Interfaith dialogue

Dr Zaki Badawi, Chairman of the Council of Mosques and Imams, Colin Slee, Dean of Southwark and Rabbi Albert Friedlander answered your questions on religion.

Transcript

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As part of a special BBC series on Islam and the West we will be discussing how religious faiths interact with each other and how tolerance can be promoted.

Throughout history differences between religious faiths have ignited wars all over the world.

Since the terrorist attacks on the US on 11 September, Islam and the West have increasingly viewed one another with mistrust and suspicion, and leaders of all faiths have called for greater tolerance and mutual understanding.

To what extent do religions differ from each other and are those difference irreconcilable? What should religious leaders do to promote mutual respect and tolerance between religions?

The recording of the programme will be broadcast on BBC World Service radio on Sunday 26 October at 1300 GMT.

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Transcript

Newshost:
Hello and welcome to this BBC News interactive forum. I'm Robert Piggot. Today we'll be discussing interfaith relations between Christianity, Islam and Judaism as a part of our special series that brings together Muslims and non-Muslims from all walks of life to discuss the relationship between Islam and the West.

After the events of September 11th and the American-led invasion of Iraq, the Islamic world and the West came to view each other with suspicion. Moderate voices in Christianity, Judaism, Islam and other world faiths seemed to have become muted, those who came to represent religious authenticity have been those who by and large reject dialogue and pluralism and speak instead of authority, exclusivity and the uncompromising fundamentals of faith.

Now is religion a cause of conflict or could it be a path of reconciliation? To discuss these issues I'm joined by Colin Slee, Anglican Dean of Southwark, Rabbi Albert Friedlander and Dr Zaki Badawi, chairman of the Imams and Mosques Council here in Britain.

We've received hundreds of e-mails from all over the world, so we'll start first with one issue raised by Anthony in the United States. Rabbi Friedlander can I put this question to you - it's possibly the most fundamental one between your three faiths, do you worship the same god?

Rabbi Albert Friedlander:
Of course we do. A few weeks ago I was in Bonn in the discussion with other religions asking the same question. I think we came up first with a recognition that divine revelation reaches out to all of humanity, we cannot claim exclusivity for ourselves, therefore we do recognise that Islam, Christianity, other faiths have a true revelation. Recognising this in no way diminishes our awareness of our own faith as the fundamental path on which we trod. Which I think can lead later on to, is evangelism of any sort necessary, do we have to missionarise others. We can, we do worship the same god in different ways, that revelation is one thing, our interpretation of it in our own worship is something where we recognise the other pathways as entirely legitimate.

Newshost:
Zaki Badawi, the question comes also from Natashja de Wolfe, Canada: Is it true that the Judeo-Christian and Islamic God are one and the same?

Dr Zaki Badawi:
Well you know I just quote the Koran itself. It talks about the people of the book and says our god and your god is one. That is the declaration of the Koran itself. So we have here a declaration that is committing us, as Muslims, to accept the god of the Christians, the god of the Jews, as our god because it is our god as well.

Of course we accept the fact that they do have acts or say worship their gods in a different way. And the Koran says that god has given the same religion, the same faith to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus, to Mohammed but allowed him to have certain sharia or certain rules of conduct, particularly with regard to worship. They're different but they worship the same god in their different ways.

Newshost:
Colin Slee, I've been in the United States and heard Christian pastors telling congregations of thousands that Christians don't worship the same god - that it's a different god. That Islam is, to quote them, "a religion of violence and disorder". Now how can that square with the Christian mainstream - does it at all?

Colin Slee:
The Christian mainstream believes that God is the creator of all things and that also says that God is so enormous that none of us has a complete comprehension of the nature of God. God is both unknowable and beyond all things and imminent and immediate to us and therefore known in our own personal and individual lives.

Therefore I think it is very hard for any Christian to say that we are not worshipping the same God. I believe we are all worshipping the same God but God is so enormous that none of us can wholly know God, none of us can have a complete comprehension of the nature of God and we are all approaching the nature of God from slightly different angles. Those who say that we don't and who therefore damn others, are I believe assuming something of the nature of God's own ability to judge between people and thereby are in some ways acting quite blasphemously.

Newshost:
It's an interesting point, Rabbi Friedlander.

