![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
You are in: Talking Point | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
Tuesday, 22 August, 2000, 12:30 GMT 13:30 UK
Are some degree courses a joke?
![]() The chief inspector of schools in England, Chris Woodhead has accused universities of devaluing higher education by offering "quasi-academic degrees".
Disclaimer: The BBC will put up as many of your comments as possible but we cannot guarantee that all e-mails will be published. The BBC reserves the right to edit comments that are published.Madonna Studies, golf course management, pig enterprise management, knitwear and beauty therapy courses were cited as examples of degree courses that add little or nothing to students' employment prospects. For many who remember poring over the likes of Plato, Voltaire or Nietzsche, such a turn around in higher education leaves them thinking some new courses just have to be a joke. What do you think? Are many of the degree courses now offered a waste of time? What university course did you do? Did it help or hinder your job prospects?
Steve Dooley, England I gained a degree place at Portsmouth University in 1990 after being turned down twelve times from other institutions. These days, certain campuses seem to get people off the streets to fill up their quotas on questionable courses. What happens today makes my degree feel devalued especially after the trouble I had beforehand to get accepted.
I feel my degree was a joke, and not a very funny one. Before I started my degree, I was hard working, had ambition and passion for my subject. Unfortunately, I found the Computation course at Oxford University so uninteresting, so dry and outdated, that it killed all enthusiasm I had for an IT career. So yes, I believe my course has hindered my job prospects.
I reckon people should be allowed to choose from the widest possible variety of courses. Chris Woodhead is not speaking for the nation, the nation has already spoken - and that is reflected in the courses currently available across the country.
Sadly, this country still suffers from massive snobbery when it comes to education. There is a very definite need for vocational training courses, but employers (and potential applicants) have been were put off BTECs and Polytechnics because of their image. If re-branding them as vocational degrees can turn this around, and ensure adequate training is given to those who don't want to go into academia, then all the better.
Secondly, the three examples given are perfect examples of specialist vocational courses, which wouldn't exist if there weren't a demand, and there wouldn't be a demand if the graduates did not get an advantage from taking them. Why degrees in engineering and not knitwear - it's just archaic snobbery. Finally, a couple of corrections. Having a degree raises lifetime earnings by around 25%, showing a clear preference of employers for degrees. Degrees are not three-year holidays, with the average student now leaving university with debts of around £15k. Neil, UK I studied Russian and East European studies (4 year degree, year abroad) and I consider that to be an academic degree. However, I wanted to work in the media and now work in a top 5 PR company, I never use my language skills and am a colleague of marketing, PR, media business and media studies graduates. What does that say?
Any monkey can get a degree, a large proportion of students at my university couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time, but they got through the degree. I really don't think they are worth much these days.
To Dave Strong: you are an extremely self-confident person to say you "have got a first in a degree from the University of Life". You are certainly showing your age, too - it is almost impossible to get a decent job (one that is well paid and has career prospects) without a degree, although I agree that the subject has become largely irrelevant.
Graham Price, UK
In response to Mr Cowdery, a degree is not a "three year holiday". Student poverty is rife, as is the need to accrue large debts in order to pay for it. Yet again those who want to do well and better themselves are belittled by ignorant comments such as this.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of today's university students would be capable of passing an 11+ (Grammar School Scholarship) examination from 55 years ago. Now that would be a real comparison of standards and "worth".
I think the thing that most people have failed to mention is that graduate employers are now not just looking for a good degrees but also for relevant work experience. I'm expecting my future employer to be taking me more for the fact that I have two years work experience with foreign companies than the fact that I'll have a degree from one of the best universities for languages in this country.
Di Stewart, USA
What can you expect when Prince William elects to study courses in British furniture, architecture and renaissance to obtain a degree in Art History? This will most likely prepare him for cataloguing the remains of the 12 palaces of the House of Windsor.
The biggest problem with these degrees is that by allowing them to be studied, people doing more worthwhile courses are losing funding. I know many people who had to drop out of courses such as Medicine, and Mathematics due to financial constraints. And this carries on while the Government pays most of the course fees for somebody doing Golf Studies or some other joke subject.
We need to ask ourselves what a degree represents. Do we use it as an indication of high academic achievement or is it just a generic qualification? This problem has occurred because of the massive decline in standards across the board in the UK, including education. One indication of this is the number of females doing well in academia. The logic being that the less problem orientated and less creative female brain is more suited to the learning by rote style of the modern education system.
I think that a university degree should reflect a certain amount of serious study.
I am in total disbelief at the shocking state into which the British education system has declined over the past ten years. The courses are getting easier, the students less educated. But HEY - the (completely worthless) results are climbing. WAKE UP! HOW LONG CAN YOU FOOL YOURSELVES INTO THINKING YOU'RE WINNING?
Melissa, US (living in UK) After having seen the recent report on the Association of Graduate Recruiters survey regarding graduates' lack of work skills, it's tempting to believe that a degree these days is worth nothing to potential employers.
