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Thursday, 6 July, 2000, 11:40 GMT 12:40 UK
Europe: Is Britain being left on the sidelines?
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Ahead of Tony Blair's visit to Germany this week, French President Jacques Chirac has issued one of the clearest calls so far for some European countries to press ahead with political and economic union ahead of the rest.
Speaking in Berlin, he called for France and Germany to set up a "pioneer group" leading rapid European integration. Britain says the EU should be concentrating on enlargement, not creating a two-speed Europe, yet already some countries are going ahead with the euro, whether or not Britain decides to join. With Paris and Berlin apparently determined to push ahead with integration, is Britain getting left behind? Will London be left watching from the sidelines as the rest of Europe shapes the political future of the continent? Your reaction
A. Fripono, UK
Great Britain has always been at the heart of Europe, therefore it should form part of the Euro.
All of Europe is going one way and the UK cannot afford to go in the opposite direction.
We are supposed to be booming in this country, yet the average European seems to be "better off" than we are. They also appear to be more organised.
David, UK
If Europe is so desirable, why are the Investment Banks putting their money into the USA and the UK? Most likely because they lack confidence in the system that has been set up. If the UK joined the single currency, unemployment would reach stratospheric levels. It would be better to join the USA as a 51st state, or remain totally independent.
The UK has always welcomed free trade,but the EU is not about free trade...it's about protectionism and eventual tax harmonisation which will ultimately lead to a single tax-raising body. By all means argue the case for joining the EU in full if you are happy with a federal Europe, but don't pretend that it's some kind of extension to free trade or that it won't inevitably result in a single state if it's to work. What exactly are we going to miss out on by not joining up? Currency stability? Yes, if you mean a rapidly falling currency over the last 18 months. Inward investment?...the UK's has never been higher and is more than Germany and France put together! Give me flexibility, not bureaucracy.
In my twenty years working in Europe as a European Civil servant, I never found that the presence of the British at a meeting had ANY influence on the French-German alliance. Joining their "Euro" club will not change this.
Personally I'd rather join an Anglo-Saxon union of Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa than any European union.
Whether joining the euro is a good thing or not is something that should be looked into in depth. A rushed decision on a matter so large will be beneficial to no one.
Matthew Godwin, France
T.J. Cassidy, USA
The arguments for joining the Euro are completely devoid of logic.
Some people seem to think that if you want to retain independence you are a "xenophobic little Englander". Why?
I love French wine, I like going on holiday to Europe but we're not talking about getting on well with Europe here, we're talking about giving up the power to control our economy to unelected, unaccountable beaurocrats.
Others have described this as a "project" and an "experiment" This is not a decision we can take lightly, it will be irrevocable.
The original architects of this high-speed integration were Helmut Kohl and Francois Mitterand. Both leaders have been exposed as very dishonest men, with a level of personal and political corruption that transcends anything we have experienced on these islands for decades.
We should not be coerced into joining political institutions, which have this kind of corruption at their foundations.
Liz, Japan (originally UK)
The ultimate goal of the EU has always been a federal state, which makes Britain's position a difficult one. The EU has the potential to rival the USA as an economic power, which is a good thing, but would the British voice in a federal Europe be any stronger than in a looser alliance with America and Canada (perhaps involving the Scandinavian countries, where English is widely spoken, as well)?
The usual nonsense. "Britain cannot survive outside" - directly contradicted
by the real world in which tiny Switzerland prospers, Canada has
not become part of the USA, indeed just like most other countries.
Why did not Ireland become part of the UK in this case - or indeed abandon it's
currency union with the UK, it's largest and nearest market?
Other than this the argument descends into calling anyone who doesn't like the
EU (or perhaps I should be calling it "Europe" as so many writers wrongly do)
as being racists or xenophobes or "Little Englanders"; itself a xenophobic
remark. Since when did opposing a political/economic organisation (just like the EU is)
a racist or xenophobe?
What I don't understand is this. If we have to wait until our economies converge before we can 'safely' join the Euro what can we do if, after we join, they start to diverge; can we come out for a bit until they converge again. My guess is that we're not supposed to ask that question. Don't tell me economies won't diverge: we known they do - even in a small place like the UK we have economically depressed areas which suffer during the economic cycles that seem as inevitable as the seasons.
It's Europe or the Third World. That's the reality of economic globalisation and its coming our way. Anyone who thinks this country can survive long term outside of the Euro is dangerously deluded. Get real !