Rabbi Albert Friedlander:
To throw in a quick Biblical quote that we all share, in the book of Micah - and the end of days it will come to pass that all nations will come up to the mountain of the Lord, each one with his own faith and we walk together in that way so that there is an immediate recognition that others must be recognised as well.

Colin Slee:
Similarly in John's Gospel Jesus says: And there are other sheep who are not of this fold.

Newshost:
It's interesting you've raised the issue Rabbi Friedlander of evangelism, isn't it true, as Eddie Dee of Scotland has pointed out also Nitesh S has raises a similar question from India that there is almost a duty on Christians to evangelize and that can throw them in conflict with Judaism and Islam particularly at the current time, Colin.

Colin Slee:
I think there is a duty to evangelize but I believe there is a duty to evangelize which is about the realisation of our full humanity. And part of our full humanity is the recognition of the creator and of the divine who is present in each of the divine's creatures. And therefore I don't particularly see that there is an obligation to evangelism that lies with Christians and not with Muslims or with Jews.

I'm sure that if I'd been born in Israel, I would be of the Jewish faith and if I was born in some other countries I'd be a Muslim. It is in some senses an accident of my birth that I'm a Christian. But therefore because of what I learnt in my Christian upbringing my understanding of the revelation of the nature of God is through the Christian faith.

Newshost:
Dr Zaki Badawi, it's a question raised as well by Pascal Jacquemain, of France: How can someone who tries to proselytize a Muslim show true respect to Islam?

Is that an issue in Islam that there is this Christian habit or tradition of evangelism?

Dr Zaki Badawi:
Well I think we do feel that. After all I think Christianity is the only religion that has organised missionaries and worked with the target. We don't have it in Islam. We - if we actually tried to persuade others it is through proclamation of our religion to proclaim our faith. But I think with Christianity this is not the case, it has been organised - it has been organised and they go with a strategy and so on and this is threatening to us. We feel threatened by it and particularly when the evangelization is accompanied with say either political or economic pressure.

You know the story of the Rice Christians in Indonesia? Rice Christians, they're the people who used to be induced - the Muslims were induced to go to the church every Sunday and they were told if you go there we'll give you a sack of rice. So they go every Sunday until they got used to the idea of going to the church and became Christians. And we considered this is as not really religious.

We're quite happy for the Christians to come and proclaim their religion in front of us. We don't mind that at all, and we think that they're right and we can debate and argue and this happened in our history. But to try to use other means, underhand means, either by saying, look I'll give you a job if you become a Christian. Or if you're not a Christian you won't be promoted in the political structure of a country that is under our control. This is something we consider to be objectionable.

Newshost:
So is there a difference between proclamation and evangelism?

Rabbi Albert Friedlander:
To my mind I know in the Koran there are passages which acknowledge Judaism as a true faith and Christianity as well. When we are confronted with missionerising from Christianity or from Islam, in effect, what worries us mainly is the misquoting of Hebrew scriptures, is the attempt to push us out of our heritage in some way.

Recognition of true missionerising would be that we view Christians or Muslims by the way they live. If a Christian wants to proclaim his religion as the best, by the way he lives and acts is the best work of mission. We recognise and respect and honour that person, see that there is a true Christian and that gives us even greater respect for that faith and the same in Islam.

But the missionerising itself to us does present problems which are part, I think, of modern society because so very often the religions are now pushed into a political framework and this in some ways is almost unbefitting to religion itself.

Newshost:
I'd like to deal now with something that's become a bit of preoccupation since September 11th 2001 and chiefly perhaps since the last Gulf War, the war in Iraq. Many of our e-mail correspondents have raised this issue, Mike in the UK asks: Isn't religion supposed to be about peace and concord?

So Zaki Bedawi, why does it cause so many conflicts?

Dr Zaki Badawi:
I don't think religion itself is causing the conflict at all. I think the conflict begins for base and rather contemptible reasons and they try to honour it by saying it really is religious, we're fighting for God, not fighting for the fact that we want to grab the oil or to control people - no, no, no, it's God's war. And this also absolves the aggressors of their aggression because they will say, it's not me, guv, it's him up there.

Newshost:
It's an alibi.

Dr Zaki Badawi:
It's an alibi. So it can be used as an alibi. It can be used as a cover up. It can be used also to give dignity to something which is undignified.

Newshost:
Except that we've had fairly overt Muslim legitimisation haven't we, for a lot of the violence that's taken place in the Middle East.

