Are some degree courses a joke?

The chief inspector of schools in England, Chris Woodhead has accused universities of devaluing higher education by offering "quasi-academic degrees".

Madonna Studies, golf course management, pig enterprise management, knitwear and beauty therapy courses were cited as examples of degree courses that add little or nothing to students' employment prospects.

For many who remember poring over the likes of Plato, Voltaire or Nietzsche, such a turn around in higher education leaves them thinking some new courses just have to be a joke.

What do you think? Are many of the degree courses now offered a waste of time? What university course did you do? Did it help or hinder your job prospects?

I spent three years carefully studying the pubs, bars and nightlife at my chosen town. It is safe to say I am an expert on just about every licensed establishment in the area. Can I get a degree for it?
Pete Marsh, UK

In our Alice in Wonderland world everyone is equal and all shall have degrees.

Steve Dooley, England

The abolition of the 11+, changing from O-Levels to GCSE's, labelling Polytechnics as Universities, reduction of standards in A-levels, and now the joke degree courses. "Everyone must win and all shall have prizes." In our Alice in Wonderland world everyone is equal and all shall have degrees.
Steve Dooley, England

I gained a degree place at Portsmouth University in 1990 after being turned down twelve times from other institutions. These days, certain campuses seem to get people off the streets to fill up their quotas on questionable courses. What happens today makes my degree feel devalued especially after the trouble I had beforehand to get accepted.
Julian Papworth, UK

I feel my degree was a joke, and not a very funny one. Before I started my degree, I was hard working, had ambition and passion for my subject. Unfortunately, I found the Computation course at Oxford University so uninteresting, so dry and outdated, that it killed all enthusiasm I had for an IT career. So yes, I believe my course has hindered my job prospects.
F, UK

I reckon people should be allowed to choose from the widest possible variety of courses. Chris Woodhead is not speaking for the nation, the nation has already spoken - and that is reflected in the courses currently available across the country.
Matt H., UK

Sadly, this country still suffers from massive snobbery when it comes to education. There is a very definite need for vocational training courses, but employers (and potential applicants) have been were put off BTECs and Polytechnics because of their image. If re-branding them as vocational degrees can turn this around, and ensure adequate training is given to those who don't want to go into academia, then all the better.
Stuart, UK

Why degrees in engineering and not knitwear - it's just archaic snobbery

Neil, UK

Firstly, why anyone listens to Chris Woodhead about anything, I do not know.
Secondly, the three examples given are perfect examples of specialist vocational courses, which wouldn't exist if there weren't a demand, and there wouldn't be a demand if the graduates did not get an advantage from taking them. Why degrees in engineering and not knitwear - it's just archaic snobbery.
Finally, a couple of corrections. Having a degree raises lifetime earnings by around 25%, showing a clear preference of employers for degrees. Degrees are not three-year holidays, with the average student now leaving university with debts of around £15k.
Neil, UK

I studied Russian and East European studies (4 year degree, year abroad) and I consider that to be an academic degree. However, I wanted to work in the media and now work in a top 5 PR company, I never use my language skills and am a colleague of marketing, PR, media business and media studies graduates. What does that say?
Sarah, London, UK

Any monkey can get a degree, a large proportion of students at my university couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time, but they got through the degree. I really don't think they are worth much these days.
Baz, England

To Dave Strong: you are an extremely self-confident person to say you "have got a first in a degree from the University of Life". You are certainly showing your age, too - it is almost impossible to get a decent job (one that is well paid and has career prospects) without a degree, although I agree that the subject has become largely irrelevant.
You have to start somewhere, and unless you are prepared to spend years getting paid pennies and working all hours, you'll do much better to spend that time at university where you meet more diverse people and learn more social skills than anywhere else. For the record: I studied science and am now doing a job I really enjoy that requires a degree IN MY SUBJECT!
Caroline, UK

Classics graduates enjoy a high proportion of swift recruitment after leaving university