How can William Hague and the other Euro-sceptics believe they can and should be "in Europe but not run by Europe", when the mere fact that they want to distance themselves from the decision-makers in the EU only precipitates the UK being run by Europe. We cannot beat 'em on our own, so we must and should join 'em - it's purely pragmatic and for economic reasons. Most people are against it because of little more than crude racism and the desire to see the Queen's head on our banknotes. When millions of jobs are at stake, such concerns look even more pathetic.
I think, opponents of a federal Europe confuse some things.
1. The present characteristic of the EU, which is indeed undemocratic and bureaucratic in its results, is caused by the national states. They want to cope with European-wide issues while desperately trying to keep up their national sovereignty at the same time.
2. A federal state is not a superstate ruling into everything
3. If we in Europe - based on our high economic and educational level- are not able to create a common (federal) political system and will for ethnically different peoples - how shall states like India, South Africa or Congo?
Richard, England
The big question is not the integration of the UK in the European Union, but the need for a new Marshall Plan for the Eastern Europe countries. After all, for every Englishman, there are 6 East Europeans waiting (in vain?) for a helping hand from Western Europe. Shall we abandon them to Communism and poverty again, like the UK and the US did in WW2?
How can we fail to learn the lessons of the collapse of the Soviet Union (or even nearer home, the pressure for Irish or Scots independence)? Artificial unions of countries do not work and eventually break up in chaos. How long will it be before we have an "English Liberation Army" or a "French Republican Army" planting bombs in Brussels? If we proceed much further down the integrationist path we could be condemning our children to chaos and conflict.
Jonny Moss, UK
If Murray values his "Britishness" why does he advocate closer union with the US? If we did this, we would lose our accent, our mannerisms and way of life; in short everything he thinks of as making us British. As to whether we could successfully maintain our identity within Europe, I think we could. For an example of being able to maintain a different language and different customs, he should speak to a member of an ethnic minority group in Leicester or London in the UK.
As a Brit living in Australia I now see the UK/ EU love/ hate relationship a little differently than I did when I was living in the UK. In the end it's all about money. The UK's trade is mostly with other EU countries. This will eventually determine the outcome but don't hold your breath. Until the need to take the Euro as our currency is precipitated by external events, nothing will happen. That's okay, as things will happen fast enough when it hits UK citizens in their pockets. Meanwhile expect gentle coaxing by UK politicians as they try to speed the decision while not upsetting its proud and stubborn islanders.
I don't understand you Britons. Where is your faith in yourselves? You are a resourceful people and should be proud to remain who you are without having corrupt leaders from countries who don't understand you forcing you to conform. I respect you much more than that. This issue of being the 51st state of the USA is so lame. Remember who you are and have faith in your own abilities. The USA, Canada, and Mexico don't have a common currency, nor are we under one government but we trade with one another and retain our identities.
Jim Pearn, UK
Integration is the way forward. The UK tabloid press and popular opinion won't allow Britain to do this. It's a shame that Tony Blair doesn't have the courage to take on the press for what is right for Britain. I wish we were at the heart of Europe but we are not. If Tony thinks Europe will hang around forever waiting for him to gather up the courage to dip his toes into the water he has another thing coming.
It is very hard to understand the point of view of those contributors to this discussion who think that this country cannot survive without becoming part of a wider political union. Have they no pride in their country's institutions and history? Have we really lost the ability to govern ourselves despite having a unique record of political stability and the world's fourth largest economy? If the 11 Euro countries do wish to integrate politically, let them go ahead. I just can't see any good reason why we should wish to join them.
As an exporter, I am happy to retain independence of action, both political and economic. There is no evidence to suggest that Britain is or will be left behind if we decide not to adopt the Euro or opt for greater integration with the Euro block. Since our taxation is lower, our unemployment lower, our regulation lower than the rest of the Euro block, I do not see how we are "being left behind".
Neil, UK
I agree with many of the views expressed here, that the UK is not in a position to hold its own outside of Europe or some other union. Whilst it may be drastic to suggest that Britain becomes the 51st state of the US, it would be far more in keeping with Britain's culture and economy to join NAFTA rather than involve ourselves further with Europe's political goals.
I see a great revival of the garlic pork sausage, as it is the only thing Germany and France have in common!
I'd like to see a two speed Britain where those who want lower prices and more jobs are able to live in the same country as those who prefer to see the Queen's head stamped all over their unemployment forms.
Peter Hall, Great Britain
At present the wealthier nations, UK, Germany, France are all net contributors to the EU, while the poorer countries like Ireland and Portugal, despite having higher GDP per head than the UK are net beneficiaries. If we integrate further, the imbalances will increase as the Communists running the EU will want everything to be equal. Also, if further members from the former Eastern Bloc join, this will make the problem worse, to the point of needing an additional 5p income tax in order to support them. The UK is best off out of the EU and teamed up with the US.
