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Last Updated: Tuesday, 1 May 2007, 12:51 GMT 13:51 UK
Revealed: Bomber transcript
The MI5 document
The MI5 transcript of Khan's conversation
This is a transcript of a conversation bugged by MI5 between Omar Khyam, the jailed ringleader of the fertiliser bomb plot, and Mohammad Sidique Khan, the London suicide bomber. The conversation took place at 8.50pm on the evening of 21 February 2004 in Khyam's car, which MI5 had bugged.

Security sources have told the BBC that, at the time, the conversation was thought to be between members of the fertiliser bomb plot and MI5 did not realise it was Mohammad Sidique Khan.

The BBC has made minor edits to clear up grammatical or syntactical points and to remove extraneous technical data, such as times added to the document by surveillance officers. The BBC has also removed some minor repetition for the sake of brevity. For legal reasons, the BBC has excluded a number of names mentioned in the conversation.

Key highlights:

TRANSCRIPT BEGINS: INTRODUCTION

Note from officer preparing script: Any bracketed text is a summary or interpretation of what the officer has heard. Unclear denotes words missing or people talking over each other. A question mark denotes a work or similar sounding word. Asian male voices including Omar Khyam and two originally unknown males one with a northern English accent the other is identified as Mohammad Sidique Khan (MSK).

KHYAM: You're lucky you have [name] number bro

MSK: You're well early, well early.

MAHMOOD: Alright then bruv
Speaker is Shujah Mahmood, acquitted of all charges in the trial

MSK: How you doing mate ... Is it an inconvenient time?

KHYAM: No we were just sitting (unclear) gone to town (unclear) just follow us year (unclear) when the brother comes year (unclear) What we'll do now is go to the house and park up and you jump in the car how quickly can you (unclear)

MSK: We've got like a list of questions to ask, I know that it's really out of order but I was hoping for a flat extension, you know my wife's having a kid, I was hoping (unclear) I also can get to the hospital (unclear) these guys are good to go as well, basically it can't come quick enough for them

KHYAM: What we'll do is get in the care (unclear) some brothers, (unclear) The thing is do they want (unclear)

MSK: They understand I spent a lot of time this year (unclear) Physically demanding stuff, we go walking (unclear) I've got a new number as well.

KHYAM: All the brothers together yeah (unclear) eighteen hundred pounds (unclear) I went to them today yeah and said I need the money by next Friday. Now the thing is yeah we are going with our brother yeah what I don't want to do is we're going to raise the eighteen hundreds pounds take back to the address.

MSK: Yeah

KHYAM: Right that's there now yeah, but what we want to do or how do we deal this guy now because he's still got extra money yeah but which is ours yeah do we go after them like big brother style (unclear) and get brothers who want to go get done over in the police station or do we forget about it. This is what we are going to follow us about him this I what we were going to discuss, if you give me you numbers (unclear)

MSK: I've got a new sim card and phone (unclear)

KHYAM: (unclear) I think so bro (unclear)

MAHMOOD: leave it here bro

Doors are slammed, no conversation. Media played, believed Shujah (acquitted of all charges) talking while media is playing but this is unclear. Door slams - others enter - conversation unclear due to media playing. Media stops - conversation unclear due to excessive road noise.

MSK: Are you really a terrorist eh?

KHYAM: They're working with us

MSK: You're serious, you are basically

KHYAM: No I'm not a terrorist but they are working through us

MSK: Who are, there's no one higher than you (unclear)

KHYAM: no, ten minutes yeah (door slams)

MSK: Got the list here

Door slams again - believed Omar re-enters

KHYAM: First of all I want to apologise to you when you come down you always end up speaking to him yeah But the only reason that the .. in this country only work that way yeah so instead of making yourself yeah that's why we do it. It's better security for everybody, I want to apologise, I don't want you to feel like you have come four hours

(unclear over talking and laughing)

KHYAM CONTINUES: From what the brother says. He's not going to go and from my understanding is, what I told the brother is that the time for going (unclear) from my understanding is the time again when you just land as a tourist like training camp when you come out of Quebec, but only if you know that time is finished, now is the time that if you go that's it, because every time you come back you're going to make yourself hotter - your youth, travelling into Pakistan and out of Pakistan, and they watch that yeah so when you come back and meet up with the brothers yeah you make the brothers here hotter as well. When you meet brothers those involved in the financing, them hot but overall it is worse. Right now I'm still Emir [thought to mean leader] of the brothers yeah (unclear) they can come, like a one-way or, yeah, if you agree with that yeah it's not a problem.

