Are the police right to protest?

Police officers have staged a mass protest against plans to shake-up the service but Tony Blair has claimed most police workers agree with the proposals.

As many as an estimated 10,000 off-duty officers lobbied Parliament to protest at the proposed changes to pay and conditions.

These were overwhelmingly rejected last month in a rank and file vote organised by the Police Federation.

Police officers are not allowed by law to strike. The protest was organised to display their frustration. They say the plans will reduce their pay and proposals to give non-police personnel powers to stop, detain and use reasonable force against the public will not tackle crime effectively.

Do you think the police are right to protest in this way? Do you think crime is on the increase? Is the police service right to feel demoralised?

This debate is now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.

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Your reaction

To David, UK: you won't forget to ring the emergency number for your nearest anti-poll tax protest group instead of dialling 999, will you?
Henry Case, UK

Interesting that when the police took to the streets in protest that they were not charged by mounted miners

Jasper Richmond, UK

Interesting that when the police took to the streets in protest that they were not charged by mounted miners. Perhaps a group of anti-capitalists could have herded them in to Oxford Street for six hours. Whatever the validity of their argument they should be grateful that they are able to voice their dissent without being attacked.
Jasper Richmond, UK

Before I get on my moral high horse, I would just like to point out that the Met does nothing short of a grand job policing the streets of London town! It's all you whingers and cryers, moaners and complainers, whiners and griners, that result in poor police morale. Just remember this tune when you are felling down: 'Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner, that I love London town'
PC PLOD, London Town, England

No they DO NOT... In the early 1980s, following the Edmund-Davies recommendations, which linked police settlements to the earnings of all full-time employees, relative earnings of this group increased quite substantially, peaking in 1984 when earnings were boosted from overtime payments made during the miners' strike. Average earnings of male full-time police officers have exceeded their whole economy comparator in all but seven of the last 31 years and have risen faster than inflation in each of the last six years. The police Federation itself is nothing more than the largest Mason Lodge in the country, their gripe with the government has nothing to do with pay whatsoever; the Federation is simply a Thatcherite think tank, pining back to their "boot boy" days. They dislike Blair because he is "Not one of them" (secret hand shakes etc). I listened to the news last night and the majority of officers were concerned about the cost of living in the south of England; well if that is the actual reason for their grievance, I suggest they lobby the "Property or Estate Agents Federation" and not the government.
James Courtney, UK

It was nice to see so many bobbies out on the pavement, must have been a refreshing change!

James Miller, UK

When a historically tolerant and non-demonstrating group such as the police find it necessary to take to the streets in these numbers we should all take notice. This is yet another example of this Government's appalling behaviour in response to crisis in public services. How on earth can any amount of spin hide the fact that the police are unhappy with these proposals, when will the government give their mouths a rest and start using their ears? On a more positive note, it was nice to see so many bobbies out on the pavement, must have been a refreshing change!
James Miller, UK

I think that the administration work in the police force could be done by clerical workers leaving the police who have been given extensive training in keeping law and order free to do what they have been trained for. I haven't seen a policeman on the streets of Lewes for months. Where are they all hiding?
Christine Garland, England

Let the police demonstrate, but let the miners of days gone `police' the demonstration.
Ruth, UK

I would like to ask who got us into this mess in the first place? Was it not the Tories?

Y stalker, Scotland

Ok, I don't agree with all of the government policies. However I do feel that some of us have short memories. I would like to ask who got us into this mess in the first place? Was it not the Tories? I think Labour are doing the best they can to clean up the Tories' mess considering they are having to tackle all of the public services. There is no easy answer. The police are now feeling what other services and employees have had to conform to for ages.
Y stalker, Scotland

Prison officers, computer contractors, NHS cleaners, London teachers and now Police officers. Who will be next to get the new labour "persecute" treatment? I think the police have every right to protest. The reason they were not herded in to an alley way was because they were impeccably behaved. They do a difficult job for next to no respect and little financial reward. Of course we can be sure that one sector will continue to get pay rises, improvements in conditions, shorter hours and major benefits. I'll leave everyone else to work out whom these people will be.
Pete, Wales

Let the Police protest away and good luck to them. I support their actions 100%. I hope the government realise the massive importance of this protest. This is not just going to 'blow over' I'm seriously worried about the number of Officers on the streets nowadays, and the rise of crime in the UK. I would join the force tomorrow if it wasn't for the fact that they are paid a pittance.
Martin L, UK