James Kennedy, UK
I am sure we would all be better off in a Europe run by liberal institutions like the European Commission. It is important that the rulers of Germany and France do not allow democracy to affect the forthcoming liberal European institutions. It is far better if the key players in such institutions continue to be appointed, as at present. A legal constitution is the ideal way to dictate the future of Europe, not democracy. This latter will undo everything that has been achieved thus far, unless it continues to be kept at arms length by the European institutions.
Shaun Curtis, Canada
Britain's pressure to quickly enlarge the community is dangerous. Perhaps over a very long time it may work. But already Germany is having employment and social problems in the East as more and more old Soviet bloc workers come into the country to work very cheaply, taking jobs away from Germans and causing significant resentment. If the other Eastern countries are quickly brought into EU membership, the floodgates will open bringing frightening social problems as millions of Eastern workers pour into the better off Western Europe.There is not enough wealth in Western Europe to support any quick development of the Eastern states.
Gillian, Scotland
Left behind? The question would suggest that Europe is heading somewhere we want to go. I'm afraid the European Parliament is full of corrupt, befuddled, geriatric bureaucrats with nothing better to do than generate useless legislation. On the contrary, I'd say we've left Europe behind. Good riddance!
The EU has done nothing to endear itself to the British public and it sits there wondering why we are not enthusiastic about it like the sheep from other countries. So far we have seen the rise of a joke currency, had laws overturned, seen corruption in the lowest and highest ranks of the EU Parliament as well as double-standards set by other EU countries, namely Germany and France, over beef to mention but a few. To be led by the corrupt and incompetent in Brussels may make being the 51st State of the USA seem not so bad after all - at least we speak the same language.
Nick, Germany (UK citizen)
Our legal systems differ on crucial points of individual liberties; we have no shared traditions or language. If we are to enter into a super state it should be one that consists of English-speaking peoples, wherever they are found.
The Franco-German alliance, which proposes to subjugate the rest of Europe, would be better referred to as the "Quatrieme Reich".
The more I hear of "save the pound" and "remember the war" the more I despair. The UK lags far behind Europe on many issues, environment, health, transport, and after the scenes from Euro 2000, I hope Europe will still want us once we manage to relinquish our xenophobia.
Countries that want faster integration into the EU should be allowed to do so without hindrance from those who want to go slower or adopt a wait-and-see approach. It is unfair on pro-integration nations, as any hold-ups might slow the momentum caused by unseen external factors. A strong EU is a must to counter the US economic and political juggernaut and set an example for Asia and Africa.
Ian Crompton, England
Britain has a stronger currency than most in Europe as well as the largest capital city, London, which is the financial centre of Europe. The country is a crucial part of the European community. However, as long as the Government listens to its people, Britain will never be just another state in a Federal Europe.
It's time to start some informed debate on the subject. The current polls are meaningless, because the only things most folk know are from negative comments in the likes of the Daily Mail. I am offended by those idiots that suggest my Englishness is dependent upon the bartering token in my pocket! As far as I'm concerned, the sooner we integrate more closely the better - nothing will take the British culture and temperament from us, despite what some Tory MPs try to tell us.
The biggest problem for Britain is the British. They will never surrender sovereignty to countries who (as they see it) they either rescued or defeated in the last war. They would rather integrate with the US than the EU. I suspect the country will find itself on the periphery of both.
The French seem not to learn from history. Napoleon tried to isolate Britain and the rest of Europe suffered, leading to his downfall. I love the French for their inconsistencies. I love living in France and am presently enjoying the benefits of the weak euro and strong pound. Slow down a bit Mr Chirac and let things evolve naturally.
David, Belgium
I would like to see Britain make more of an effort to join the Euro, but this typical French idea is ludicrous. I'm sorry, there's no two tiered systems; we're all in the Union together or forget the whole thing. What is being said? Full membership, partial membership and the executive membership. This is totally unsatisfactory.
I sincerely hope that the UK has missed the boat. Who would want to get involved with such a corrupt, authoritarian, sclerotic, socialist "organisation"? The currency is a joke, the anthem and flag are just plain silly and devoid of real meaning.
I think we should really take a step back to see what individual countries want out of Europe, and how it can work as a whole with the rest of the world.
As Brits we should be proud of our history and we should have pride in our nation. The EU should recognise and respect this, instead of pressing for a loss of our national values.
We can join NAFTA and stay as part of the EU. Linking the UK and USA will be our role in Europe. We do not have to be fully integrated, nor do we have to stay out completely.