Having recently completed research into the 'value' of degrees, I would correct some misapprehensions. Since the advent of mass Higher Education, many middle management and technical posts has been re-designated as 'graduate jobs'. This has meant that the 'cost' of not having a degree has risen, as non-graduates are finding themselves in less and less rewarding work.
With so many companies now not even considering you for a position without a degree in something, is it any wonder that there are a multitude of "joke" degree courses out there?
M. Zahir, UK
Have we forgotten the intrinsic value of education in liberating and broadening the mind? Education is not just about finding a career - it is about enjoyment, challenge and the appreciation of human culture. Chris Woodhead would do well to remember this with regard to schools too.
"James" mentioned that a course made up of 6 hours a week is of questionable worth. During one term of my degree I had 5 hours per week. My next-door neighbour in my hall considered that a heavy week - he averaged 2-3 hours per week. Small wonder a degree is worth virtually nothing these days.
I'm a graduate of Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, University of London, one of Britain's Ivy League. There is an awful lot of snobbery in degrees. I think if pop music lyrics are seen as poetry, then a degree in the study of Madonna has as much validity as a study of the works of the late Poet Laureate Ted Hughes.
Degrees are moderated and have to meet a minimum standard, and if somebody chooses to study something and does it to a high standard then they deserve a degree.
I think the focus should be more on the reliability and consistency of the moderation of the results and not on the title choice of the subject matter.
Take the time to decide what you want to achieve, where you want to be in the future and decide whether a university degree is the only or the best way to achieve it. In NZ we can do university and work part time. It all helps to make up one's mind and to advance in life. Have a clear goal and everything else will follow!
In terms of work and commitment, I don't think my BA could compare to a Science or Law degree.
Natalie, UK
I did an Engineering degree at a UK university
which was made up of 26 hours a week in either
lectures or laboratories. Other students at the
same university doing a Peace Studies degree had
to do a certain number of hours compulsory
swimming each term in order to make up the courses
content hours to qualify for a full grant.
A course made up of 6 hours a week plus some
"additional reading" hardly constitues a degree
level qualification surely ???
The second function is to signal to employers by virtue of having a degree (as well as the class of that degree) that this individual is potentially a productive labour unit. For a degree course to be worthy of taxpayers money it must serve at least one of these two functions. Gareth Sutcliffe, UK I did an Engineering degree at a UK university
which was made up of 26 hours a week in either
lectures or laboratories. Other students at the
same university doing a Peace Studies degree had
to do a certain number of hours compulsory
swimming each term in order to make up the courses
content hours to qualify for a full grant.
A course made up of 6 hours a week plus some
"additional reading" hardly constitutes a degree
level qualification surely?
A degree course is designed to educate an individual to think, understand, hypothesise, analyse, compare, debate and report logically, rationally, rigorously and with clarity. The subject is largely academic. Neither a degree nor a specific vocational qualification is inherently superior to the other: they are different tools for different purposes. Alan L, UK I would love to meet someone who has employed a graduate of Madonna Studies. I spent three years working at my computing degree and am now in a profession where experience counts for more. However to get that experience you need to get your foot in the door, thus the degree. If I was not able to prove my self to my employer I would no doubt be unemployed. I think that the employer now has more responsibility when choosing staff and people with joke degrees will hopefully find it harder that people with proper degrees.
I did a degree in English Literature at Cardiff University. While it is a highly respected course, it amounted to little more than three years spent on extra-curricular activities, with the occasional intrusion of having to read a course book. Many of my peers and friends, including an English literature graduate who went to Oxford, have found it very difficult to find work related to their degree, because it is simply not a mark of any valuable skill. Employers seem to think that vocational qualifications are much more worthwhile, and largely they are right. Studies in Plato, Voltaire or Nietsche may be of little more use.
The place at which I studied invented a new 'business' computing course for which you didn't need A level maths to get in. Within a short while of it starting, the maths department had to run remedial classes for the students on it, because they couldn't handle even the 'less techy' course content.
It is the ability to learn counts, and this is what a graduate should get from university, but failed by some students and universities. Yang, UK
I try in vain to convince my colleague in Germany that
the UK education system is as good if not better than some of our European
counterparts. But they just laugh and point to these silly courses.
I think what the real problem is there are too many people now in the University system that really are not of suitable academic calibre. I had a biology teacher at school ten years ago who gained her degree from a former polytechnic, she was so badly trained that she lost her job and became a Geography teacher. K, England Yes, some degrees are a joke. The art for employers and students is to work out which ones aren't. I for instance am involved in teaching an Internet Computing degree. Many people come to us thinking they'll get an easy ride but we demonstrate quite quickly that this is a computer science degree, albeit on directed towards Internet applications and not just about writing web pages.
University degrees do not seem to distinguish the educated from those who have an institutional education from some department of alleged learning and study. That's why there is a growing number of jobs that require a job application.
Dr Jon B, Sweden
Perhaps we should work out what we think education is and what is it for? How does it differ from instruction? Is its value monetary, or humane (or both?)? But more than anything else, we should be honest with ourselves about how our educational beliefs reflect our underlying ambitions for society.
What Chris Woodhead says may or may not be true.