So, Tony Blair thinks that the majority of Police Officers agree with the reforms. They must be in the same league as the Londoners that agree with the PPP for London Underground, and the London Teachers who agree with Estelle about London Weighting. Is it me? Or am I missing something in the way these messages from the people are interpreted? Wake up Mr Blair - we put you there -we can chuck you as well.
Kevin Saint, UK

It is untenable in this day and age that any group of workers or professionals should rely on overtime to achieve reasonable net earnings

Peter Sykes, England

It is untenable in this day and age that any group of workers or professionals should rely on overtime to achieve reasonable net earnings. The solution must lie in paying a decent gross salary which is not dependent on the number of hours worked as applies to millions in the private sector. Irregular and extra hours frequently arise in many professions without a requirement to claim overtime payments. The police should always have the right to voice a legitimate protest. In this case I feel they have backed the wrong cause.
Peter Sykes, England

The police are quite right to protest. Increasingly more often Mr. Blair has told us that the (unnamed) majority agree with his proposals on many issues. This is rubbish, as we witness through such protests as the police. It's not so easy to pull the wool over their eyes as the rest of the UK public. Mr. Blair. You may believe your own spin, a growing number see through it and don't.
Nick, UK

The police have some nerve. Speaking as a peaceful anti-poll tax protester who was battoned in the face for taking a photograph (my camera being smashed under the same policeman's foot) I think the British Police have no right to protest at all. Let them learn to take other protests seriously, then let them protest.
David, U.K.

The result of the ballot may have been different if David Blunkett had permitted more time for negotiations

Steve, UK

I attended the lobby of parliament yesterday. There was no march, just an orderly queue, some meetings with MPs, most Labour MPs didn't turn up and the use of buses and boats to get our message across. The result of the ballot may have been different if David Blunkett had permitted more time for negotiations; included more details in the proposals; obtained the funding for the changes before suggesting them; not insisted on the package of reforms being tied to pay and conditions; not drip fed the media with incorrect information; and finally, not change the proposals after they had been distributed. Christina, there were no 'protestors' wearing masks and balaclavas or smashing the windows of multi-national corporations.
Steve, UK

There is more and more violent crime on the streets and the government reacts by paying police officers less money. What a ridiculous situation. Pay our police officers properly - there will be more pride in what is a tough job and more recruits will be attracted to join the force.
Matt Bailey, UK

Like any other large group of people, there are police officers who do not fulfil the highest standards we would desire. A very small number are racist, a small number claim too much sick pay etc. BUT the vast majority do a damn good job under deteriorating conditions, and the public support is very much on the side of the police in their fight against the rising tide of crime. It is a huge issue of our time, and the police need our support and encouragement, less red tape and a concerted effort to raise their morale. I am sure the majority of Britons agree with these sentiments. I don't see what Blair hopes to achieve by taking on the police like this. The government seems incapable of listening to the police force's concerns. I seem to keep finding myself saying to disappointed Labour voters - 'I didn't vote for them, I told you so'
Jon Cooper, UK

Listen more to the views of ordinary Police officers.

John Marshall, UK

We are not against reform! As an officer with almost 30 years service, I have never known Police morale to be so low! We are proud to be Police officers and care about the society of which we are part. The public and thousands of Police officers, feel so badly let down by the judicial system of this country. The adversarial "game" has for so long favoured the criminal! It is not a search for truth and justice. Police officers work hard to reduce and detect crime. We bring offenders before the courts, only to see pathetically low sentences handed out; influenced by Home office guidance! The result is a criminal merry-go-round! The Home Office recent proposal to introduce non-Police Community Support Officers, with powers to stop and detain citizens, is another example of an ill-thought-out idea! I urge the Home Office - instead of constantly criticising our efforts, listen more to the views of ordinary Police officers. Work with and for us - not against us!

Yes let¿s have reform - of the whole judicial system, not just the Police. A Royal Commission is needed - NOW!
John Marshall, U.K.

