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Friday, April 9, 1999 Published at 16:27 GMT 17:27 UK


UK Politics

Nationalists 'don't want independence'



In the second of BBC News Online's interviews with party leaders in the run-up to the Welsh elections, Dafydd Wigley argues the case for Plaid Cymru.

For Plaid Cymru the creation of the National Assembly for Wales is a first step on a long road of constitutional change.

Opinions differ, though, on what is the final destination that the nationalists, who are chasing Labour in the polls, have in mind.


Dafydd Wigley: "The constitutional way forward for Wales is a gradualist one"
Opponents warn that Plaid Cymru cannot be trusted - even to run the Assembly which cannot set taxes and can only vary legislation covering a limited range of issues such as health and education.

They say Plaid has a not-so-hidden agenda.

Plaid is a separatist party which will only be happy when Wales has gained total independence from the rest of the UK, they warn.

The i word

Plaid Cymru leader Dafydd Wigley says that it is all wrong.

True his party wants Wales to have a greater say in the running of its affairs.

But he adds: "We haven't used the term full independence or independence at all in any stage in our history.

"We have used the term self-government and self-government within the European context as we believe that is the relevant term.


[ image:  ]
"We don't believe that any country is independent in the 21st century in the way that it was interpreted in the 19th century. There is interdependence between countries and particularly between the countries in Europe.

Mr Wigley says that even if his wildest dreams were achieved there would still be need for some co-ordination of policy across the UK if only simply for reasons of geographical proximity.

He dismisses critics who reject his explanations as semantic games-playing and accuse him of toning down his rhetoric to avoid scaring away moderate voters.

"The term separatist isn't very meaningful in this day and age," he says.

"We are part of a united Europe. The separatists we have within these islands are the little Englanders who want to separate England away from the continent we are part of."

'A step at a time'

Any changes to the constitutional status of Wales would have to be approved by more referendums, Mr Wigley stresses.

And even if he were to win control of the Assembly, these changes are unlikely to be an issue in its first four-year term, he adds.


[ image:  ]
"The constitutional way forward for Wales is a gradualist one - a step at a time. The first step is to make the Assembly work.

"I think the challenge is to get people throughout Wales to recognise the Assembly as being helpful and relevant and that means delivering services."

Plaid Cymru is a left-of-centre party whose programme includes policies such as the return of free eye and dental tests.

Mr Wigley adds: "The next step is to get the law-making powers that Scotland has over the devolved subjects such as education and the strengthening of our voice in Europe."

"The question of self-government in Europe may come at a later stage. It is something we would like to see, but it will only come if the people of Wales have a will for that to happen. And for that will to exist we have got to show we can make a success of the very limited autonomy we are getting."

Building Welsh self-confidence

Boosting the faith of the Welsh people in themselves is also crucial, he believes.

"We have to build up self-confidence," he says.


Dafydd Wigley: Wales has a different tradition to Scotland
"If there is one thing that's been lacking in Wales it's self-confidence. We want people in Wales to accept more responsibility.

"We are sick to death of complaining forever and a day that London hasn't done this or that London hasn't done the other.

"We want the ability to do things for ourselves. Yes, possibly make our own mistakes but at least they will be our own mistakes in the light of circumstances, needs and aspirations in Wales."

Wales and Europe

That is not to say he believes Wales should be inward looking. The European dimension is central to the Assembly's success Mr Wigley says.

"We shall have the right to have a person from the Assembly as a member of the UK team at the EU Council of Ministers when matters arise that are covered by the Assembly, for example agriculture.


[ image:  ]
"We won't have our own vote, but we but we will have the right to speak and that is a step forward as the Council of Ministers is behind closed doors and the decisions taken there can have a very far-reaching effect on Wales."

Among the benefits to be gained are more EU grants.

This money, Mr Wigley says, could rejuvenate economically blighted areas such as the former coal field valleys.

"If we can achieve a good programme and get it implemented then people will start seeing progress being made and the Assembly will find a place in people's hearts and minds," he says.

"But if we find the Assembly turning into a bickering arena with the sort of politics we see in the valley local authorities in Wales, particularly the way Labour has run those authorities then that would be an absolute disaster and I think the Assembly would very quickly lose credibility with people in Wales."

Coalition questions

However, Plaid's vision will not be realised if it does not win enough votes on 6 May.


Dafydd Wigley: What could happen if no party has an overall majority in the Assembly
"Our target, as any party going into an election like this, is to get an overall majority," Mr Wigley says.

"But I have recognised that the likely outcome will be that Labour will be the largest party, though I don't believe it will have an overall majority."

"There's no doubt that Plaid Cymru is the party that will be second if we haven't overtaken them," he says.

Mr Wigley believes that if Labour narrowly fails to gain an overall majority it is most likely to jump into bed with the Lib Dems.

If Labour's vote is even worse then the haggling could begin, he believes.

"In those circumstances we would be looking to agree a programme of government that we could support without necessarily being part of a governing coalition, but on the basis of keeping a coalition in power if it is implementing that programme," he says.



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09 Apr 99 | The Welsh Assembly
CV: Dafydd Wigley

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