, is irrelevant.

"The club is not home and people are inflicting smoke not on themselves or their loved ones, but on other people," he added.

Sir Patrick interrupted the Lib Dem to state: "The hon. Gentleman is not obliged either to join a club or to go to one as a guest. If he knows that there is smoking in the club and he does not want to go there, he has no need to do so."

Mr Webb said he was talking about the workers, not the members or their guests and insisted he wanted an outright ban.

'Unacceptable risks'

As did the Labour chairman of the Commons Health Committee, Kevin Barron. "Licensed clubs employ bar staff, who are routinely exposed to other people's smoke," he said.

"The fact that the clubs in which they work are owned by members does not afford them any protection from lung cancer or heart disease.

"The notion that club members should be able to vote to continue to expose their workers to such risks is unacceptable."

And Labour's Barry Sheerman had another argument: "Hon. Members have called the bill a ban on smoking. It is not a ban on smoking, but a line in the sand that says that we will from now start a new culture in our country in which people realise that smoking kills them, or seriously affects their health."

The debate culminated in a series of potentially confusing votes.

First, MPs voted on the proposal to ban smoking on all licensed premises, but with private members' clubs exempted.

Over to the Lords

This they supported by 453 to125, a majority of 328.

But, immediately afterwards, they went on to vote on whether to remove that exemption on private clubs.

The exemption was scrapped - by a large majority.

Tony Blair was among those who voted for a total ban, along with the Chancellor Gordon Brown, and a number of other cabinet ministers, including Patricia Hewitt.

Those who opposed it - wanting private clubs to be exempted - included the Culture Secretary Tessa Jowell, the Education Secretary Ruth Kelly, and the former health secretary and now Defence Secretary John Reid.

The bill now goes to the House of Lords - where the arguments will start all over again.

You can listen to Today in Parliament at 2330GMT on BBC Radio 4. Yesterday in Parliament can be heard at 0645GMT on Radio 4.