Dr Zaki Badawi:
Well the Middle East violence - what are you referring to in particular?

Newshost:
Well I'm thinking of al-Qaeda.

Dr Zaki Badawi:
Al-Qaeda were created, as you may recall, al-Qaeda were created by the Americans and their allies in the Middle East. They were created to fight the Soviet Union but they turned on their creators and that is the normal thing, unfortunately, in history.

Newshost:
However they were created they still use Islam as a recruitment point.

Dr Zaki Badawi:
I'm not saying otherwise. But you see it was created and Islam was given that particular interpretation - which is a wrong interpretation - and let me tell you that I objected to it in '85 when it was at the height of the war against the Soviets because I thought it was a misuse of religion. I said this is very dangerous and it will later on show that it is actually misinterpreting Islam.

So the use of religion for anything at all of this nature is wrong. But let me say another thing, that religion is normally used as a mobilising force, particularly in national independence movements, liberation movements - they use religion as a mobilising force. But the essential thing is to get freedom, political freedom. The Algerian war is an example and other wars of independence using religion - using Hinduism at one time for India and using Buddhism elsewhere, using Christianity in the Southern Sudan for instance - it was their rallying point their Christianity.

So religion can be used but the essential issue was not religious. That really it was people seeking independence, seeking recognition for themselves and therefore they were saying, we are as a group, as a religious group, being persecuted or being ill treated, let's unite around it.

Newshost:
That's interesting. Colin Slee, is it not true that, on a less overt basis, people like George Bush and people in United States - political entities - have used Christianity in a way to carry the war to the Middle East?

Colin Slee:
I think religious faith is quite often used quite naively as a justification. People often tell funny stories about the ladies of the village arguing over who's going to do the flower arrangements on which particular window ledge of their village church. And I often say to people in response to that that the village ladies argue over the flower arrangements because they are hugely important - because religion matters and it is an expression of the part of our human nature that is most difficult to express. And I believe that that's one of the reasons that religion is frequently, in history and indeed in the present day, involved in human conflict.

It is actually because religious faith - whether it's Islamic or Jewish or Christian - is enormously important to the very essential nature of our human esse - of our entire being - that it is so closely related to the very fiercest of our passions and ambitions. And therefore it becomes very closely related to political movements. There are countries - Saudi Arabia is perhaps an example - where to be a Christian is very, very nearly impossible and that is to do with the way that politics and religion have an interface where most people find the distinction impossible to make.

Newshost:
That's interesting. We had a question from Sam in the United Arab Emirates who says that a lot of Christian Arabs regard the West with the suspicion as their Muslim neighbours.

Dr Zaki Badawi:
This confirms what I said. The whole issue is that - the crusaders when they came to the Middle East, they were killing Christians, Jews and Muslims. The Christian Arabs regarded the onslaught - in the name of fundamentalist Christianity, as in the United States - is not really meant as an attack on Islam per se but an attack on the whole East - the Third World - grabbing the main resources of these countries and controlling their destiny.

Newshost:
Mejar, Australia raises this question: Shouldn't religious leaders Rabbi be exerting more pressure on governments to end wars and to make peace?

Have you been disappointed in the way that religious leaders have spoken out against the conflict, particularly in the Middle East?

Rabbi Albert Friedlander:
I think I've been disappointed both by religious leaders and by the congregations who, on the whole, say talk about religion, don't talk about politics. And one has to confront the fact that religion has to enter this area. During the time of the Reformation in Europe, you had much more conflicts between religions establishing themselves. Today, when the boundaries have almost fallen, it's not so much states as religions confronting themselves more clearly whether in the Balkans or in other areas.

I think certainly religion today tries to speak out very fully and very firmly against war. The world conference of religions for peace has always been active in trying to proclaim peace itself. But on the whole religion is seen to be the property of national communities who want to defend themselves.

Colin Slee:
I think Albert is saying something really important there. I personally try never to refer to the Old Testament but always to refer to the Hebrew Scriptures. Because if I talk about the Hebrew Scriptures I'm making a statement about my respect for the Hebrew Scriptures as in what they what they were originally meant to be.

The Hebrew Scriptures are full of prophets. The prophets are amazingly astute political observers. Somewhere during the course of the last century, because we're in a new one, the idea crept in that there should be some sort of Chinese wall between religious faith and political engagement and I constantly spend my time saying to my congregation - this wall does not exist. If you really follow the faith then it implies political engagement and that is very important for all faiths.

