|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
You are in: Talking Point | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
Saturday, 23 November, 2002, 11:15 GMT
Who is to blame for the firefighters' strike?
An eight-day strike by UK firefighters has begun as union leaders blame the government for wrecking a last-minute pay deal.
This is a second page of your comments on the strike.
Michelle, Leeds, England Michelle, Leeds, what is a decent living wage? Is it the minimum wage, average wage, enough to buy a 3 bedroom house (dependant on the area)?
Firemen know the wage structure when they join, to demand a 40% increase without any warning when the country is suffering from an economic downturn is rather unreasonable. A government which wasted £750 million on the millennium dome who now refuses to pay people who risk their lives several times a day an honest wage should be held responsible for every fire related casualty in this strike.
I haven't seen any suggestions as to what effective action can be taken instead of striking. Negotiations I hear someone say, what happens when all that fails?
It is nice to read that the public are supporting the servicemen and women during this time, but I was very upset to read a comment from someone saying that soldiers get paid £18000 and get their food and accommodation catered for and that most of them don't have mortgages. As the wife of a serving soldier who is involved in these strikes, I would like to confirm that soldiers do not get their living costs paid for, they are deducted from their wage packet at the end of each month. We pay rent on the houses we live in, and the wage is not good enough for most service personnel to be able to afford a mortgage.
I see no reason why the firefighters should not attend all fires, whilst on strike to ensure no loss of life, and once the area is safe of danger to people, let the army put the fire out. Thus ensuring minimum deaths, but effective striking.
4days on 4days off this means that firemen work 6months a year 24,000 means ?500 a week ?1000 a fortnight ?2000 a month, take one service say submarines they in my opinion do an extremely dangerous job but their pay is far less and they get 5 weeks paid leave a year and no pension unless they serve the full 22 year term
In addition to the risk we are all under from reduced firefighting coverage, it will be the last straw if every single one of the tubes and tube stations are not back in full action precisely at 6pm tonight. There will be no further excuse.
We need our appliances ready and tested for immediate deployment. This would be impossible to do when we have no idea what has been happening to the gear when the army has been using it. Also are they going to bring them back to stations when we are working normally? This would all go away if Mr Blair and Mr Prescott recovered from their selective amnesia and give firefighters the same percentage rise in pay as they awarded themselves!
You are asking the nation the wrong question! Of course people will not support the strike. Or a 40% pay rise. But why not ask them if they deserve the pay they are asking for. It's all in the way you phrase the question.
The firefighters' strike is not just about pay, one of the modernisation proposals by the government includes reducing the number of fire engines crewed at night (so they can save money), but what we firefighters say and know is that you the public are more at risk at night, as unfortunately the last two nights have proved with the seven deaths occurring at night. Please ask John Prescott about this modernisation proposal.
I support the firemen 100%. £30k a year is not too much to ask. They do a wonderful job which is both dangerous and at times horrific. Tony Blair hasn't got a clue.
I do enjoy the job, and if I was single I'd be happy with the money, but my wife and three kids can't eat job satisfaction, nor will it pay the mortgage. I do realise that other public sector workers are under-paid, but I don't see why that means I should put up with poor wages. Nurses and paramedics deserve huge wage rises.
It is quite true that 38 people apply for every vacancy, but we set no restrictions on applicants - you should come and see some of the people who come for physical testing. The FBU have been at the forefront of change in the British fire service, we will always oppose mindless cash saving cuts like reducing fire cover at night, as Mr Bain wants. Mr Bain also said that the shifts are not family friendly, then went on to say that we should make our wages up by working overtime and performing retained duties - how family friendly is that?
The strike hasn't affected me.
But it has affected 3 people who lost their lives last night thanks to firefighters sitting on their backsides and not giving a damn.
Thank God the retained firefighters believe that the lives of members of the public are more important.
Laura, Redditch, England, UK
I live close to a fire station, and since the talk of strikes began, I have been keeping note of how often the appliances are called out. Last week there were a total of three calls, and the appliances were out for a total of 5.5 hours! 5.5 hours of work in 168 hours seems a very cushy number to me. Fire these troublemakers and get new blood and new conditions into the fire service.
Terri England.: She states that after watching a fire Station for a week, she noticed that in that time they only worked for 5.5 hours. If that is the case who keeps up the maintenance of the equipment, keeps up the high slandered of training, services and maintains the street hydrants. As you said they have a cushy job. What about you? Nothing better to do but watch a fire station all day, every day for a week.
Does anybody know how the 1977 dispute was resolved? At the very least, this would be interesting, but more usefully might give some indication of what outcome to expect.
