BBC NEWS Americas Africa Europe Middle East South Asia Asia Pacific
BBCi NEWS   SPORT   WEATHER   WORLD SERVICE   A-Z INDEX     

BBC News World Edition
 You are in: Talking Point  
News Front Page
Africa
Americas
Asia-Pacific
Europe
Middle East
South Asia
UK
Business
Entertainment
Science/Nature
Technology
Health
-------------
Talking Point
Forum
-------------
Country Profiles
In Depth
-------------
Programmes
-------------
BBC Sport
BBC Weather
SERVICES
-------------
EDITIONS
Friday, 28 June, 2002, 12:51 GMT 13:51 UK
Should Europe toughen controls on asylum seekers?

We discussed asylum and immigration in our phone-in programme, Talking Point, broadcast online, on the BBC World Service and on Digital television in the UK. Presenter Robin Lustig was joined by Sandy Buchan, Chief Executive of Refugee Action.

  Click here to watch the programme  

European Union leaders have been meeting in Seville to debate tougher curbs on asylum and immigration. Should the EU block those fleeing persecution and poverty?

The plan adopted in Seville includes proposals to form joint border patrols, and put increased pressure on countries outside the EU to do more to tackle the problem.

But it dropped a British plan to impose economic sanctions on countries which do not co-operate with the EU to slow illegal immigration.

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair says the people of Britain are not intolerant towards asylum seekers but are opposed to the disorder which the current system created.

Do you think that Europe needs to tighten up its borders? Or would that trample on the rights of asylum seekers ?

This debate is now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.


Your reaction

We write rules then re-write them when it suits us. At first the British Empire was to be based on liberty and citizenship, then it became simply a means of enriching the mother country. We drew arbitrary boundaries around the world, but allow some to ignore them but not others. We fix the basis of world trade, then complain when it works against us. We worship freedom of movement in goods and capital, but not in people (except for some, of course). Perhaps it's time we gave something back.
Steve, UK

The Fast Track Visa system has already caused a lot of damage to the indigenous IT industry within the UK. The world recession has been compounded in this country, by actively encouraging people to travel here and compete with local workers. When comparing the tax burden and cost of living of a UK resident, to that of somebody from, say, India, who does not even have to pay tax in this country if they work for 6 months, it is obvious that the UK worker will lose out in the current job market, as they will be undercut. Twenty-five thousand Fast Track Visas have been granted over the last 18 months, yet we have an estimated 40,000 UK IT professionals without work. And now we are talking about widening the scheme to include unskilled workers. What effect do you suppose this will have on the salaries of many lower paid UK residents, who already cannot afford to buy their own house?
David McQuiggin, England


Widespread immigration makes the gap between developed and undeveloped societies even larger

Brenda, Berkeley USA
On the six-billion-person planet, the West cannot provide rescue for all those who are unhappy with the economic prospects of their home society. Furthermore, by making that possibility more available, the poor are much less likely to engage in the hard but necessary work of reforming their own countries. What if the young Nelson Mandela had decided to blow off hopelessly racist South Africa and leave for the better pickings in Europe or America? Widespread immigration makes the gap between developed and undeveloped societies even larger.
Brenda, Berkeley USA

In the ultimate analysis, as many as 80% of the human beings on earth are suffering some form of political or economic oppression. Some say that anyone living in China, for example, has a claim for asylum in the west. I don't think the long-term answer is in one nation granting asylum to a certain number of refugees from another nation. The answer is finding the political will to find ways to make the living conditions workable in the nations where the suffering occurs.
C, San Francisco, USA

Europe and especially the UK is already overcrowded. Genuine asylum seekers, i.e. those whose lives are at risk from a government with a known human rights abuse problem should be welcome. For everyone else, just refuse to pay any form of social or housing benefit and impose massive fines on anyone caught employing non-EU citizens without the necessary work permits. (Actually, I think that this is very similar to how the USA welcomes illegal immigrants).
W J Andrews, London, England