Graham Price, UK

I live with an ex-chemist who readily agrees that I use my degree (Classics) on a day-to-day basis more than he ever will in our shared career (internet technologies). Tim Pearce might be interested to hear that Classics develops analytical, linguistic and logical skills, as well as encouraging creativity and articulacy. A good Classics graduate is in a fine position to pick up a European language quickly, articulate his/ herself correctly in English (not so common these days), and research, analyse and put together arguments and strategies; all of which seem to me to be ideal qualities for any high-level career in the City. No surprise then that Classics graduates enjoy a high proportion of swift recruitment after leaving university.
Graham Price, UK

In response to Mr Cowdery, a degree is not a "three year holiday". Student poverty is rife, as is the need to accrue large debts in order to pay for it. Yet again those who want to do well and better themselves are belittled by ignorant comments such as this.
Vicki Birch, UK

It would be interesting to know what percentage of today's university students would be capable of passing an 11+ (Grammar School Scholarship) examination from 55 years ago. Now that would be a real comparison of standards and "worth".
David Baynes, Canada

I think the thing that most people have failed to mention is that graduate employers are now not just looking for a good degrees but also for relevant work experience. I'm expecting my future employer to be taking me more for the fact that I have two years work experience with foreign companies than the fact that I'll have a degree from one of the best universities for languages in this country.
Ed, UK

Unfortunately, the UK has latched on to another US fad - the sale of education at any cost

Di Stewart, USA

Unfortunately, the UK has latched on to another US fad - the sale of education at any cost. It's all about generating profit. I admit I have no degree but that said, I believe I have had a better basic education than some of the college grads I have worked with. In many cases their English and maths skills were deplorable and they relied on people like me to clean up their work.
Di Stewart, USA

What can you expect when Prince William elects to study courses in British furniture, architecture and renaissance to obtain a degree in Art History? This will most likely prepare him for cataloguing the remains of the 12 palaces of the House of Windsor.
Jerath, Ph.D., USA

The biggest problem with these degrees is that by allowing them to be studied, people doing more worthwhile courses are losing funding. I know many people who had to drop out of courses such as Medicine, and Mathematics due to financial constraints. And this carries on while the Government pays most of the course fees for somebody doing Golf Studies or some other joke subject.
Stu, England

We need to ask ourselves what a degree represents. Do we use it as an indication of high academic achievement or is it just a generic qualification? This problem has occurred because of the massive decline in standards across the board in the UK, including education. One indication of this is the number of females doing well in academia. The logic being that the less problem orientated and less creative female brain is more suited to the learning by rote style of the modern education system.
Mark, UK

I think that a university degree should reflect a certain amount of serious study.
Sidney Curtis, England

I am in total disbelief at the shocking state into which the British education system has declined over the past ten years. The courses are getting easier, the students less educated. But HEY - the (completely worthless) results are climbing. WAKE UP! HOW LONG CAN YOU FOOL YOURSELVES INTO THINKING YOU'RE WINNING?
Jonathan King, Switzerland (Brit)

University is about how you learn, not what you learn. Bravo to the Madonna Studies graduates.

Melissa, US (living in UK)

I cracked a smile at Wiggsy's liberal arts slogan: "Do you want fries with that?" I was an English major at a prestigious US liberal arts school, and I'm doing okay actually. I enjoyed four years of literary exploration and studies in writing (a marketable skill if ever there were one), and now I enjoy my office position - as a freelance writer. University is about how you learn, not what you learn. Bravo to the Madonna Studies graduates.
Melissa, US (living in UK)

After having seen the recent report on the Association of Graduate Recruiters survey regarding graduates' lack of work skills, it's tempting to believe that a degree these days is worth nothing to potential employers.
After having spent a summer trying to gain as many extra-curricular qualifications as possible in order to gain some work experience when I go back to university in September, I think it is worth pointing out that it would not have been possible for me to take a gap year as I simply could not have afforded to do so. In a world where the gap year is increasingly becoming the domain of those students whose parents can afford to fund them, are we not in danger of seeing students from poorer backgrounds being further discriminated against in the job market?
Ben, UK

Having recently completed research into the 'value' of degrees, I would correct some misapprehensions. Since the advent of mass Higher Education, many middle management and technical posts has been re-designated as 'graduate jobs'. This has meant that the 'cost' of not having a degree has risen, as non-graduates are finding themselves in less and less rewarding work.
A UK degree is still valuable - perhaps more so - regardless of subject area. Chris Woodhead and others forget that not every graduate wants to be an accountant, lawyer or engineer. For example, a knitwear degree is perfect training for someone seeking to set up a small textiles company. Or perhaps it is just societal sexism that makes knitwear a comedy subject...
Neil, UK