One group who seem to have been forgotten in all this? Having just finished 15 hours working with the armed forces (as a Police escort) I'd just like to say that they have been dropped in the deep end big time. The group I was with had just come back from Afghanistan. They got one day back with their families, three days training and then posted to the other side of the country for the foreseeable future. Working with archaic kit. No personal protection clothing, just normal camouflage kit. It was torrential rain last night but they couldn't wear their waterproofs as they would melt. Their only entertainment is one small telly - but no one wanted to watch it much as it was constant in depth fire strike analysis - where everyone just seemed to be criticising the job they were doing. Its a thankless task - they cant win either way. But they were 100% professional, 100% committed and gave it 100% all the time. Shame that during and after this is over they won't get the recognition they deserve.
Peter Williams, United Kingdom
Firemen conveniently forget to mention, that any increase in Salary, will have to be matched by the same rise in pension contributions by their employers. Pensions that are index linked, and are recognised as one of the best schemes around. They also have the ability to retire at 55 years old. As a person who works in the private sector, it seems to me that a "Fireman's lot is quite a happy one" With these already generous benefits, it's no wonder that there are 40 applicants for one place in the service!!!
Gary, UK
I have every sympathy with the firefighters and think they should be paid more. But hundreds and thousands of Londoners have had their journey to work disrupted, with little or no warning, because some of our friends at London Underground feel justified in not turning up to work because they see this as a safety issue. After the tube drivers' unjustified strikes over the summer, I somehow have my doubts over their motives for not turning up for work today, and again making the lives of thousands of commuters (and bus drivers) an absolute misery.
I have respect for the soldiers doing their best to take the role of fire fighters during this strike. However, it really annoys me when soldiers are saying they only earn £18,000 or so and that Fire Fighters should be happy with that! The Armed Forces get their food and accommodation catered for! Many Service men/women don't have mortgages. Please, think about the facts before knocking Firefighters. They do a superb job, and deserve to be rewarded for it!
Rachel, UK
I would pay an extra £1 on my council tax per week to give these people what they are asking for, rather than pay for these fat cats.
My husband has just qualified as a firefighter having completed 4 years of training. It is unbelievable that John Prescott is prepared to hand over the Red Fire Engines to Troops who have had little or no experience in fire fighting. That to me is like giving a stick to child and asking them to walk through a mine field. Fire Fighters are highly trained. Is John Prescott prepared to deal with the relatives of soldiers who could be injured by not using the equipment properly?
David, UK
I fully support the firefighters strike action. My father is a firefighter of over 25 years who earns £21K a year. It occurs to me that many dissenters earn less than this figure and resent anyone earning more than them. To all the people who are against the firefighters pay claim: these professionals could be saving your life in the future, are they worth £30K now? Think about it.
There are so many special cases - why do the fireman think they merit such special treatment? What other group of workers has had an overtime ban for 25 years!!! And if they won who could stop the flood of others pleading for 40%? The end result will be bitterness and compromise and - like it or not - the reorganisation of the Fire Brigade.
You couldn't pay me enough to walk into a burning building to save the lives of complete strangers. Pay these brave selfless human beings what they deserve.
I think the firefighters do deserve more pay, and parity with police officers would seem reasonable. However, in return for this they should accept that as providers of an essential service they cannot be permitted to go on strike. This is already the case for the police, with whom the FBU has made numerous other comparisons. And the military personnel, most of whom earn less than a firefighter at current pay levels, would be hauled before a court martial before their feet touched the ground if they went on strike!
Neil Auty, England I am a nurse, and no, I am not going to go into a tirade that I should be paid more than a firefighter. I am fully aware of what I earn, I am fully aware of what I do to earn that, Come on all of you in the public sector. Stop vilifying the Fire fighters. they deserve an extra £2.00 an hour (yes that really is what a 40% pay rise would mean to them).Get behind them, show the government that the public sector are fed up with being paid a slave wage.
In response to all the critics, we are aware, when we enter our respective professions, what we are likely to earn. That neither makes it right or fair. We do the jobs we do because we care. But we can all be pushed only so far. Remember , nurses, paramedics, police etc... get paid extra for nights, weekends, late duties etc... Firefighters do not, Police get travel and housing allowances, firefighters do not. I could go on...They need the support of the public, more importantly, they need the media to stop making them public enemy No.1
I keep hearing people say that if the firefighters aren't happy with their pay they shouldn't work as firefighters. But that is exactly what has happened - they feel they're getting a raw deal, so they simply won't do the job. Fair play.