It seems in this discussion that many people don't mention the importance of assimilation in immigration. We have a similar problem in the US, but the issue is not the people who come here to work hard and better themselves, it is the fact that increasingly, they want to import and impose their culture on the local culture. Make no mistake, culture and especially language are what defines and binds a society together. Not too many years ago, when a population moved into an area, but insisted on keeping their language and identity intact, that was called an invasion, not immigration.
Stewart, Salt Lake City, US

The amount of times I have heard people complaining of the privileged Royal Family, who happen to be born into wealth, who apparently do not deserve to live so comfortably, just because they were lucky enough to be born where they were. Seems strange that the same people would now claim that the wealth they enjoy is a "right" because they were born here.
Matt, Amsterdam, The Netherlands (ex-UK)

Europeans will miss tremendous opportunities if they adopt a fortress Europe policy. Immigrants are a self selected group of over-achievers. Here in Minneapolis we have large groups of immigrants from South East Asia, Latin America and East Africa. Generally they are hard working, clean living, have revitalized formerly depressed inner-city neighbourhoods and have helped to make this a more sophisticated and cosmopolitan city.
Andrew Smith, Minneapolis, USA


An EU-wide economic development package should be developed

Tom, London, UK
I think many here could be looking at this problem from the wrong angle. The issue is not whether we should be welcoming skilled workers in and denying unskilled workers; surely this smacks of economic imperialism. Besides, it is extremely unfair and selfish for the richer countries to be able to select and choose which migrants they wish to have; in the long term we are encouraging a brain drain on these countries where they will be most needed. An EU-wide economic development package should be developed; in this way we can foster the economic and political development of these countries and at the same reduce overall suffering and immigration numbers without resorting to an excessive yet unjustifiably selective closed door policy.
Tom, London, UK

Working in the IT industry myself I often read with dismay about the fast-track immigration policy. The only reason why there is a shortage of British people to fulfil these specialist roles is because of companies' reluctance to pay a reasonable salary and invest in training. Redundancies and job in-security is sweeping the IT Consultancy firms. This is economic short-termism providing cheap labour which makes the fat-cat owners rich. Refugees should be re-located immediately in the nearest safe-country to their home.
Alastair, London, UK

Turning Europe into a fortress will not prevent migratory movements - not if Europeans still want to enjoy the free movement of goods, capital and cross border transport. We are, after all, only seeing the beginnings of a gigantic migratory movement - by 2030 just 10% to 15 % of the world's population will reside in the "first world" but with 80% of the world's wealth. Putting up fences will not solve the root of this problem. The answer lies in levelling the chronic economic imbalance between North and South. As long as the "good life" is only to be found in tiny pockets of affluence like Europe, while the developing world languishes under an inequitable debt burden and under-investment, there is going to be an irresistible push and pull for people wanting a better life.
Ryan Short, South Africa

Immigration levels are not just a moral issue. Something instinctive and not accessible to argument has been triggered throughout Europe and Europe is turning right - increasing immigration will only increase this trend and result in destabilisation and turmoil. Blunkett's measures are weak and ineffective and even after the warnings of recent votes EU governments have failed to put in effective measures against either crime or immigration and in effect handed Europe to the far right on a plate.
K Budden, Essex

Why is everyone making such a fuss on immigration? It is as old as human history, so too the prejudice against what is strange or different. The Romans disliked the "barbarians", in the early 20th century, Italians, Greeks, and Spaniards were just as desperately seeking to leave their countries as Africans today. And regarding assimilation, there is no "pure" British/French/Spanish culture. It is the fusion of several cultures over centuries, and is dynamic.
John Franklin, New Delhi

People in the West should stop exploiting others around the globe. The west has created this problem by continuing to enslave the poor. This can be seen in Africa and Asia and also recently countries which should be well off: Argentina, Eastern Europe both of which are bread baskets with excellent agriculture. The west has created a huge ugly industry out of exploitation which includes loans, starvation, mafia, and the porn industry running in conjunction. It is the politicians, who have no morals or backbone, who are failing, the people of the UK by denying the causes of the problem. And if you deny the problem you too are the cause.
T Samra, Ireland