With so many companies now not even considering you for a position without a degree in something, is it any wonder that there are a multitude of "joke" degree courses out there?
Neil, UK

As a lecturer in higher education, I have to agree with Chris Woodhead's comments

M. Zahir, UK

As a lecturer in higher education, I have to agree with Chris Woodhead's comments. We are under so much pressure to get and KEEP bums on seats that anything goes. Silly titles and subject content are now the norm. Today's education is largely based on students doing very little intellectually challenging work. Most are passing through the system based on their efforts in assignment work, which doesn't really assess the individual's ability. Students tend to have a poor command of English and can't cope with the simplest mental sums without a calculator. Standards of most UK degrees have been lowered. The message given by the funding system is that if you don't lower the standard of your degree then it won't attract students.
M. Zahir, UK

Have we forgotten the intrinsic value of education in liberating and broadening the mind? Education is not just about finding a career - it is about enjoyment, challenge and the appreciation of human culture. Chris Woodhead would do well to remember this with regard to schools too.
Neil, UK

"James" mentioned that a course made up of 6 hours a week is of questionable worth. During one term of my degree I had 5 hours per week. My next-door neighbour in my hall considered that a heavy week - he averaged 2-3 hours per week. Small wonder a degree is worth virtually nothing these days.
John S, UK

I'm a graduate of Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, University of London, one of Britain's Ivy League. There is an awful lot of snobbery in degrees. I think if pop music lyrics are seen as poetry, then a degree in the study of Madonna has as much validity as a study of the works of the late Poet Laureate Ted Hughes. Degrees are moderated and have to meet a minimum standard, and if somebody chooses to study something and does it to a high standard then they deserve a degree. I think the focus should be more on the reliability and consistency of the moderation of the results and not on the title choice of the subject matter.
Gavin Pearson, USA

Take the time to decide what you want to achieve, where you want to be in the future and decide whether a university degree is the only or the best way to achieve it. In NZ we can do university and work part time. It all helps to make up one's mind and to advance in life. Have a clear goal and everything else will follow!
Claire, New Zealand

In terms of work and commitment, I don't think my BA could compare to a Science or Law degree.
Paul Reddy, Denmark

It's not just the value of degree courses that are in question, it's the jobs that are available when you leave university

Natalie,UK

Despite gaining a good degree in my chosen subject (Archaeology), I was unable to find a well paid related job straight away. So into an office I went (on a purely temp basis) and two and half years later I am still here. Why? Because having a degree in a worthwhile subject is no guarantee that there are worthwhile jobs out there. My partner, who actually works within archaeology, earns much less than myself, despite having much greater responsibilities. It's not just the value of degree courses that are in question, it's the jobs that are available when you leave university.
Natalie, UK

I did an Engineering degree at a UK university which was made up of 26 hours a week in either lectures or laboratories. Other students at the same university doing a Peace Studies degree had to do a certain number of hours compulsory swimming each term in order to make up the courses content hours to qualify for a full grant. A course made up of 6 hours a week plus some "additional reading" hardly constitues a degree level qualification surely ???
James, England

A number of the degree courses on offer at British universities are laughable.

Gareth Sutcliffe, UK

A number of the degree courses on offer at British universities are laughable. As far as I can see, a degree course can serve two functions. The first is to make the student a more productive labour unit. This need not involve a vocational course, as academic courses which train an individual to think and communicate clearly are productivity enhancing.
The second function is to signal to employers by virtue of having a degree (as well as the class of that degree) that this individual is potentially a productive labour unit. For a degree course to be worthy of taxpayers money it must serve at least one of these two functions.
Gareth Sutcliffe, UK

I did an Engineering degree at a UK university which was made up of 26 hours a week in either lectures or laboratories. Other students at the same university doing a Peace Studies degree had to do a certain number of hours compulsory swimming each term in order to make up the courses content hours to qualify for a full grant. A course made up of 6 hours a week plus some "additional reading" hardly constitutes a degree level qualification surely?
James, England