However, he produces no evidence for his comments, which seem to be based on little more than reading a few degree prospectuses and interpreting them in the light of his own elitist prejudices.
Let's see some evidence, Mr Woodhead, or shut up and confine your remarks to subjects you know more about!
In my opinion, the institutions concerned are simply responding to market demands; after all, there is no evidence to suggest that such graduates are finding it difficult to get into jobs. What should cause more concern is the possibility that these market forces could also cause the standards of "traditional" qualifications to be compromised in some way.
These less "academic" degrees are simply a symptom of the Government's desire to get more people doing degrees. If half the population is going to end up in university there is a necessity to provide a wide range of options in order to tempt them there. The degree is no longer evidence of intellectual ability, and increasing numbers of students are becoming aware that in order to demonstrate that they are "above" the rest they have to do Masters and even Doctorates, which they really do pay for.
Oliver Richardson, UK
There have always been differing levels of degrees. Some were and always will be worth more in the workplace than others. It is up to the employers to research the courses in their field to pick the best grads. If a company ends up employing a Madonna graduate, and finds them less than satisfactory, then it's tough on them. I believe the employer should take much of the burden for costs of university. This would sort out those who are dossing from those who are working towards a career.
I think there is some confusion regarding quality of degree and quality of institution. I read English Literature at a "new university", yet the course I studied was accredited more highly than its next-door Oxbridge equivalent. If a new university offers a degree in a specialist field, that does not mean the subject is neither degree-worthy nor useful in the real world. How many people in the world become full-time astrophysicists, yet how many may choose to study the subject can differ widely.
It's too easy to get on a degree course at the moment, especially the obscure ones. If the minimum grades were raised, there would be less students to distribute government money to and degrees would have more clout. Despite not directly using my degree (Engineering), I have found it essential when applying for a job, showing that they are still worthwhile.
Experience and personality are the factors that get you a job - hardly any employer is interested in a degree anymore - they only really count if you are wanting to work in the professional sectors (solicitor or doctor etc.). Sometimes the degree available from the "University Of Life" is the best qualification one can have - I passed with a first in it! Dave Strong, UK
A degree is supposed to equip the student for employment to replay their debt to society. Perhaps if students had to borrow the money to fund the degree course, then the incentive would be present to take a worthwhile degree, not a three year holiday at the taxpayers expense.
To those that say standards are not slipping. I finished my A-levels in 1989, and passed 5. Among my peers 4 was considered a heavy load and several people wondered how I managed to do 5 (I think only two people in my year completed 5). Now seeing people get 7 grade A's seems to be nothing unusual. I would like to know how the transition from 5 passes being extremely rare to 7 grade A's being relatively commonplace can be seen as anything other than a decline in standards. Small wonder universities have to offer degree courses that appeal to the less intelligent teenagers our current "education" system spews out.
Benj'min Mossop, Britain If there weren't so many people taking these almost fake degrees, perhaps the rest of us wouldn't have to pay fees.
The surest way of hastening the split in the university system between 'Ivy League' institutions and 2nd and 3rd division universities, is to proliferate both the number of institutions, and the number of Micky Mouse courses. What is a Micky Mouse course? By my definition it is one introduced because there is perceived to be a popular demand for it, rather than one based on rigorous academic foundations. A University degree should be of a uniformly high-recognised quality standard. Once we introduce splits into the system, the class system embedded into school education will be perpetuated and reinforced in Higher Education, too.
Chris Klein, UK
Whenever this topic crops up, the Heriot Watt Brewing Degree Course is always mentioned. This is a long standing course which is broadly similar to Chemistry, which is not a 'joke' subject.
Nick Grealy, UK
While being somewhat sceptical of the benefit of classes such as "knitwear" you could at least argue that they are vocational.
Could you really say the same for more traditional courses such as Classics?
I don't know of many people who use their degree subject on a day-to-day basis. What's important in their employment seems to be the analytical and "intellectual" skills they've picked up whilst at university.
John B, UK
An Engineering graduate asks, "How does it work?"
A Science graduate asks, "Why does it work?"
An Accountancy Graduate asks, "How much will it cost?"
A Liberal arts graduate asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
These quasi-academic degrees are a complete waste of taxpayers' money. (Yes I am also a graduate and yes I did a worthwhile degree (Computing).
I believe that the proliferation of courses such as "Health Ethics", "Madonna" and others have devalued the university system. How many people taking these degrees actually get jobs using them? What are the costs to society? Would we be better for instance, removing funding and grants for these courses so that students undertaking those for which we have a skills shortage could be given sufficient funding to complete their studies. I would also like to point out that many of these "degree" courses are unable to fulfil the number of credits necessary and so students must use other departments. Also, they seem to have very few lectures.
|
![]() |
See also:
![]() Internet links:
![]() The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites
Other Talking Points:
![]() |
![]() |
![]() Links to other Talking Point stories
|
![]() |
![]() |
^^ Back to top News Front Page | World | UK | UK Politics | Business | Sci/Tech | Health | Education | Entertainment | Talking Point | In Depth | AudioVideo ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To BBC Sport>> | To BBC Weather>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- © MMIII | News Sources | Privacy |