Key extracts: Sixsmith interview

At odds: Martin Sixsmith and Stephen Byers

Key extracts from Martin Sixsmith's interview with BBC Radio 4's Today programme about his controversial departure from the Transport Department.

Q: Who decided that you should be removed?

A: Well I don't know for a fact and the odd thing is I wasn't actually there - I was at a medical appointment some five miles away. When I got out of that medical appointment, I heard Stephen Byers on the radio saying that he had accepted my resignation. Since I hadn't resigned, I thought that was rather odd.

Q: But Sir Richard Mottram says you were willing to resign, that Mr Byers was consulted and the decision, as you've just said, was made while you were out of the building. Does that suggest to you that it was Mr Byers' decision or not?

A: Well all the indications are that it was Stephen Byers who, having got to the end of his tether, I suspect, with Jo Moore, decided he would accept Jo's resignation but I was told he would only accept Jo's resignation if I was made to resign as well.

Q: You were clear that it was Mr Byers' decision, faced with the inevitability of Jo Moore's departure, that you had to go and that was his price and he demanded it - effectively from his permanent secretary and from you?

A: Yes, I was told that Jo would go but the quid pro quo for that was that I had to go as well.

Q: From what you've said about Sir Richard Mottram and his standing as a civil servant and someone with whom you've worked as an individual whose integrity you don't question - that conversation with him left you in absolutely no doubt that it was Mr Byers' wish that you go rather than Sir Richard's?

A: Yes. Richard told me he'd spoken to Stephen Byers about this and that the decision was that it had to be a symmetrical resignation - I had to go as the same time as Jo.

Q: So you were left with no option?

A: No, I was left with two options. Oddly, Sir Richard said 'look we've got two ways of getting round this latest Jo Moore crisis. We can do what we've done in all the Jo Moore crises in the past - we can muddle through, no resignations. I, Sir Richard Mottram, would probably have to weed out a few people in the press office. Or, Martin, we could go for the rather more dramatic option which is the double resignation scenario and if we do that we've have to discuss on what terms you would be going'. Because he said, quite clearly - I know you have done nothing wrong, Martin.

Q: If you were a civil service boss saying that you've done nothing wrong but I'm afraid we've got the double resignation scenario, there is only one place that the request for that could have come from - which is?

A: I suspect it came from the very top.

Q: It is argued that you were making mischief in Fleet Street. That over this whole confused question as to whether Jo Moore was warned that you can't make an announcement on the day of Princess Margaret's funeral - you were at it with your friends in the press. How do you respond to that?

A: Well that's not right. What I did was to send an e-mail to say that we shouldn't make any announcements on the day of Princess Margaret's funeral.

Q: Did you have evidence that Jo Moore wanted that to happen or were you just trying to head off a possibility at the pass?

A: No, on the Monday we'd discussed what day to do it and Jo suggested the Friday. I said I didn't think it was a good idea to do it on the Friday and I sent an e-mail to Jo.

Q: Did you brief the press after that about the background to that e-mail? Because the papers are claiming that you did.

A: Yes, I had a phone call from the Mirror and the Express saying they'd been tipped off that there was an e-mail and that they'd had some quotes from it. The quotes were wrong so they'd clearly hadn't seen the e-mail.

Q: The tip-off didn't come from you?

A: The tip-off didn't come from me.

Q: What about your own position? You believe that you haven't resigned. You're still, as far as you're concerned, a member of the civil service.

A: I haven't resigned, I haven't been sacked and they said they won't sack me because I've not done anything wrong. I suppose actually they could sack me...they could sack me now because I'm talking to you without Stephen Byers' permission, so I guess probably they could sack me. But that would be quite hard for them because then they would have to say, well then he didn't resign in the first place. It would put them in a rather tricky situation. I'm not going to go to the office, that's silly.

Q: Are you being smeared?

A: Before I decided to talk to the media - and I only did that really as a last resort - we'd had a very long series of negotiations. We were looking for a face-saving compromise to try and save everybody's honour in this, including Stephen Byers', to try to secure my job and my future. When that fell through I decided I had to go public. But the number of people then who said 'beware because if you go public with this, there will be a smear campaign against you'. I didn't believe them when they said that, I'm now less adamant in not believing them.

Q: On what evidence?

A: Well I've had some very odd telephone calls. I've had national journalists - well respected journalists from well respected newspapers - ringing up and saying that sources close to No 10 are saying 'ring Martin and try and find out something about his property portfolio'.

Q: His property portfolio?

A: Absolutely bizarre. I own a flat in Paris, what's the secret about that. But then to sort of suggest that there's something sort of murky about that and to get journalists digging around on that strikes me as a rather odd thing to do.

Q: You say sources close to No 10 are you suggesting that the people who rang you up are telling you that No 10 are pointing them towards your property?

A: They're saying that people close to No 10 are suggesting that it would be a good idea just to look at Martin's property portfolio.