This is a one-way ticket bruv and you agree with that yeah and you're happy with this and em, err, basically (unclear) because you're going to leave now you may as well rip the country apart economically as well.

All the brothers are running scams and I advise you to do the same (unclear) scam them yeah and get them yeah and you will probably walk away with twenty grand. That's really good money bruv. I can set it all up for you, you can actually go. I will get a brother to run it and I think it is a very good scheme.

All the brothers that leaving are doing it. We'll take their wealth as well I believe it is the purest of wealth even more pure than your nine-to-five jobs. It is the most purest of wealth it ah wealth isn't it. They are taking it from us we are taking it back. So if you are up for it I can do that for you. Now that's all I've got to say bruv is there anything you would like to ask then fire away.

MSK: My extension,

KHYAM: I have something for that bro

MSK: Are you sure

KHYAM: Yeah bro

MSK: The child is due on 25th May. I'd like two maybe three weeks after that just so physically she's ok and the child's alright that is the absolute latest to go is that ok?

KHYAM: No problem bruv.

MSK: Is that ok?

KHYAM: Yeah ok no problem.

MSK: (unclear) travel (unclear)

KHYAM: WE had five (unclear) last year guess how we go them in from Bangladesh all the way across India, into Pakistan, they were on a mission bruv, I don't know why they done it that way yeah they got in and when they left yeah we (unclear) the guy, you know, when you go through the check it was all set up in the visa was right everything (unclear) you as much at risk as a Paki in Pakistan cos why are we there to try and (unclear) the regime and the Kuffar [term for unbelievers] a stand yeah and so are you there is no way you're at less risk than us, it doesn't make us different because we have got Pakistani parents yeah. They are going to go easy, you they're very cool we are going to get (unclear).

MSK: Going through the airport, normal tickets that's ok.

KHYAM: That's ok bruv that's ok that's because you're a Paki.

MSK: (unclear)

KHYAM: If you can do that yeah

MSK: I'll try bro

KHYAM: If you can go with him bro and friends yeah. It's up to you I don't know if you can do that

MSK: (unclear) central customs ? (unclear)

KHYAM: Yeah that's no problem if you can stay with (unclear)

MSK: Childhood friends

KHYAM: Alright bruv get your parents to pick you up

MSK: (unclear) collections what do we need to buy?

KHYAM: I think yeah, if you had time I could take you there. I will tell you what to get but generally, do you lot have to go back tonight, you have to go tonight.

MSK: We can arrange to come back again

KHYAM: All the kit we have is almost ready now and tomorrow morning I could take you to it's about an hour's drive from here where it is all being stocked and I could show you like what we've got and then you could go in.

MSK: I don't want to keep coming down here

KHYAM: I think personally, you go and get a rucksack (unclear) you need er sleeping bag, the one's that go inside, it needs to be compact yeah right. You need one of them.

MSK: Yeah

KHYAM: Emm or boots. This is what I always have, every person, my brother yeah he's got, everyone is different, go for your boots a good pair of boots, go for a breathable jacket, yeah, no need to go for Gortex.

MSK: What about thermal waterproofs?

Conversation continues for nearly two minutes about the relative merits of camping equipment and the costs.

KHYAM: You can take your own passports through the airport (unclear) and don't tell your real name to your emir [leader] don't tell him your real name I know you from here - say you're from Manchester or something. What else. The way we work with money is that whoever is your emir he will take all the wealth and all the other brothers and you two keep all of it together, what happens is that the emir above him will call for a certain amount of money, that your emir will then release that much money, if you or brother need a doctor he will arrange for you to see a doctor, he will pay for it if you need to make a telephone call home he will pay for the telephone call anything you think needs done, he will do it. But Islam it works through the emir everything, so unless he tells you go and (unclear) if he does but otherwise everything goes through him.

MSK: With regards to the babe, I'm debating whether or not to say goodbye and so forth.

KHYAM: You know what my advice is right, these are the brothers I know yeah, very rarely, just know one or two each, very rarely do I meet them now, I don't even live in Crawley anymore I moved out, yeah because in the next month they're going to start raiding big time all the over UK and err (unclear) insh'allah [god willing] when the times comes for me to leave (unclear) at the end of the day by telling them of course you love them bruv, you love them for nadeem? [The BBC interprets this as "the deen", meaning Islamic way of life]. It's because we love nadeem? [see above] this much that we stay away from them coz I know its'; better for me and better for them (unclear) and that's what my advice is.