Rabbi Albert Friedlander:
I think the religious leaders - they do try, I mean take the Alexandria Declaration, which was constructed by the presenter of Islam, Christianity and Judaism about the Middle East and the most hotly disputed issue in the name of religion. And they issued the declaration which is really the one - still the one surviving contact between the three faiths in the area.

Newshost:
Perhaps it's a sign of how little it's about religion that that hasn't been more immediately successful - that declaration.

Rabbi Albert Friedlander:
Well it's not - you see the difficulty is it's never given publicity, which is really amazing, although the effort that we took to try to bring it and let me say to this George Carey, the last Archbishop was an instrumental man who did very well and he was the one who got through with it. And let me say also that I have too to praise Tony Blair because he really encouraged that as well. In Egypt we got the director of al-Azhar that is the presenter of Sunni Islam to come in and we got the leader of Muslims and Christians in Palestine to come over with the Chief Rabbi - not the Ashkenazi but the Society Chief Rabbi and they had the [indistinct word] declaration, which is a very important one.

Newshost:
Colin interestingly mentioned the idea of a Chinese wall between religion and politics and that he has made great efforts to break that down, we know, in one area which is someone's sexuality, which has been raised by some of our e-mailers too. They are concerned, I think it's fair to say, by the attitude of all three religions about their obsession with our sex lives. And Kay, here in the United Kingdom, makes that point, Steve Hill, in the United Kingdom, says: I'm a gay man, neither Christianity nor Islam tolerates me. And that's quite an interesting question, isn't it, why Zaki Badawi does Islam not tolerate gay people when they are part of the real world?

Dr Zaki Badawi:
We don't not tolerate anybody - a person can live or lead his life the way that he or she would choose. The only thing that we do not - is that there are certain things that we don't actually proclaim them and go out and say look I am what I am or whatever. I mean there are certain social taboos and there is no question, whether in Islam or of any other society. And if people challenge these taboos well they unfortunately put upon themselves certain disapproval. As far as Islam is concerned we've always had in our society homosexuals and I tell you there was one poet at the time of Harun ar-Rashid, of the Arabian Nights fame, who was a known homosexual, not only that he wrote poetry about that and it was well known, people learnt it as children, learnt at school. So there is nothing at all in this respect, the only thing that we - for instance, if somebody applies to me for a job I don't say well look are you or are you not? We don't have that at all, it's not a question, it's outside our frame of reference altogether. But the act itself is regarded in our faith as not acceptable and we cannot really compromise on that.

Newshost:
That's why you don't ask the question isn't it? Isn't there a degree of hypocrisy, at least a perception of hypocrisy, on the part of the outside world, of your religion because you don't ask that question, because you know it happens and yet you won't tolerate active homosexuality?

Dr Zaki Badawi:
Well I consider this to be irrelevant. It's like saying if somebody applies to me by telephone for a job I say well look are you coloured or are you white? Are you Chinese or whatever? I don't ask this question, it's irrelevant, that's the whole point.

Newshost:
Isn't that because in the end you would employ them all? Rabbi you were going to say something.

Rabbi Albert Friedlander:
I was the head and still the Dean of the Leo Baeck College and our entrance examinations we have totally eliminated any questions on sexual preference, the questions deal more with love of God, love of humanity, love of study, of learning and the students whom we have accepted to have been ordained and they're now - of course we do ordain women but I have to say that over the years, would almost say arguably the greatest of our rabbis in the London area are homosexual and lesbian rabbis and we have total acceptance of this and we are proud and happy with that.

Newshost:
It does raise this other question though, which is whose law should we obey? As it's been put to us by A. Rana, here in London in the UK. Colin Slee whose laws should we be obeying - secular laws about homosexuality or God's laws about homosexuality.

Colin Slee:
Well I actually think that's a false assumption. I think the question prior to that is very simple, it is that that our corporately held scriptures - the first five books of the Christian Bible - are about nomadic tribes in a desert situation. And there is a very clear strong anthropological and sociological explanation for why homosexual activity amongst nomadic tribes would be regarded as taboo. And it is very simply to do with procreation, it is to do with the security of the tribe, it's to do with having enough men to fight and enough women to bear children. And the explanations are all very clearly there and they're very historical.