Karen, Wales
The firemen and firewomen accepted their respective salaries when they started their employment. To put lives at risk because they are greedy is wrong. I think that there should be new legislation introduced ASAP to prevent the Fire Brigade taking industrial action again. What's next? Can the Police go on strike?
I have been listening to the Fire Strike with some interest and totally agree with Goverment Policy on this. Not only do the Firefighters deserve more money, the nurses, Police Officers, Council Workers, Doctors, Teachers, etc they all deserve more.
Rather than fight against the people who blindly think the money will come out of thin air give them the opportunity of paying more Tax, put the ball in the Public court and see if they are willing to pay more taxes for the services they want.
Firefighters are wrong in striking. They are putting lives at risk. What would they do if their house happened to be on fire?
I feel sorry for the firefighters. They have spent far too much time navel gazing while not out on a shout, and have allowed themselves to be manipulated by a politically motivated leadership whose aim is not pay and conditions, but to bring down the government. They will not succeed, and we will all be the losers.
Gary, UK
The one thing that worries me most about this strike isn't the number of people that are going to die from accidents to which the fire service could have assisted, but the fact that the fire service will be wrongfully blamed for the deaths. How many of the people that die during this time will have died even if the fire service wasn't on strike. Hold out for the 40% - you deserve it. If it means putting more on income tax to pay for services, then put it on. I'd sooner be happy in the knowledge that firefighters, nurses, ambulance personnel, teachers and council workers are actually getting the pay increase they so rightly deserve.
Keith Nisbet, UK
I have just returned from an operational tour of the Balkans during which time my daughter was born. Since returning I have seen her for one week because of OP Fresco training. Do the firemen have to put up with things like this? No! So how can they justify their pay claim when I only receive £18,000 a year to not only have my life placed in danger but face the possibility of never seeing my daughter again.
My wife is a ward sister currently in an A&E dept of a local hospital. Yesterday she fought and lost the fight to keep a heart attack victim alive. She brings home work which puts on average 10 hours on to her working week. All this for a salary of £24k. She has 24 hour responsibility for her ward and receives numerous calls at home from colleagues for advice. The firefighters do deserve a pay rise but they are just being greedy when asking for 40%.
Kevin McGowan, Wales
Other PhD students and I were not allowed to work late hours in the university during the firefighters' strike because of safety concerns in case there is a fire incident. Whereas I have a laptop and can go home and work there, many other students don't. Most of us are under time pressure and have numerous deadlines coming up. The firefighters' strike prevents us from doing the overtime work we want to do, and for which, mind it, we are paid less than half the current firefighters' salary.
We have been FORCED into this position by the government, we have no choice. If we give in and return to work on the conditions of the Bain Review we would get an initial 1.75% pay rise, longer working hours, appalling working conditions, the retained fire service would be decimated, the control operators would go - the list is massive. What you'd get is very cheap and nasty fire cover. The devil certainly is in the detail when it comes to the Bain Review. It is not what it seems. 11.3% is a mirage and every firefighter knows that.
I have been a paramedic for 11 years and my salary is £18,700. I would jump at the chance of an 11% pay rise as would just about every one else in the NHS. We attend all the unpleasant incidents you do and thousands more besides. I can't believe that they really think they can win a 40% rise through industrial action that will result in people being killed.
The purpose of a strike is to show the public what life is like without the striking party's services. In light of the fact that people are complaining about the slow green goddesses, and the loss of life last night, it just goes to show that life certainly is better when a brilliant fire service is on standby to save lives and property. It just amazes me that the government (sitting in very nice cosy houses without fire hazards) can't see that they are robbing the public of a valuable and priceless commodity.
Jan Hinchliffe, firefighter, South Yorkshire
25 years ago as a young trainee in the RAF I was sent to mid-Wales to cover for the previous fire strike. We did not complain then and I don't see the servicemen complaining now.
I am a London paramedic and do not support the action to take the country to ransom. Everyone I have met over the past few weeks, including my patients, also does not support the action. When will it stop? If they want more money they must modernise like the rest of us.
Candy Rogers, UK
I am an ex serviceman with 14 year's service. I was involved in the last fire strike". I am now disabled (MS) unemployed and fighting a divorce. My "monthly income" for legal aid purposes includes my Disability Living allowance, even including the motability component. This means I have to survive on £558.20 a month. Plus pay £59.53 monthly towards legal costs. The firemen need to wake up to the real world. It's cold down here in the disabled world. I can't get a job.
Michael Fabricius, England
The fire engines and equipment belong to the taxpayer not the firefighters. They should be made available to be used by the military with or without the consent of the firefighters. Lives are at stake here.
