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Wednesday, 13 March, 2002, 16:13 GMT
Should there be a poll on a united Ireland?
Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble has called on the government to organise a poll on a united Ireland next year.
The request was made at the annual meeting of the party's ruling council on Saturday where Mr Trimble was also re-elected unopposed as party leader. Mr Trimble believes a referendum - the first on the issue since 1973 - will cement the province's position within the United Kingdom. If it is to be held it will coincide with elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly which are due to take place in May 2003. Do you think that there should be a poll on a united Ireland? This debate is now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.
Your reaction
Justin Brady, England
Despite all of the opinions that have been voiced here I find only a few mention Democracy. If a referendum would show what the majority of people within the province want, then who are we to argue, besides that as somebody has already mentioned who is to say that if it did become a united Ireland, would the unionists just accept it, I don't think so. The only result would be the Republic of Ireland spending the cash to keep the peace and not the mainland UK. Have a referendum, Have it NOW and let the people that live there lives the way they want to live them. Whatever they decide, let it be known that it is the people of Northern Ireland that must make the choice - not the politicians, not the terrorists, but the people who live and work there. That is Democracy in Action.
Any vote on a united Ireland should include the whole of the UK. It should also include the Irish Republic. Do they really want Ulster and the problem that it would bring?
Would the rest of the UK be better off without Ulster and all its troubles?
Whatever the outcome of such a referendum the killing would not end. There are forces that use the religious bigotry to sustain their illegal operations and therefore do not want an end to violence.
Michael, South Africa
Yes, there should be a poll. But it should include all of the main stakeholders in the Irish situation. The entire population of the British Isles, including the Irish Republic and the UK, should get a say.
I presume that Adams, McGuiness and their cronies would ensure there was a mechanism to ensure an "early an often" pro-united Ireland vote?
I wonder how long it'll be before our foreign policy will be blamed for this also.
Martina, UK
I have often wondered how much of the problem is associated with the geographical fact that Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland make up an island. If the combined territories were landlocked maybe the "need" for re-unification would be less intense. It's time the people living on this island realised that they actually form part of modern Europe - and I abhor the idea of a superstate run by Brussels - where individuality by region prospers.
A referendum on the issue would seem to be the most logical step; for example, the Alsace region decided to return to French sovereignty after WW2.
A Referendum may be a way to solve the Northern Ireland problem but only if a United Ireland outcome was the result.
The British Occupation of Northern Ireland is an immoral example of colonial residue that needs to be dissolved. The fact that the removal of the British Force may not be economically or demographical pragmatic is irrelevant. The referendum is unjust as its essence is the polling of an occupying force that happens to be in the majority. Clearly they will validate their colonial interests. If the will of the masses is unjust, it should not be heeded.
To answer Steve from Northern Ireland - we (the rest of Britain) are not apathetic about Northern Ireland; we're just exhausted, frustrated and infuriated that no peace initiative is ever given a decent chance of success. The men of violence - on both sides of the conflict - always find it much easier to reach for another bomb or gun than to work towards a satisfactory solution to this horrible situation.
Bobby McBride, Canada
The only reason Trimble wants the referendum in 2003 is that he knows that Unionism will win it referendum. The next referendum cannot then be held for another seven years, which will give Trimble time to eat away at the growing Nationalist voice and secure Unionism for a further seven years after that.
I'm really appalled at the comments from some mainland Britons who claim that money is being wasted in Northern Ireland. This province be your outlook Nationalist or Unionist or other...is a British responsibility. It's no good the British public saying they want to leave.
I don't think that a poll will be helpful at all. The people who are causing the trouble in Northern Ireland, Unionist and Republican alike, will never accept any solution that does not fit with their vision. People who would plant bombs or murder for political gain, are beyond caring about plebiscites. People like that make me ashamed of my Irish heritage.