A degree course is designed to educate an individual to think, understand, hypothesise, analyse, compare, debate and report logically, rationally, rigorously and with clarity

Alan L, UK

We run the risk of losing sight of what a university degree actually is. Degrees in the UK are not generally designed to increase an individual's job prospects (they may do, but that's incidental rather than intended). Vocational training (whether paid for by the individual or provided by the company) is.
A degree course is designed to educate an individual to think, understand, hypothesise, analyse, compare, debate and report logically, rationally, rigorously and with clarity. The subject is largely academic.
Neither a degree nor a specific vocational qualification is inherently superior to the other: they are different tools for different purposes.
Alan L, UK

I would love to meet someone who has employed a graduate of Madonna Studies. I spent three years working at my computing degree and am now in a profession where experience counts for more. However to get that experience you need to get your foot in the door, thus the degree. If I was not able to prove my self to my employer I would no doubt be unemployed. I think that the employer now has more responsibility when choosing staff and people with joke degrees will hopefully find it harder that people with proper degrees.
Daniel Bryk, England

I did a degree in English Literature at Cardiff University. While it is a highly respected course, it amounted to little more than three years spent on extra-curricular activities, with the occasional intrusion of having to read a course book. Many of my peers and friends, including an English literature graduate who went to Oxford, have found it very difficult to find work related to their degree, because it is simply not a mark of any valuable skill. Employers seem to think that vocational qualifications are much more worthwhile, and largely they are right. Studies in Plato, Voltaire or Nietsche may be of little more use.
Joe, Wales

The place at which I studied invented a new 'business' computing course for which you didn't need A level maths to get in. Within a short while of it starting, the maths department had to run remedial classes for the students on it, because they couldn't handle even the 'less techy' course content.
Phil, UK

It is the ability to learn counts, and this is what a graduate should get from university

Yang, UK

The most significant achievement of a university course is the development of the ability to learn and to apply what has been leant to real world. In most of the cases what you have or have not learnt in university does not really matter nor does the actual course.
It is the ability to learn counts, and this is what a graduate should get from university, but failed by some students and universities.
Yang, UK

I try in vain to convince my colleague in Germany that the UK education system is as good if not better than some of our European counterparts. But they just laugh and point to these silly courses.
To the international community Britain is slowly becoming a joke and I find it sad considering I spent 4 years at university honing my engineering skills for the international job market. My degree is respected abroad. But some universities are undermining this international confidence and if we are not careful we'll be left behind like we are in every other aspect of international life. Maybe we ought to be looking at government accreditation of Universities rather than courses.
Mark Lisle , Germany (UK citizen)

I think what the real problem is there are too many people now in the University system that really are not of suitable academic calibre

K, England

Why all the fuss about knitting, provided its part of a textiles or material science course then what's the problem, I'm sure the DERA does a lot of research into textiles, new and novel fabrics for soldiers!
I think what the real problem is there are too many people now in the University system that really are not of suitable academic calibre. I had a biology teacher at school ten years ago who gained her degree from a former polytechnic, she was so badly trained that she lost her job and became a Geography teacher.
K, England

Yes, some degrees are a joke. The art for employers and students is to work out which ones aren't. I for instance am involved in teaching an Internet Computing degree. Many people come to us thinking they'll get an easy ride but we demonstrate quite quickly that this is a computer science degree, albeit on directed towards Internet applications and not just about writing web pages.
For a change Chris Woodhead has said something relatively sensible. Some lower quality degree courses and the push to fill places for financial reasons have put great pressure on standards but there those of us in the academic sector who try very hard to maintain the quality we feel a graduate should attain.
Darren Stephens, UK

University degrees do not seem to distinguish the educated from those who have an institutional education from some department of alleged learning and study. That's why there is a growing number of jobs that require a job application.
Alexander Saradetch, UK

So long as there is pressure to push more people into University, the lower the standard a degree will represent

Dr Jon B, Sweden

Having worked in a UK academic environment, degrees have now replaced "A" levels as a standard of academic achievement. So long as there is pressure to push more people into University, the lower the standard a degree will represent. It is becoming a waste of three/ four years of one's prime in life.
Dr Jon B, Sweden