As someone who is generally opposed to strike action and union dictatorships, I fully approve of the actions of our firefighters, they deserve a better deal. I cannot help but feel that our society has developed in such a way that those not directly contributing to expanding the economy are left behind. Firefighters save the economy millions a year and should have a cut of the rewards. Give them what they are worth Messrs Blair and Brown!
I would like to see Tony Blair have his pay cut to the same as what the firefighters get - and then see what he has to say about it! I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who could do his job, but it takes someone special to be a firefighter. Go for it guys - you deserve every penny.
Lynda, England
40% seems like a lot, but if they were already on £28k, then they'd probably be happy with a 2 or 3% pay rise like everyone else. You can only be taken advantage of for so long.
I think it's terrible they are going on strike. You go into a firefighting because you are willing to risk your life and to save other lives, not for the money. This strike surely shows this is not the case.
Maggie Glass, Surrey, England
Firefighters, shame on you. In the next 48 hours someone in the country will be trapped in an overturned car or burning house, and will suffer permanent injury or even death because you're not there to get them out. All of you must bear the collective responsibility when this inevitably happens.
The firefighters can strike all they like, there is no way they are going to get the 40%. Where do they expect the money to come from?
The fact the firefighters risk their lives to save others for just £8.50 per hour or less, before tax, is also immoral and unjust. People need to rethink their values and if the firefighters are so valuable to society then why don't we reward them for it instead of putting them in an impossible position? Don't forget many firefighters too these days are graduates who have studied at university before doing five years service to qualify.
Kim, UK
I am a nurse, working for the NHS. As a public sector worker I would like the government to consider this: Why doesn't the government change the rules re: public sector workers' pay by cutting the levels of our NI contributions and income tax returns? As a result we would get to keep more of our take home pay, without costing the government too much money. I have put this to several of my colleagues and all think that this is a good idea, allowing us a 'virtual' pay-rise, without asking the government to find more from its coffers. Any comment, Gordon Brown?
The firefighters should abandon a national pay scale so that more money can be given to those firefighters living in the more expensive parts of the country. The idea should be that firefighters have roughly the same amount of money left after paying for housing. The notion that all firefighters in the country should get a blanket 40% pay rise is absurd.
Never before have I ever backed a strike but in this case the firefighters deserve every penny they are asking for.
Sarah, UK
Given the current high alert status in the UK this strike is outrageous. You would not have found the emergency services asking for more money during WWII. 40% is also outrageous. In London, fair enough, but in the north and elsewhere this is just plain selfishness and greed. Nobody forces them into these jobs, if they need more money, get another job!
My wife is currently serving in the army and at present she is deployed because of the strike, not seeing our 13-month-old daughter, while the firemen try and bleed the country dry of any money that should be used for schools and hospitals. If they get their 40% then don't you think the nurses, doctors, teachers, etc are going to want the same?
I support the firefighters striking 100%. It's disgusting that the great job they provide for this country only denotes a salary the same as what a junior secretary receives. The government should open its eyes a little more and realise how much the firefighters actually do for that money. You wouldn't get me climbing into a five-storey building bursting with flames for any amount of money.
Brian Mayger, UK
We pay the firefighters to be there 24/7, and if they strike, they break any claim they make to be 'servants' to the public. They should be sacked if they follow this through. They are unskilled and easily replaced, and whilst there is no shortage of firefighters, there is no need to raise wages.
The Baines report has put a stop to potentially fruitful negotiations. The union has been very patient and has been proved correct in its assertion that the report was just a stalling tactic and a sham. Its recommendations are flawed and it expects wholesale changes for basically nothing in return. Our pay claim has been extensively researched and evidenced. We are worth it.
My father was a firefighter and took
part in the last strike from which the promised pay deal never fully materialised. Who can put a price on risking your life, cleaning up the remains of road accidents, pulling charred children¿s bodies from fires and a high risk of death in early retirement?
Gary, Scotland
As a serving fire officer for the last eight years I find myself in the unenviable position of going on strike. I and my fire brigade colleagues are NOT unskilled militant strike mongers. I am a dedicated, community spirited individual who is desperately trying to make ends meet and increase my income to a level that reflects the level of skill and dedication I give this job that I so dearly love doing.
I believe that all public sector staff should be paid a fair wage, I have spent four years qualifying as a youth and community worker (three at uni) and I only earn just over £18k. I work very unsocial hours five-six nights a week, for less money than a fire fighter. I think putting the public at risk is immoral and will achieve little as the country can not afford 40%. I only wish they could.
Yes the firefighters deserve more money, They put their lives at risk every day so if the country can afford the 40% they should get it. However 40% nationwide is too much for the economy to cope with.