While I have every sympathy for the persecuted peoples of foreign countries, I get angry about the points of blame in the direction of Europe and America, just because our peoples are generally better off. Both Europe and America have fought in the worst of wars, if it wasn't for our brave nations standing up to fascists and dictators the world would now be in hell. It is no wonder Europe wishes to defend its boarders, we have a hard won stability, to jeopardise that would surely be a mistake.
Paul, UK


Let's use the skills of asylum seekers

George, London, UK
Why are we treating asylum seekers as criminals at the same time as we are recruiting nurses and teachers from all over the world because we can't fill the vacancies here? Let's use the skills of asylum seekers by letting them work where they can.
George, London, UK

To paraphrase what the late Pim Fortuyn said about his own country, the UK is full. Our education, health, legal and transport systems are groaning under the present strain, we cannot allow this seemingly unlimited flow of people into the country without it having dire consequences.
Paul, Reading, UK

Those people who talk disparagingly of economic refugees have never seen the depths of hardship and misery that so many people in the world suffer from. Those that have enough to eat are the lucky ones but even in places like Romania most people have no proper healthcare and no means of saving for their old age. We should let these people in. They are used to hard work and would do the jobs that the better educated people in Europe don't want to do. It's nonsense to say they would swamp our culture. Europe has been a melange of different peoples since the beginning.
Jean Cole, Manama, Bahrain


We are citizens of the world

Roberto Baccello, Treviso, Italia
The wealthy nations of the world should consider solutions to the problems which they helped create by European imperialism. It is impossible to achieve this by implementing the proposed immigration regulations. We are citizens of the world before we are citizens of any man-made illusionary institution.
Roberto Baccello, Treviso, Italia

Anyone who crosses a continent and hangs on to the underside of a Eurotunnel train to get here is welcome. As long as we allow the free movement of capital from one country to another, we cannot complain if the people from these countries follow.
Ben, UK

What can be done to counter terrorism when people arrive every day at every port in Britain without documentation? We have no idea who they are and we give them temporary admission to the address of their choice never to be seen again.
Colette Dunne, India


The luckiest workers are those who can still win their mobility by holding the right passport

Amos, Israel
While globalisation allows the free movement of capital and goods, it essentially bans the movement of workers. The luckiest workers are those who can still win their mobility by holding the right passport. The message from the EU leadership is basically: if you don't hold the right passport, you're not welcome.
Amos, Israel

Surely the other side of the coin in this debate concerns the "free movement of capital". If capital can move freely, and exploit people living in poor countries where capital benefits from a lack of labour laws governing pay, conditions, the right to form trade unions, and social security, why shouldn't poor people be able to move to those parts of the world where they are assured of such conditions and protection?
Mike Sale, Switzerland

It is very humorous to sit and watch European politicians bicker away about illegal immigration. Maybe they should think back to the past when they were faced with the question of European refugees escaping continental Europe. I ask the people of Europe to remember that we are a world before a nation. Maybe one day we will realise that. Think with compassion, understanding and love. Not with fear, hate and anger.
Chaturanga Janaka Bandaranayake, Sydney, Australia

The EU should accept those fleeing persecution but not poverty because all of us in the West fought hard to achieve the economies which we have. We lived through poor employers, financial crises like the depression and wars. Why should others who don't want to go through the same evolutionary process feel that they have a right to go into someone else's country to cash in on the wealth, made by the hard work of others?
Annie, Centreville, USA

I agree with the comments of Annie from the USA. Europe should tighten its borders. It's the right thing to do in a world where resources are becoming overstretched as it is.
Curtis Peters, UK

Tougher immigration legislation should in no way violate the UN resolution that protects the rights of every human being regardless of nationality. Many of these countries have earlier been ruled by European nations, who virtually emptied their resources and exploited them to the extent that these people are unable to stand on their own feet. It is important that European nations do some soul searching to find the cause of the human trafficking and mass immigration.
Mahesh Chandra Somani, Calcutta, India