MSK: There is another brother we've got who's just coming in from all the tests that we have done our general consensus of opinion is that he is not ready for (unclear)

KHYAM: Right now the only thing that we can do yeah is maybe in the summer, is maybe to get him to come over in the summer or and set it up again and send him up there for a few days I think and see if we can get another group of five or six brothers to contact him through one of you lot and tell him to come, and send him up there (unclear) and that's as close as you can get to real life. (unclear) Will you want to keep in contact with this brother or not?

MSK: No. (unclear)

KHYAM: yeah

MSK: He's about 18. How about if we leave him a contact here.

MSK: Will that be alright? (unclear)

KHYAM: I think instead of having contact with you out there that's more dangerous yeah, I will leave a contact brother in Crawley. Yeah but even if he wants to contact you, he comes here or he contacts a brother from Pakistan, these guys will contact us if he wants to go over (unclear) but I want to go he will arrange it with these guys - these guys will contact with us if anything happens Insh'allah [god willing] (unclear)

The only thing, one thing I will advise you yeah, is total obedience to whoever your emir is whether he is Sunni, Arab Chechen Saudi, British, total obedience, I don't know if heard about the (unclear) he disobeyed one order (unclear) lies cut out his throat, I'll tell you up there you can get your head cut off.

All the brothers left except two, and the emir said you can stay because they wanted to go (unclear name) another area yeah and come back. The emir said ok you go there in two days there and two days back, two days gone five days gone, one week went past (unclear) two weeks passed, four weeks went passed bro, then we found out one of them was in Queda? Then in Karachi (unclear) a tribal area down here, then we find out all this was a lie he was in fact still up there with another group now, Pakis yeah working with them and because of that accusations started coming out against us so (unclear) stay quiet, don't expose yourselves yeah and we were ready to take people from England to Pakistan to prove to them, at least the brothers, yeah then I'll go and tomorrow in another Tom, Dick or Harry comes along and says prove to me you've got links, yeah, we can clearly got and just recently about a month ago everything was all they said the visa (unclear) if I ever sat down with you one day and told you how it happened (unclear) and there's some brothers that we used to know yeah that started doubting us and even now they have gone against that (unclear) you've got nothing left bro and they came to Crawley and said, we're sorry bro, and we didn't do nothing.

I'll tell you the biggest lesson that I learned from that bro was total obedience to your emir unless he tells you to do Haram [un-Islamic act] yeah, whether you like it in times of (unclear) what you have to remember he is made emir of you not because [foreign words] he has a reason to be the emir, that's why he is there. It doesn't mean he is better than you, no way. He's better than you that's why we have [foreign word] the final decision is with the emir he will consult you and ask you your advice, but once his decision is made whether it is (unclear)

yeah the second thing is you have understand is that it is not easy as getting into Pakistan and in two weeks you're at the front you'll go to Pakistan, you have to have reason to go to Pakistan, you will be enrolling in colleges, doing electronic courses, computer courses, whatever you want to do and you will be given a normal lifestyle. You're a British guy come to study in Pakistan, it's a lot cheaper here and that's all that will happen for the first few months up to four or five months, we need to get intelligence that they are following us, want them to follow us, until they think that these guys are nothing. When we feel the time is right (unclear) emir operations start (unclear) it all depends on the situation everybody wants to go to the front everybody wants to fight.

It is not about us holding back, we need to know when we send a brother because if we are 50/50 and he gets caught we will be held accountable because we weren't 100%.

But if we had waited an extra month and you would have gone then everything would be cool, but because we made a rash decision, you got caught because you got caught you're going to be tortured, punished, we're going to feel bad - do you understand?

We just gave a brother up for no reason just because you wanted to go to the front. And we wanted to prove that we could get him there, do you understand Insh'allah (unclear) you have to understand, we want to get brothers there we're going to be there ourselves but at the right time, the right move, the Pakis have handed us 500 people amongst them are these British guys, there's no way we can think it's because they're Brits and have got a red passport (unclear).

MSK: How long ...

KHYAM: You won't be sent up from a bad decision from the top yeah do it but otherwise. There's one house which has already been purchased, sorry not purchased, for rent, for rent insh'allah that shall be set up in the next couple of weeks, two bedrooms, spacious ones, for now then all of them. You won't be allowed to take any of the jihad stuff for the flight.