What has of course happened, particularly in the developing world, and there is another division between the developing world and the developed world, what's happened in the developed world is that those taboos are in many respects no longer as strong or as pertinent as they were. I believe that the Christian churches, who have been very obviously and I suppose me in particular this summer, engaged in a very fierce debate about this, have to discern all sorts of issues and see the distinction between them, there are the issues of justice in terms of how we treat the people properly. There are for Christians the issues about whether we are called to what one might described as blind obedience to the law or indeed to what I would regard as the more perceptive obedience that is illustrated by the conduct of Jesus in the gospels. And in the gospels Jesus constantly says and most particularly once again in John: I no longer call you slaves, I call you friends. And if we're called to be friends then we're called to know what the master wants and that's the whole thrust of that particular passage. And in knowing the will of God then we begin to treat people with an even greater respect and we are, as it were, released from blind obedience to the law as a code because that's fixed at a point in time and we now live in a different time.

Newshost:
Interesting, while you've been talking Colin Slee a caller from Liverpool here in the United Kingdom has rung to say or has e-mailed us to ask if you're talking about all faiths having equally valid ways of knowing God and receiving his forgiveness and so on, didn't Christ say he was the only way, isn't that a fundamental issue here between the faiths?

Colin Slee:
Christ in one particular passage says: I am the way, the truth and the life. Once again one needs to look at the passage very carefully. In fact the two key words are "I am" and when Mosses goes to the burning bush and asks for the name of God he is told: I am who I am or I was who I was. The point about the passage is I am life itself, I am being. There are seven sayings in John's gospel, each beginning with I am - I am the bread, I am the good shepherd, I am the door - and we need to see the I am the only way as being part of that corpus of seven sayings which are about the entire nature and all the facets of God. So I don't believe that God is - that Jesus is saying something in the New Testament that is quite as exclusive as it appears if you simply take that text by itself.

Newshost:
Talking of exclusivity, another issue raised by our e-mailers is that of intermarriage and we've had, while we've been on the air, a caller or rather an e-mailer from Sao Paulo in Brazil who asks: Can a Muslim woman marry a Jewish or Christian man or a Muslim man marry a Jewish or Christian woman? We've had also e-mails from Sandra Putri of Indonesia and Olga from Russia. Olga's story is a very personal one, saying she's fallen in love as a Christian with a Muslim man. But there is a real taboo here as well, isn't there Rabbi, and it's something that's particularly pertinent to the Jewish faith.

Rabbi Albert Friedlander:
Not just that but I think Zaki will also be able to give you insights in terms of Islamic community but the fact is despite Colin the monopoly that Christianity has tended to exercise upon law in Great Britain has meant that Jews were put into a category, it's the anti-disestablishmentarianism problem again that Jews or rabbis may only officiate at weddings of members of their synagogue, Christians cannot be members of their synagogue. And at the same time intermarriage is a very frequent occurrence in not only Great Britain but in America it's almost 50 per cent, in the Jewish community and so we've had to confront this in a variety of ways.

To start with certainly liberal and reform, if not yet orthodoxy, have come to the recognition that alliances that are constructed with Jews and non-Jews have to be recognised as genuine attempts to create a partnership that therefore Jews should not be excluded from the Jewish community for that reason, that non-Jewish partners should be welcomed into the Jewish community even if they cannot officially become members of the congregation. That in the liberal particularly but also in reform and other areas we have come to establish rituals in which at least there can be a kind of a blessing, a recognition of the couple which does not bring them under the law of the synagogue, as it were, but much more recognition of human dignity and the laws of humanity in which we have to acknowledge that they can and should be true to each other and to their own faith.

Newshost:
Doesn't the idea of any barrier, Zaki Badawi, between marriage between faiths, doesn't that send a terrible signal about interfaith relations to the outside world, to the secular world?

Dr Zaki Badawi:
Not really, not at all. I think that you have political parties, I mean I don't think of a Conservative and Liberal or Conservative and Labour would get along very well, I mean even in a family, I don't think so, they would quarrel all the time. I tell you one thing in Islam we do allow men, Muslim men, to marry Jews and Christians because the Koran itself speaks to Jews and the Christians and said: You are unworthy unless you follow the teachings of your faith. So that's very clear. And it is our law if a man, Muslim man, marries a Christian woman or a Jewish woman he is obliged to take her to the church or the synagogue to perform her own religious duties. But we do not allow our women to marry outside our community. And the reason for that is the whole problem that women are the custodian of our culture and our faith and we try to get other people's women to help with us but not otherwise.