Perhaps we should work out what we think education is and what is it for? How does it differ from instruction? Is its value monetary, or humane (or both?)? But more than anything else, we should be honest with ourselves about how our educational beliefs reflect our underlying ambitions for society.
Stephen, UK

What Chris Woodhead says may or may not be true. However, he produces no evidence for his comments, which seem to be based on little more than reading a few degree prospectuses and interpreting them in the light of his own elitist prejudices. Let's see some evidence, Mr Woodhead, or shut up and confine your remarks to subjects you know more about!
John K,

In my opinion, the institutions concerned are simply responding to market demands; after all, there is no evidence to suggest that such graduates are finding it difficult to get into jobs. What should cause more concern is the possibility that these market forces could also cause the standards of "traditional" qualifications to be compromised in some way.
Ubong Effeh, UK

These less "academic" degrees are simply a symptom of the Government's desire to get more people doing degrees. If half the population is going to end up in university there is a necessity to provide a wide range of options in order to tempt them there. The degree is no longer evidence of intellectual ability, and increasing numbers of students are becoming aware that in order to demonstrate that they are "above" the rest they have to do Masters and even Doctorates, which they really do pay for.
RL, UK

In this day and age a degree in golf course management is more likely to get you a good job than a degree in classics

Oliver Richardson, UK

In this day and age a degree in golf course management is more likely to get you a good job than a degree in classics. Why shouldn't degrees be more vocational? Courses should be sponsored by industry to ensure academia is responding to the needs of business as well as students. How many people on the dole have degrees in philosophy?
Oliver Richardson, UK

There have always been differing levels of degrees. Some were and always will be worth more in the workplace than others. It is up to the employers to research the courses in their field to pick the best grads. If a company ends up employing a Madonna graduate, and finds them less than satisfactory, then it's tough on them. I believe the employer should take much of the burden for costs of university. This would sort out those who are dossing from those who are working towards a career.
Matt, Amsterdam, Netherlands (ex. UK)

I think there is some confusion regarding quality of degree and quality of institution. I read English Literature at a "new university", yet the course I studied was accredited more highly than its next-door Oxbridge equivalent. If a new university offers a degree in a specialist field, that does not mean the subject is neither degree-worthy nor useful in the real world. How many people in the world become full-time astrophysicists, yet how many may choose to study the subject can differ widely.
Steve Dowe, UK

It's too easy to get on a degree course at the moment, especially the obscure ones. If the minimum grades were raised, there would be less students to distribute government money to and degrees would have more clout. Despite not directly using my degree (Engineering), I have found it essential when applying for a job, showing that they are still worthwhile.
Matthew S, UK

Sometimes the degree available from the "University Of Life" is the best qualification one can have

Dave Strong, UK

I really don't see that degrees are as necessary as they once were, largely due to the fact that so many people now possess one and that some of the courses on offer do seem to be completely ridiculous. I think that a lot of graduates would do better to improve their social skills instead of just trying to rack up a lot of qualifications which are irrelevant to the modern workplace.
Experience and personality are the factors that get you a job - hardly any employer is interested in a degree anymore - they only really count if you are wanting to work in the professional sectors (solicitor or doctor etc.). Sometimes the degree available from the "University Of Life" is the best qualification one can have - I passed with a first in it!
Dave Strong, UK

A degree is supposed to equip the student for employment to replay their debt to society. Perhaps if students had to borrow the money to fund the degree course, then the incentive would be present to take a worthwhile degree, not a three year holiday at the taxpayers expense.
Chris Cowdery, UK

To those that say standards are not slipping. I finished my A-levels in 1989, and passed 5. Among my peers 4 was considered a heavy load and several people wondered how I managed to do 5 (I think only two people in my year completed 5). Now seeing people get 7 grade A's seems to be nothing unusual. I would like to know how the transition from 5 passes being extremely rare to 7 grade A's being relatively commonplace can be seen as anything other than a decline in standards. Small wonder universities have to offer degree courses that appeal to the less intelligent teenagers our current "education" system spews out.
Karl Peters, UK