Migration for economic reasons has been a fact of life since the beginning of human history. All UK residents are descended from immigrants, some of recent years, some of the distant past. The primary reason our dishonest politicians are focussing on the easy target of immigrants is to distract attention from their own failing social and economic policies. Since we do not allow countries outside the EU to trade with us in those goods where they might undercut us, of course their people try to move!
Paul Amery, London, UK


Improve conditions in the countries where the immigrants come from

Peter Edgeler, Edinburgh, Scotland
The only solution to this problem is to help improve conditions in the countries where the immigrants come from. It's no good burying your head in the sand and pretending that the only reason they come here is for benefits.
Peter Edgeler, Edinburgh, Scotland

Why do people, especially politicians, think it is fine to target asylum seekers for problems that are not the fault of either asylum seekers or ethnic minorities? Deal with the real issues - creation of jobs, improve the healthcare system, get education sorted out so kids can read and write adequately.
Geraldine, Glasgow, Scotland

Why do you accept immigration based on political persecution that may lead to death or prison, but won't accept immigrants in danger of dying from poverty?
James, Lagos, Nigeria

The people of Europe need immigrants because we do all of the hard work. Europeans are very lazy and the world is survival of the fittest. I have more right to be here then those wanting to keep people out.
Ali Nassar, Manchester, UK

What right has European countries to reject asylum seekers when they are responsible for many of the problems that are forcing these people to flee their countries? European policy towards Iraq has caused intolerable suffering and support for the military government in Algeria is causing many people there to flee. What about Afghanistan where Europe is mainly to blame for the instability there? If Europe does not want asylum seekers, it should stop interfering in the affairs of other countries.
Arbibi Ashoy, KL, Malaysia


How much needs to go wrong before our politicians will face the fact that the current situation is untenable?

NK, UK
Like any other people in the world, Europeans have every right to protect their countries from being over-run by illegal immigrants. The figures are far too high and we are already seeing the repercussions of this in a variety of ways - including the political swing to the right, riots in some cities, and young British Muslim men so disaffected that they went to fight for the Taleban. How much needs to go wrong before our politicians will face the fact that the current situation is untenable and is unwanted by most of the voters they are supposed to represent?
NK, UK

I'm 58 and have been unemployed for most of the last ten years because employers won't take on people over 50. Why is the government bringing in more foreign workers when British people like me continue to suffer a massive handicap in getting work which Labour has not addressed by banning age limits six years after it promised to do so in the House of Commons?
Michael Newland, London


I am an economic migrant

Amoroso Gombe, Cambridge UK
I am baffled and exasperated beyond measure. The simplest way to solve this problem is to stop agricultural subsidies and unfair trade. I am an economic migrant. I wanted to be a wheat farmer, found that there was no way to export my produce, came to the UK, studied engineering, remained to work. If I could have stayed home and met my dreams from there I would never have come to this country but to take away all our options and then act surprised that we decide to enter the fortress is folly of unspeakable magnitude.
Amoroso Gombe, Cambridge UK

As an African immigrant, I would like to say that the only way to stop illegal immigrants from coming over to your neck of the woods would be to improve the conditions and standards of living in the countries from whence we come. We need to fix the root of the problem, before resorting to futile tactics of stricter border patrol. Shut down one means, and illegal immigrants will find another. Remember, there is no-one more determined than a person with nothing to lose.
Elizabeth, Atlanta, USA

Europe needs labour from under-developed countries. At the same time under-developed countries are also losing their labour force to Europe. The solution is investment have to come to under-developed countries so everyone will stay in his or her country with dignity. Believe me it is not fun to be immigrant.
Efrem Mesgana, US

We continually hear Europe will need extra immigrants as in the future there'll be so many old people. The elderly are very capable of working and are only too willing to do so. Shouldn't we make use of a very experienced resource, not discard them by filling jobs they could be doing with immigrants.
S. Herceg, London UK

The people of both the United States and western Europe must declare that foreign governments confront their own national problems of overpopulation, poverty and social justice. People of the world must liberate themselves from the failed ideologies and economic policies of the past. The decades of mass migration to Western countries as a solution to their internal problems must come to an end.
Lou from Queens NYC, USA


How will Third World countries improve if they all keep running away?