The UK police force is one of the very best in the world and we all know that. They have every right to make these protests and air their grievances against the proposed pay changes. We rely on these fine people to keep us safe and secure. Let us never take them for granted and pay them what we should.. which is a lot more than they get now.
Tim, USA (From UK)

Once again we see the government putting forward proposals without talking to, and listening to, the people who are on the front line. What makes it worse is that when the front-line staff raise any sort of protest, they are accused of putting the general public at risk as well as being wreckers and breakers!
Paul Jonas, UK

The police are right to voice their concerns. They haven't had a great Press for several years but my blood runs cold at the prospect of civilian busy-bodies being given powers of arrest. It just shows what a tenuous grasp on reality Blair has when he claims that most police support his half-baked ideas. Given their shared disregard for unpalatable fact, it is surprising that Blair and Mugabe don't get on rather well!
Andrew, UK

The morale of the existing police officers will sink to it's lowest level ever

Anonymous, England

I am a serving police sergeant (so my views are obviously biased), however, I feel that the desired effect of reducing the costs overall of the police service by cutting overtime rates quite drastically and also by limiting what is on offer, will only seek to do two things. Firstly, the morale of the existing police officers will sink to it's lowest level ever - it is already at a very low level and cannot really afford a further reduction. Criminals laughing in the face of justice and less officers to cover more work are but a couple of the reasons. Secondly, officers are already leaving in droves because they join and soon find out what they are up against, facing fairly low pay for doing unsociable shifts and getting little or no recognition and appreciation. By reducing what little benefits already exist, there will be even fewer people joining the police service and even fewer wanting to stay.

The solution, as could be argued with the NHS and some other public sector jobs, is not to cut pay and conditions, but to increase them. Perhaps less money wasted of some of the more ridiculous things this government has supported would have been of some help.
Anonymous, England

I feel safe in the "zero tolerance" city of New York. The police have been appreciated by most of the people here. This is even more the case after 9/11. This is the product of the pro-police Rudy Giuliani. He now is unemployed. Perhaps he could give England a hand?
Tom Smith, New York, NY

Has Blair gone bonkers? Having just had his and Blunkett's police reforms comprehensively rejected by 10 to 1 he has the audacity to state that the majority agree with him. On what possible basis does he make this claim, which, unless he is a complete buffoon, he must know to be untrue? And if, as is obvious, it is untrue, does this not amount to lying to Parliament? One is beginning to think it is time for him to go to. My antecedent, Sir Robert Peel must be turning in his grave as the Government continues to demoralise one of the few great institutions still left in Britain.
Michael Peel, Netherlands

Time is of the essence in this problem. This needs to be resolved as soon as possible. Crime in England is bad enough without our police officers marching in London.
NB, UK/ NZ

The police do the best job with the limited resources made available to them by an incompetent government who don't how to fund jobs they know nothing about. As the daughter of a police man I have a good idea of how this difficult job affects the police and there families, does anyone outside the police know the fear of going to bed at night while you father goes out on night shift and your not quite sure if he'll return due the spiralling violence and lack of respect for people who are just trying to their job? People should stop condemning the police and focus on the difficult job they do in protecting the general public
Becky, Scotland

Aren't the police the ones that enforce government legislation by "policing" other demonstrations?

Christina, England

What hypocrisy! Aren't the police the ones that enforce government legislation by "policing" other demonstrations? I wonder how they would have felt if they had been penned into an area with no food, water or toilet facilities for the rest of the day, as the demonstrators had to cope with last year when they were protesting with during the May Day protests, I wonder if they were pushed and batoned around for what they believe is their right to protest about. I do not think the police can use this right when they so blatantly take that same right away from others in our "free democracy!"

As for the "good job" they do, when we have needed their help they are not interested. I do not feel protected by our police force; they are rarely there when you need them and are just not interested when they are. I suggest if they do not like their pay and conditions, which are far better than any nurses of the same length of training, then they should vote with their feet, just as us nurses are doing!
Christina, England

I am a serving Inspector - one of my functions is to act as a firearms commander. As such, I do not receive paid overtime and would personally benefit from Mr Blunkett's reforms. However, I voted against - because they would be counter productive and divisive. An example: I recently dealt with a firearms incident which was resolved by a team effort involving control room personnel, incident control vehicle staff, firearms officers, detectives, dog handlers, beat officers, negotiators and myself. Mr Blunkett wants to give some officers more than others - which ones win and which ones lose out? How do my colleagues and I motivate the 'losers' to carry on doing their vital roles for the public?
John Gledhill, UK

The police (and armed forces) should not be allowed to strike, BUT in return for removing this right, the government must also be forced to honour agreements reached by independent arbitrators in full, and not be allowed to use lack of resources or "that it goes against government pay (or other) policy" as an excuse for resisting the recommendations of the arbitrators.
Chris O'Hanlon, Finland (formerly UK)