Newshost:
How much [speaking over] says it with people who aren't Muslims or who are completely secular but .

Dr Zaki Badawi:
It's very difficult.

Newshost:
It sounds like something about women as well .

Dr Zaki Badawi:
Now just a minute, they are totally secular. The whole point is that, as you know, if you get somebody in the hospital here and they ask them: What are you? If he does not actually identify himself with Islam or Judaism he calls him C of E, straightaway. I mean the whole point is you can be culturally a Christian. We don't actually ask the woman do you believe in God or do you believe in Christianity, she is taken as Christian or Jewish or whatever. Now the important thing here is that from my point of view, personally, I conduct marriages and I discourage mixed marriages at all, I discourage completely. Not that they say that you do not love a girl who happens to be Jewish or a boy who happens to be a Christian. I say look before you embark on living together come to an agreement about the religion that you both should hold, so one of them had to convert because the reason is that marriage for many is not just love and bread and water, it's more - it has a lot of tension in it and if there is tension in the marriage unfortunately the religious issue emerges then and they say well look really we are having difficulties because he is a Muslim and I'm Jewish or he is a Christian and I'm Muslim. So I prefer all the time, I advise them, they come to me and say the man is in love with a girl or the girl is in love with a man of a different religion, you say look you wait and think and try to see if the other party can come to an agreement, particularly they have this more when the children are born because the children are torn between the two parents. And I feel that as a result of this - because for us religion's very important, it's very crucial.

Newshost:
Even when it's important though, Colin, are you using that as a bit of an admission of defeat, saying one party must convert?

Colin Slee:
Yes I think it probably is. Except to say I remember in one of my earlier jobs when I was a chaplain in Cambridge talking to one of the dons who had been brought up as a Jewish girl, she'd married a non-Jewish man and from the day of her marriage had been ostracised. And the pain and the grief that that creates is enormous. I think that what we're actually discussing is funnily enough not so far from the discussion about gay issues and it really comes down to relationships being faithful and stable and lifelong, to the degree of commitment. And I agree with Zaki that when one encounters difficulties, and most married people do encounter difficulties at some point, religion can so easily become the excuse to break it up. And that's itself quite difficult.

Newshost:
I think that idea of religion as an excuse for division, an excuse for anything you want it to be has come through our discussion, either the alibi for war and so on. Often what's happening here is the people are quoting passages from scripture, from the Hebrew text or the Bible or the Koran to back up their position and we've been asked this interesting question by John Ryan from the United States: Isn't it time for religions to come together, forego any scriptural quotations, to find common ground just to suspend that idea of having to be based in scriptures so entirely? I feel I read that in some things you said about the homosexuality issue Colin Slee.

Colin Slee:
Well I don't believe that it's time to suspend scripture because in fact I would regard the scripture as fundamental to all of our faiths.

Newshost:
. forego quotations from it.

Colin Slee:
Right, well I would agree that it is very good for people to forego using quotations as weapons because quotations are nearly always, by definition, out of context and they're so easily abused and misunderstood. What I constantly argue for, and I have over the issue of homosexuality during the course of this summer, is for the intelligent use of scripture. And if we really seek to penetrate the meaning and to understand the original languages and to see the context and the purposes of the different passages - some of which are completely contradictory of one another - we need to admit that and then we need to use scripture as creatively as we can in our own time.

Newshost:
Okay, I'm afraid we haven't got time for anymore, I do apologise Rabbi Friedlander, I know you wanted to come in on that.

Rabbi Albert Friedlander:
I think a quick line is that secular religion in America has tried to almost displace religions that we all need our roots and these roots are in our holy scriptures. The misuse of scriptures is something entirely different but we need our roots.

Dr Zaki Badawi:
We cannot do without our scriptures, our scriptures are basic. What is really required is to look at the scripture in totality and not to allow people to take things out of context.

Newshost:
Zaki Badawi, the chairman of the Council of Imams and Mosques, thank you very much for joining us. Colin Slee, the Anglican Dean of Southwark and Rabbi Albert Friedlander. Thank you for joining us for this interactive forum and thank you for your e-mails, I'm sorry if we didn't get them all in but do try e-mailing us again. Until next time, from me Robert Piggott goodbye.