James, Dublin, Ireland
To those who suggest mainland Britain should have a say on whether NI should remain part of the United Kingdom, what would happen if a resounding majority voted to remain in the Union in NI while in the rest of the UK they voted against the union? Any vote on the mainland would never carry the same weight as that in Northern Ireland because it is only the people of Northern Ireland, as laid down under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, who can and will determine their own destiny which they should in the referendum proposed by David Trimble
I think people are missing the point on why David Trimble called this. Mr Trimble is worried about the increasing DUP majority that is occurring in the province. Mr Trimble, I believe, realises that people feel more strongly towards this issue than the MLA elections, so in getting people out to vote on a United Ireland he feels the failing UUP vote may also increase. Secondly, if there was a referendum in Northern Ireland there must also follow one then in the Republic of Ireland to decide if they actually want us to join their state and also a third in Great Britain to decide if they want to get rid of us. I think a lot of people here somehow just accept the fact that the Republic will automatically receive us with open arms. I am assured that is far from the case! A third and final issue is why Northern Ireland doesn't instead become an independent state so then anything which did occur might not necessarily be through consocialationalism? Is it not time we started doing things for ourselves?
The issue of a referendum is one big scam. Trimble knows the majority of people in Northern Ireland are protestant so what sort of democracy is that? The simple fact is we "British" stole part of Ireland years ago through a bloody war of conquest and the descendents of the people who stole it are still living there - why on earth should they have any say in the matter - if they want that much to be part of England let them come and live over here and give Ireland back to the Irish.
Paul O'Hanlon, Republic of Ireland
Neil Whillans, let me ask you this: In the event that a majority of the NI electorate ever did vote in a referendum for a United Ireland, would you accept the result? I ask this because you say you are from Belfast originally and I discern from this and your comments that you are a Unionist. My next question is this. People born in Scotland of Italian or Irish immigrant descent see themselves as Scottish, just as people in England of African descent see themselves as English. In this context, how is it that people born in NI of English and Scottish settler descent, i.e. the Unionists, do not see themselves as Irish?
I notice some people here are proposing a "third way" i.e. an independent Northern Ireland. This in unacceptable. If that happened then we would make sure it wasn't independent for very long!
I agree with Trimble. A referendum would settle the border issue for at least a decade. It would be most important that the referendum be properly monitored. There has been a suspicion of gerrymandering in the past and the proposed referendum is too important and long lasting in its implications for there to be any doubts.
Alex, England
We all know that the reason there will never be peace in Nothern Ireland is because of religion so to me that makes a referendum on the future of Nothern Ireland irrelevant whilst religion still dominates. If the North votes to become one with the South, does anyone think the religious leaders in the South won't begin persecuting the Protestants within weeks? Here's a solution: Get all the Catholics to go and live in the South, after all Southern Ireland is a Catholic country, right? Problem solved. They have one of the fastest growing economies in Europe, so why do the Catholics continue to want to live in a province of a country where everything is going to the dogs with Blair's policies? Doesn't make sense to me.
Is it not about time the Canadians and Americans gave Canada & the USA back to the Indians? After all they have been there less than three hundred years. Britain has been in Ireland since the time of Henry Tudor.
Britain and USA boast that they are embodiment of freedom of choice. Why should there be a referendum? Clearly there should be a united Ireland.
Alaska was never part of Canada, It was a Russian possession purchased in the 1860's. And yes, it has been given back to its original owners; native peoples control the majority of the natural resources in the state. Maybe the Brits need to make the same settlement in Ireland.
Alison, USA
What about the rest of Britain, does the whole of the United Kingdom have a say in this issue? I suspect that Roy, Great Britain's prediction would be true. "Britain Says No", too?
Sure we should have a referendum on a United Ireland - on the mainland that is and if the Guardian opinion poll of five months is anything to go by then the majority of British people will vote for a United Ireland - and do so with a great sense of relief!
The only solution for Northern Ireland is for it to become a totally independent state with no affiliation to dying Britain or the Republic of Ireland. Something has to be sorted before the rest of Britain goes it's own separate ways, can we also have a referendum on the 1707 Act of Union, England would be far better off on its own financially.
Say we all do end up in a United Ireland and 5 years later the majority of people who live in what was Northern Ireland decide they'd rather be back in the UK, do we get a referendum on that?
Joseph O'Neill misses the point of Trimble¿s call. Its to show precisely how much support their is for the Union. It is thought to be substantially larger than the 55% percent of protestants that make up NI. This would indicate that population demographics based on religion are not a valid indicator of the state of the union and would open the eyes of SF/IRA to the views of the Northern Irish population.