I have no doubt that we are lurching towards a national strike

Rob, England

How on earth does Mr Blair have the nerve to say he's supported by the majority of police officers in his reforms? A vote, just a few weeks ago, clearly rejected the Home Secretary's bulldozer plans by over 90%. The government is getting more and more arrogant and more and more dictatorial as their term progresses. Spend, spend....but with no results... pressurise and ridicule the decent men and women of this country's police service until they can take no more. I have no doubt that we are lurching towards a national strike. Tony doesn't really care about the UK. He wants to be president of the united states of Europe.
Rob, England

As a serving police officer, of course I feel that we have the right to demonstrate, but not to strike. However, the government are pushing us to the absolute limit with spin and disinformation. With a vote of 10 - 1 against on the reform proposals how can Mr Blair say that the majority of officers are in favour of reform ? Who wrote that for him - Robert Mugabe ?
Mick Gordon, UK

Why should the police not be allowed the same rights as the rest of society? Yes they should be allowed to strike. It does not mean that they will.
Kim Reed, UK

One must consider the motivations behind giving powers to non-police personnel. You don't have to worry about spending a lot of money on police training, police equipment, police pay. You don't get complaints from a police federation about their conditions and if something goes wrong you can blame the private company that employed them can't you? What's the problem?

At least you wont be able to blame the government directly for the crime problem and the government can be seen to be doing something about it when it replaces the contract for the agency responsible. It keeps the full blame one step away from the government. It's all about policing on the cheap and transfer of blame. If the government isn't trying to police on the cheap why doesn't it invest "a lot" more money into it's funding, thereby saving more money through preventing more crime. "Not as simple as that?" how do they know, they've never tried it!
GR, U.K.

Let the police stand up for themselves, does the government stand up for them? Are they supported by court decisions? Are politicians having their pay and allowances reduced in line with the public sector workers that are trying their hardest to hold this GREAT BRITAIN up! Striking would endanger lives and law and order but protest away, work to rule. Perhaps Mr Blair could become a special constable and do his bit!
J Scott, UK

They work long, hard hours

Jo Waller, UK

It's about time David Blunkett was forced to listen to a voice other than his own! The police service in Britain is one of the best and most respected in the world. Every day they put their lives on the line in a world of increasing violence and hostility. They work long, hard hours which regularly separate them from their families so that we can feel safe to walk about the streets. And how does the Labour government reward them? By snatching away what little financial benefit they have left.
Jo Waller, UK

The only way companies in the private sector survive is to change their working practices. This is often painful for their employees but tough - there's a service/product to be delivered.
Richard N, UK

Of course the police are right to protest. Bureaucracy is up, government interference is up, pay and conditions are down. This is the most appropriate way of making their feelings known and getting them recognised.
Beryl, England

Tony Blair has clearly been spending far too much time out of the country and far too little time busying himself with domestic politics. For him to claim that the majority of police officers support the Government's reforms is just arrogant nonsense. Nationally the police are opposed to Mr Blunkett's proposals by 10 to 1 - fact. The police are right to protest and right to escalate their campaign if the elected-ones in Parliament refuse to listen.
Dick Straughan, UK

No, please carry on taking their powers away and making it so I can continue unmolested with my life of crime, apathetic to arrest and punishment. My fellow burglar and mugger colleagues love the way this country makes it so easy for us to operate unfettered. And the more you make the lives of the police difficult, the easier it is for me. Keep up the good work.

(I am of course not a criminal. This post is strictly a humorous view of a serious problem and should not be read in any other way. Thank you.)
A Criminal, UK

As usual the government are not listening to the people who know best just what is required, the Police themselves

Shaun, Teignmouth UK

Well of course the police are right to protest. They, like many others, are simply realising that this government, for all their fine talk of getting tough on crime, have simply not given the police the resources and support to achieve this.
As usual, however, the government are not listening to the people who know best just what is required, the Police themselves. They are arrogantly ploughing ahead with more crackpot notions designed to do everything on the cheap and attempting to cover their tracks with the ubiquitous veneer of waffle and spin.
Shaun, Teignmouth UK

Yes I think its fair that they protest. The government "IS" trying to police on the cheap. It's ridiculous that civil patrols will be given arrest powers etc. Also aren't we then i.e. with members of public being police moving towards an "Orwellian Nightmare" where the next door neighbour squeals because you don't have car tax? Or he/she sees you committing a very minor act that is technically against law but is generally ignored?
R Ganley, U.K