MSK: ... the actual camp ...

KHYAM: What up there? I doubt it, there are loads of things that (unclear) you'll be going into the tribal areas stay with families, you'll be with Arab brothers, Chechen brothers, you'll be told ok operation tomorrow, you get up, go over the border you do your creature?? And you come back into Pakistan as far as I know I don't know if it's changed I don't know that, might happen, there's no such thing as a camp (unclear) something like that, they try to put it on each other as well but, it's something because the brothers won't do nothing you know we just do something, so we just set it up, it costs money you know so we put all the facts together. Is it worth it? Insh'allah we'll find out, we'll get there maybe, too much (unclear).

MSK: How soon are we looking?

KHYAM: That's what going complete yeah. Basically, our lot yeah they're ready within the next three to four weeks, by the end of March. All of these lots will be gone, all the brothers that need to be there will be there now all we need to do is stay in constant contact and so that if you want to pull some scams off yeah.

MSK: yeah ... yeah

KHYAM: If you want to come, say a month later, it's not a problem, but if you want to come first, do you want to these things through then shall I tell you what is basically have you heard of a company called Jewson, Howlands trade manufacturers what we do is we do in there legit open up an account with them, credit, each company will give you between five and seven thousand pounds credit. What it means is that you can buy kitchens, boilers, whatever it takes, now we know about, it's [unnamed individual for legal reasons] yeah, we can all the stuff shipped out really quickly so basically if you've got seven thousand credit you will get half of it, so you get two, five, you open up a few accounts like that, you've got ten grand. Then if you really want to cane them you phone up this place I'll give you, you register a company yeah, you run the same scam, it's nothing dodgy it's a legit scam, it's like basically pulling a loan out and running away with it. It's nothing, like you'll do it and I will authorise money into your account take the money and run. What I need is a name and an address where you want it done, thing is no one, nothing against your address, if they say I need to know your address, if you go they might come around and say where's this guy (unclear)?

Tell me when you're coming down, I'll get all the application forms ready and we will sit down and I will get all the applications ready. The good thing is yeah, once you find the thing done, you can go and the brother, [unnamed individual for legal reasons] will run the scam, he's a major brother coz you can get in contact with him if he's got a problem you can take the money and then it's up to you. The other thing is have you got a credit card? (unclear) You can blag yourself so much did you know that. Have you got a credit card?

MSK: Yes

KHYAM: How many credit cards do you have?

MSK: Only one.

KHYAM: How's your limit?

MSK: Done

KHYAM: That's what I'm saying, come yeah and I'll fill them up, you can lift ? yourself yeah, I was employed. But I kept getting ? credit.

An unclear conversation about credit cards continues

KHYAM: How are you paying all your direct debits on all the accounts? Are they all paid on time now?

MSK: Yeah

KHYAM: Try again yeah what you do is on the side a proper blag yeah. They send you a card yeah with 6000 limit. Went into Barclays yeah

The BBC has removed two lines referring to an individual for legal reasons. Blag bruv pure blag, they sent me a gold card with 2,500 yeah. And gave me 1,000 that's nice and me and a brother who owns a mobile phone shop he's got the machine, he's got a laptop and he's half he swipe it though. The money will go into his account all you do is pay the VAT. He will call out for cash for you, you get cash.

SECOND UNKNOWN MALE, NORTHERN ACCENT: We will work it out bro

KHYAM: Yeah all you do is come down for a day yeah and we will fill in the application forms and apply for all the credit cards

SECOND UNKNOWN MALE, NORTHERN ACCENT: Do that.

KHYAM: Have you got bank accounts?

SECOND UNKNOWN MALE, NORTHERN ACCENT: Yeah my account problem with it (unclear)

KHYAM: Yeah. Ok, have you got an account bro?

SECOND UNKNOWN MALE, NORTHERN ACCENT: Yeah, I got Lloyds

KHYAM: You got Lloyds open up a HSBC ASAP

MSK: (unclear) I've got a Barclays

KHYAM: Have you got a credit card with them

The men talk over each other rendering it unclear

KHYAM: HSBC Barclays (unclear - over-talking ) All you do all you need to do is just give me a date and come down and I'll show you one application and I'll give you all the flights and go and show you exactly how you apply for one and do the same for the others should take you about three weeks if you do it now three to three and a half weeks to get the cards

Movement, doors opening and closing, faint conversation, no more conversation. Track ends




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