Barbara Baker, USA
Many of the asylum seekers are fit young men. Why are they not using their so called determination and strong will oppose the oppressive forces that they claim to be running from? Their numbers are large enough that they should be striving for better homelands. Europe had revolutions, and civil wars and took hundreds of years to get to where it is today. How will Third World countries improve if they all keep running away?
Barbara Baker, Lafayette USA

How else can Europe re-populate itself without immigration? The world knows that Europeans have the lowest birth rates in the world and without immigrants Europe will die out over time.
Mike Chumawamba, Kenya


Have a little compassion for the less privileged

Ejike, UK
I think it is wicked that people are pressuring the Home Secretary and the government to be tough on asylum seekers as most asylum seekers are law-abiding and are less likely to depend on the state once they are able to find employment. Moreover asylum seekers only do the jobs the citizens will not do. They pay taxes and most are not entitled to any state help such as a free GP consultation, job seeker's allowance or a student loan since most have not enough documents as are normally demanded by the authorities. Most asylum seekers are unable to open bank accounts; they virtually live in a big open prison but have no choice. Have a little compassion for the less privileged and stop pressurising the law makers.
Ejike, UK

I think one needs to make a distinction between those who have a legitimate claim to asylum and those who deliberately leave their country solely in order to make a better life for themselves by becoming economic migrants. It is the sheer numbers of economic migrants that are causing public opinion and government reactions to sway in the way that they are. The unfortunate part of this whole problem is that, as usual, it is the most vulnerable people in society, the true asylum seekers, who suffer.
GR, UK

My daughter-in-law is Czech and living and working legally in this country. You do not know the amount of forms and consular visits we had to make before she could stay here and marry my son. Why then should other people just "jump the queue" and be allowed here permanently because they had stowed away in some lorry or railway wagon?
Anthony, Reading, England


Refugees and immigrants are used as scapegoats

Ben Drake, York, UK
This is a con! Refugees and immigrants are used as scapegoats. Politicians have failed to deliver on jobs, housing and public services, and are sticking the blame on those least able to defend themselves. It'd be better and fairer (and cheaper!) to stop spending millions on detention camps and deportation squads; instead simply let people come, live and work like the rest of us.
Ben Drake, York, UK

Ben Drake is blissfully unaware of the consequences of letting thousands of economic refugees into the country. These people are coming from countries where the average wage is sometimes less than $300 per year. They would enter our society and be very willing to work for minimum wages in ANY job. The result would be that everyone would have to work for the same wages and our own standards of living would drop as a consequence. The social system, which is already under a great deal of strain, would probably collapse too.
Phil T, Cornishman in Oman

It is about one of the most densely crowded and urbanised nations in the world asking whether it can take any more. Do not misportray it as a heartless or xenophobic attack on those less fortunate or of different race - it is not. It's the same as the US (the land of the free and of welcoming open arms to all) operating green card rules and rigorously policing its border with Mexico.
Adrian Lee, England

Could asylum applications not be assessed exclusively at Britain's embassies and consulates? These are staffed with personnel who are closer to problem areas and may have a greater understanding of local conditions and so better able to determine the merits of each case.
Andrew, Larissa, Greece

Has there been consideration of what is meant by so-called "illegal" immigrants? People who are fleeing persecution, murder or torture by their own governments, or their city streets have been turned into battle zones, have to, obviously I think, employ clandestine means in order to escape. How else are these people to flee? If you were trapped in a war-torn country or persecuted by your government would you only leave if there was a so-called legal means, and if not just wait to die? So what is really meant by "illegal" immigrants?
Chris, USA in Netherlands