However much I think they deserve the wage increase I would never support the firefighters whilst they strike, putting lives at risk.
Thirty thousand pounds in London is no more than a living wage but to give this nationwide seems unrealistic. The rest of the UK should accept a lot less - 23 to 24k, which is a more than adequate wage. If someone is struggling on that wage in the north they should re-evaluate their spending habits.
Dave, UK
Hang heads in shame and try to look the people that pay you in the eye. The public must not support this type of behaviour. Secondly, we not the firemen own the engines, we have the right to use them and I cannot understand why the army is restricted to using the Green Goddesses.
The government should offer, say, a 10% rise now, given the increased risks the country may be facing, and agree to further talks.
I would be happy with 11%. I earn half of what firefighters earn, and I manage okay. Firefighters know the risk of the job and the pay when they take it, if they don't like the pay they should get another job.
Cliff, UK
Salaries are generally based upon how many people have the ability to do the job. The more training and education needed for a profession, the higher the remuneration. The entry requirements don't require a degree, and it only takes two years to train - therefore, there are relatively few barriers in becoming a firefighter. Besides, wouldn't £30k attract the wrong type of person?
Having served as a local councillor, and employed as a prison officer I have always been under the impression that the firefighters were paid in line with police and prison staff. I am appalled that this government refuses to hold constructive dialogue with the FBU. The firefighters are worth £30k per annum, and more. Remember the scenes of September 11 and think again Mr Prime Minister.
Firefighters are putting lives at risk by striking. Could they face this when it happens?
Rick, UK
As a firefighter of 17 years, last tax year, after stoppages plus £2,500 in pension payments, I took home £14,500. Ten years ago my wife worked 12 hours a week to make up the household income. She now works 35. Does the whole of the country not realise that to keep a family afloat these days they need two breadwinners?
The vast majority of firefighters up and down the country are moderate, just like we are in Leicester. But I believe the government have just scored an own goal. This insulting offer has rallied our members and made us more determined to get a decent wage rise. The government seems determined to see us go on strike and so be it.
For anyone to say that the firefighters don't deserve the 40% rise, they should perhaps try doing their job for a week! The physical strains are extreme and the risk of early retirement (or worse) due to ill health is a very real threat. Just ask my cousin what it felt like to have a burning wooden beam smack down on his back! It left him unable to recover and exercise and as a result could never return to the field. These brave, courageous and hard-working people deserve every penny of the 40% they're demanding.
Leah Stockley, England
OK, so the strike has been called - fairly reasonable considering the efforts that firefighters do on a continual basis. What concerns me is the use of Green Goddesses during the strike - surely the Government can draft emergency powers for the army to seize the modern fire engines (as they would do with any other form of transport). Those old machines are going to put a lot of people's lives in unnecessary danger.
What everyone seems to be debating really is not the issue. The issue is, whilst they might deserve a pay raise, where are the government going to get the money? If every public sector union asked for a 40% pay raise the tax implications to the working populace would be quite large. Somewhere along the line, someone else would become poor.
If we can afford to take the country to the brink of war then surely better value would be achieved by offering the firemen a wage that actually allows them to live in the same area that they work and ensures that they only have to do one job to make ends meet. Support the firemen. Perhaps we could fund it by the government taking a pay cut - then we really would be starting to see value for our tax money!
The politicians didn't have to strike for a 40% pay rise, which incidentally was worth a lot more per year than what the firemen would get. This country seems to be run on the principle of paying some people as little as possible while others take as much as they can get away with - and it's usually the hard working lower paid people who end up getting less than they are worth and the powerful and greedy taking more than their fair share.
Paul Carpenter, England
Firefighters have not just pulled the 40% figure out of the air. A recent investigation by the Labour Research Department into pay has concluded that the role is worth £30,000 pa for a qualified firefighter. The Government chose not to accept this but insisted on holding their own "independent" review. It is strange that Sir George Bains' "independent" review has come up with such different results.
Beverley, UK
I appreciate all the firemen who risk their lives and want to be paid a decent wage but not a 40% increase. What about the police, who risk their lives regularly, they need more money. Teachers, doctors and nurses also need more money and they save lives.
|
|
 See also:
12 Nov 02 | UK
Internet links:
The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites Top Talking Point stories now:
Links to more Talking Point stories are at the foot of the page.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
 E-mail this story to a friend |
|
|
|
Links to more Talking Point stories |
|
|
|
||
 |
||||
 |
|
Back to top
|
||
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To BBC Sport>> | To BBC Weather>> | To BBC World Service>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- © MMIII | News Sources | Privacy |
~RS~a~RS~International~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~50~RS~)