A general simplification of the entire education system is in order

Benj'min Mossop, Britain

While it is important to offer students the opportunity to study a wide variety of specialised subjects at degree level it should be taken into account that it is also possible to step over the limit somewhat. 'Madonna Studies' is certainly an example of overstepping the mark to a comical degree (no pun intended). A general simplification of the entire education system is in order I think and Chris Woodhead's argument is by no means a solitary one. I would like to be taught a wider range of subjects at secondary level but whilst this would serve to be productive, especially for students who reject academic subjects and want to move directly into an employment area. However, a degree in the works of Madonna is unlikely to give anyone a boost in their career prospects.
Benj'min Mossop, Britain

If there weren't so many people taking these almost fake degrees, perhaps the rest of us wouldn't have to pay fees.
Rm, UK

The surest way of hastening the split in the university system between 'Ivy League' institutions and 2nd and 3rd division universities, is to proliferate both the number of institutions, and the number of Micky Mouse courses. What is a Micky Mouse course? By my definition it is one introduced because there is perceived to be a popular demand for it, rather than one based on rigorous academic foundations. A University degree should be of a uniformly high-recognised quality standard. Once we introduce splits into the system, the class system embedded into school education will be perpetuated and reinforced in Higher Education, too.
John, UK

The rot set in with conversion of polytechnics into "universities"

Chris Klein, UK

The rot set in with conversion of polytechnics into "universities". The current rash of pseudo-degrees are objects of derision and a waste of money. However, so long as educational establishments are funded on the "bums-on-seats" principle, the less discriminating establishments will offer anything to secure their position. By way of a postscript, my degree is in economics and history. It was directly relevant to my service in the Army, but has been essential evidence in my careers of a "trained brain".
Chris Klein, UK

Whenever this topic crops up, the Heriot Watt Brewing Degree Course is always mentioned. This is a long standing course which is broadly similar to Chemistry, which is not a 'joke' subject.
Doug, UK

Any other country in the world rightly congratulates itself when there is an increase in educational attainment, but not the UK

Nick Grealy, UK

The sneering of the Woodhead camp, who hold the view that any degree not from Oxbridge is not worth having, is typical of the English disease of standards. Replace "class" with standards in the debate and see that anyone who isn't the top is considered not quite as good. Next week, for example, when the A level results come out, the same old arguments of how standards are declining are trotted out simply because more people are receiving them. Any other country in the world rightly congratulates itself when there is an increase in educational attainment, but not the UK!
Nick Grealy, UK

While being somewhat sceptical of the benefit of classes such as "knitwear" you could at least argue that they are vocational. Could you really say the same for more traditional courses such as Classics?
Tim Pearce, UK

I don't know of many people who use their degree subject on a day-to-day basis. What's important in their employment seems to be the analytical and "intellectual" skills they've picked up whilst at university.
Richard N, London

I think that for the most part, a bachelor's degree is barely worth the paper it's written on

John B, UK

I think that for the most part, a bachelor's degree is barely worth the paper it's written on. I have a degree that is totally unrelated to my line of work and it adds very little to my employment prospects. When I see people drop out of A-levels, spend three years on the dole and then go to university to "study" Media Studies because there's not much else to do and someone else picks up the tab, I despair at the state of our education system. If less money was thrown at the losers and dossers, the students who actually want to work and better themselves wouldn't have to be so crippled by debts.
John B, UK

An Engineering graduate asks, "How does it work?" A Science graduate asks, "Why does it work?" An Accountancy Graduate asks, "How much will it cost?" A Liberal arts graduate asks, "Do you want fries with that?" These quasi-academic degrees are a complete waste of taxpayers' money. (Yes I am also a graduate and yes I did a worthwhile degree (Computing).
Wiggsy, England

I believe that the proliferation of courses such as "Health Ethics", "Madonna" and others have devalued the university system. How many people taking these degrees actually get jobs using them? What are the costs to society? Would we be better for instance, removing funding and grants for these courses so that students undertaking those for which we have a skills shortage could be given sufficient funding to complete their studies. I would also like to point out that many of these "degree" courses are unable to fulfil the number of credits necessary and so students must use other departments. Also, they seem to have very few lectures.
Jen, UK