Peter Ellis, UK
In ten years time Britain will be knocking on the European door, cap in hand, asking to join the Euro. By this time there will be another grand European project underway, and no doubt Britain will shy away from committing to that as well, only to join later. What is it with this country? Do we not realise that when we eventually join all the rules will have been shaped France and Germany's way?
There are two points I would like to make. First off, for the last two hundred years there has been a working model of political and economic integration in the form of the UK. Although this has worked well for decades the growing sense of nationalism, the need for a national identity can't be ignored. I don't believe that in an environment where we don't even share a common language, as in Europe, there is any future. The second point is that Canada and Mexico cope very well within NAFTA without having to change the Canadian dollar or peso for the US dollar. We can cope, and retain the pound, on our own.
Linzi, England
Great Britain hesitated to join the European Community for a long time but finally became a member in 1973. Sooner or later Great Britain will join the European Currency.
There is no real alternative to European integration, and nobody doubts that Great Britain is, and has always been, an integrated part of Europe.
The United Kingdom is EXACTLY the same model as a united Europe! Several countries, working together with each retaining its national identity, using one currency and one central government with local administration in the regions. It isn't complicated, we invented it!
While the politicians decide whether the European union is a good thing or a bad thing, Britain is getting left behind. Some things will change for the worse with a united Europe, but the same is true for all member states. Clearly, the benefits to be gained through free trade, and free movement within a united Europe will far outweigh the disadvantages.
Mike, UK
Britain is already on the sidelines in having not yet made a clear decision on the single currency. Given the Government's position on this, it would be arrogance of the highest order for the Prime Minister to insist our continental partners put the European Union on hold to help him avoid European issues at the next General Election
The advancement of democracy within the EU should not be prey to the national electoral considerations of a single party in a single country.
I don't think this is an issue. The other European countries have proved with such measures as the failing Euro and the mountainous wave of rules and regulations that they cannot effectively run a superstate based around very different societies and cultures. Britain MUST stay out of the European suicide pact if it is to avoid the kind of fate Napoleon and Hitler had in mind for us. It is looking more and more as though certain European leaders are on the verge of achieving by stealth and backdoor tactics that which previous leaders couldn't manage by brute force.
Dave Whyte, UK
We are already part of Europe by fact of our geographical position. We have been trading with the Continent for hundreds of years without any politically correct treaties. Why did we send thousands of soldiers to their deaths between 1940 and 1945 if all we are going to do is surrender sovereignty to Brussels? Make no mistake, that is where it is going.
The people of Europe are a wonderful diverse people and I have had the privilege of meeting many from various countries. The thing that most seem to want is their identity. It's only the governments that want to absolve responsibility for their countries, not the people.
Our society and economy are bound up with our continental neighbours. If we fail to fully integrate, we will become the ox-bow lake of Europe, impoverished and ignored by the rest of the world.
Murray, England
The present attitude in Continental Europe is the greatest development seen to those of us who experienced the tragedy of World War 2. No longer is the increased power of Germany viewed as a threat by most of Europe. This was part of the basis for both major wars of the last century. The former confrontational, entangling alliances that created these devastating wars will be replaced by friendship and peace and the long-suffering people of Europe will finally experience the tranquillity so long denied to them.
The sooner we get into Europe, the better. By working together as the United States of Europe, each part of which will retain its individuality, we can increase productivity, wealth and prosperity, to the greater benefit of us all. The "Little Englander" approach is no longer possible.
Britain must push forward, must integrate. The old and the right have had their time. It's now time to listen to the young, not the old. The only future lies at the heart of an integrated Europe. Anything less would surely lead to isolation.
Jose Fernandez, The Netherlands It doesn't look as though we are doing too bad without Europe. I for one don't want some politician outside my country making decisions where a local government should be making them. I also do not want to pay for the rest of Europe's problems. Now I think I know a little of what the Scottish and Welsh must have felt when we decided to rule their lands...
E.W., UK Britain only hears what USA say, now its the time to think positively and join the EU otherwise it will stay behind as soon as the EU start growing
How dare we sit on the fence and hold back those who want to forge ahead. Yes we are now second rate Europeans and that's where we deserve to be.
Terry, Cornwall UK
Our laws are overruled, criminals set free, our taxes used to give unelected 'ministers' and their cronies vast unaudited expenses¿ And now they want us to transfer to a currency that has lost 23% of its value over the past 18 months?
No thank you.
I think some of the Scandinavian countries had the right idea when their citizens said "NO" to being an EC state.
I'm British and happy being so.
A.Weirbouzer, United kingdom
Britain has one of 2 choices: to become the 51st state of the USA or to become an integral part of Europe.
The do-nothing, default option, will leave the country as a weakened, isolated entity.
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