Third World immigration is another form of colonialism and slavery

Jo, Manchester
Illegal immigration, including asylum claims, must be stopped immediately. It is utterly wrong on moral grounds for rich Western countries to exploit cheap Third World labour. We must instead invest more in our own people including their education and resettle people of Third World origin already in Europe. This will equip the Third World with talented and often wealthy people the West has in the past exploited. Third World immigration is another form of colonialism and slavery. It is morally repugnant.
Jo, Manchester, UK

While I agree with Jo, Manchester that we must stop exploiting the Third World and cheap labour - her solution seems strangely similar to that proposed by the BNP, send them all back, albeit dressed up in more PC colours. Nice try Jo but I don't think many people are going to fall for that argument. It's not immigration that is the problem - it is the global system that enables richer nations to maintain their stranglehold on third world economies through organisations like the world bank and IMF. The fact that so often immigrants become used as a source of cheap labour is because capitalism constantly seeks to drive down the cost of labour and always makes use of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged to do so.
Stephen Wey, Leeds, UK

Immigration is not the problem. Those who immigrate must be (and can be) assimilated. Assimilation should be a precondition of immigration.
Troy, USA

This is not a simple question. On the one hand, the populations of all western European countries are ageing and birth rates are falling. We need millions of new workers in Europe over the next 20-30 years to keep our economies going. On the other hand, it's clearly unacceptable for Europe to be flooded with people who we have not invited, and who for the most part are not fleeing persecution.

Europe as a whole needs to welcome genuine asylum seekers, and process their claims quickly and fairly. Economic immigrants should ideally vetted and given work permits whilst still in their country of origin, so that once they arrive they can quickly be processed. Anyone else should be sent packing.
John, England

To John, England, Importing a population just to support aging pensions is just totally wrong encouraging existing populations here to actually be in a position to have a family is the way forward. Treating foreign peoples as an economic resource is sickening.
Stephen, Ireland


We cannot afford to let just anyone come and take advantage of our generosity

John Cooper, UK
There is a huge distinction between those fleeing persecution and those fleeing poverty. If we let everyone in the rich countries would be severely dragged down and the poor ones would lose their most resourceful and determined people - everyone's a loser. Economic migration should be restricted to those who have a positive contribution to make to their destination country, examples such as IT specialists or doctors and teachers in Britain spring to mind. But we cannot afford to let just anyone come and take advantage of our generosity ad infinitum.
Jon Cooper, UK

This country has let enough people in over the years and strict quotas should now be applied. This is not what my grandparents and other people's fought the second world war for. It's a disgrace that this people come over here expecting us to pay for them, when there's old people of our own that need that help more. I'm not against the real people who need to be looked after, but how many really need to be?
Stephen Dewar, England

People make such sweeping statements about asylum seekers. Asylum seekers get 40 a week, 30 of it in vouchers, which when used, no change can be given. So, if a refugee wants a pint of milk, and only has a 10 voucher, he can have no change from it. If people found out facts instead of reading tabloid opinion, they would realise that England is not a "soft touch", nor are we being "swamped". By the way, a refugee invented the pill and Albert Einstein was a refugee.
Jackie, Leeds

It should be made easier to relocate to this country, providing you are a skilled professional with services that could benefit the British economy, or have sufficient money to invest in the country. The same goes for all other countries within Europe. We have plenty of needy people of our own, so why not house these first? If individuals want to sponsor asylum seekers to come and stay in their home, paying for them fully, then no problem, but we are wasting far too many resources on these people.
Scott Cheadle, UK in Netherlands


Overview

CLICKABLE MAP

Case studies

TALKING POINT
Links to more Talking Point stories are at the foot of the page.


E-mail this story to a friend

Links to more Talking Point stories

© BBC ^^ Back to top

News Front Page | Africa | Americas | Asia-Pacific | Europe | Middle East |
South Asia | UK | Business | Entertainment | Science/Nature |
Technology | Health | Talking Point | Country Profiles | In Depth |
Programmes