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Brian Rowan
BBC NI security editor
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In Dublin a fortnight ago, the Irish Prime Minister, Bertie Ahern, sat in the same room as members of the loyalist paramilitary leadership.
Two of those who attended the private talks in the Irish capital are "brigadiers" in the UDA - members of its Inner Council.
Archbishop Eames met the Loyalist Commission
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Just days earlier their organisation had put its name to murder - to the killing of Alan McCullough - an associate of Johnny Adair and once his military commander.
In Dublin, there were others in the room - including the Church of Ireland Primate, Archbishop Robin Eames. Back in 1994 he was one of those who coaxed and urged the loyalists towards their ceasefire.
Since then, loyalism - or at least a part of it - has lost its way in the peace process.
And, now, there is an attempt to re-focus, to regain lost ground and to help put loyalism back on the political stage.
All strands of this paramilitary world have been pulled together into a Loyalist Commission - a commission which in its short history has had talks with the British and Irish Governments, church leaders, David Trimble, the Conservative Party's Northern Ireland spokesman Quentin Davies and the Chief Constable, Hugh Orde.
Community and church representatives also sit on the commission, with the job of asking the difficulty questions of the paramilitaries.
Senior UDA figures sit on the commission
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Lord Eames is not part of the commission, but he has met it, and this week, it was he who asked some of those difficult questions.
As far as he is concerned, the commission - or more specifically the paramilitary groups represented on it - can only be judged on results.
"By that I mean the end of the drugs scene, the end of the beatings, the end of the intimidation and above all else, the end of the instilling of fear in their own communities," the archbishop told the BBC.
"Lift the curtain of fear and let those communities find a political expression for their wishes."
"Huge drugs problem"
In 1994, Jim McDonald had a seat at the top table when the then Combined Loyalist Military Command announced its ceasefire.
Now, he represents the UVF and the Red Hand Commando on the commission, and he accepts that within loyalism there is a "huge" drugs problem:
Frankie Gallagher (right) is a member of the UPRG
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"Paramilitaries contribute at various levels in various areas," he told me, but he said the police were not doing enough to tackle the problem.
I suggested to him that this sounded like passing the buck.
"Surely it is a problem for law and order and, consequently, then it's a problem for the PSNI," he replied.
"And we don't have a problem if they delve, and look, and move in on the drug dealers and the criminals that are there whoever they may be," he told BBC News Online.
Others on the commission, such as Frankie Gallagher of the Ulster Political Research Group - which has links to the UDA, also accepts the credibility of loyalism has been undermined by the criminality and drug dealing of the paramilitaries, and he says that drug dealing must end.
"The Loyalist Commission and the churches can play a main role in that, but they will only facilitate it," Frankie Gallagher told me.
"It's up to the loyalist paramilitaries. They have to deliver."
And that is the challenge for the loyalist paramilitaries: Can they and will they deliver?
They know, and those who are close to them know, that they won't be judged on their words but on their actions.