Kirsty, UK
The reason Trimble has suggested this is because he knows the vote would be "no". Surely the most democratic way is what the majority want and if the majority want to remain part of the UK then they should. If we use 17th century borders as an excuse of rightful land then the world would look a very different place. We have matured with history and what is right must be determined by the situation at present, not some ancient nationalistic claim.
No. it's too early. The Catholic/Nationalist population are still a minority - albeit a very large one ( over 40% ), and as such I see little point. I say this as someone who passionately supports an All-Ireland unitary state - though I would accept a federal one with the North having a devolved government if that was what it took to achieve unity. Southern Irish opinion polls always show massive majorities of around 80% in favour of unity. But what's the point in holding a referendum if the result , i.e. a "No" is already a forgone conclusion?
I hope one of the options available on the referendum is that Northern Ireland becomes a republic itself and it is no longer part of Britain or Ireland. Then there would be nothing to fight about. Total self rule.
I think that Trimble is right in holding self-determination as the most important factor in whether or not Ireland unites. However, why should the entire province have to agree? Separate referendums should be held in every town, or maybe county, in Northern Ireland, and any town (county) where a majority of people want to join the Republic of Ireland should do so.
Chris, United States
Isn't it a bit ironic that in the same week that we are criticising Mugabe for perverting democracy, some people would deny a poll in Ireland because they are afraid of what the democratic outcome might be.
What's the point? If the Republicans won, and unification went ahead, then Unionist terrorism would kick off again and vice versa. Like most conflicts and disagreements until religion, history and vendettas are forgotten the dispute over a united Ireland will never be solved by war, peace or referendum.
Excellent idea. Of course, to be truly fair, the only people eligible to vote on this issue should be the people of what might become this "United" Ireland.....that is people from BOTH North and South. Somehow I don't think that is what Mr Trimble has in mind though.
Like most mainland Brits, I'm sick to the back teeth of Northern Ireland, and fail to see why my taxes should pay to sort out the problems of a province where people riot about what route little girls should take to school. We should make Northern Ireland independent. This would remove the argument over British or Irish rule, and make the prosperity of their country dependant on the two tribes learning to co-operate for a change.
The older I get, the more surreal I find the Northern Ireland issue. The Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom are culturally and linguistically homogenous these days, for various reasons (globalisation etc.). Both countries are democracies and are members of the EU. We both have the same drinking habits and we'll probably both soon be using the same currency. The conflict seems to me to be about settling scores or something political or economic beyond the understanding of mere mortals. Yes, perhaps we should have a referendum but it won't make the slightest difference to that tiny piece of land with roughly the same population as Manchester. What's done cannot be undone. Gaelic-dominated Ireland died a long time ago and church attendance is declining everywhere in the western world. Perhaps we could have a referendum on the uniting both islands under a new umbrella nation with a different name, a different flag and a different capital city? That's a no less reasonable proposition than a united Ireland. Just please don't say this is about human rights. The UK is not the USSR.
Give Ireland back to the Irish. It is about time that the Brits quit meddling in Irish affairs. Colonial England has done enough harm to indigenous populations around the globe. Can't we pin the current Fiji crisis on English colonial policies, Zimbabwe, etc etc. Quit meddling and give Ireland back to the Irish to determine their own future. Of course, maybe you can blame it on the Americans, as most talking points seem to do.
I would like to respond to Colin, Canada on his "give Ireland back to the Irish" comment. I have many friends from both regions in Ireland who are exhausted by the continuing conflicts and also want and end to the problems that have plagued the country. However, Northern Ireland remains a part of the United Kingdom and for the majority in Northern Ireland this is how they would like it to remain. They are currently under the protection of the UK and UK laws and do not want their homes and lands to be taken away from them and given over to another country. There is a huge divide over law, religion, politics etc and just because a small number of terrorists go around bombing and killing innocent children, women and men does not mean we should then hand over the homes and livelihoods of hard working decent people to thugs. America would never consider Canada "taking back" Alaska, why should we do the same? Our government has a right to protect all its citizens, especially those that live in such hard climates, we can not turn our back on them and just "give them up". Many in the UK would wish an end to this conflict but we cannot sacrifice millions of peoples homes for it - where would they go? What would they do? The persecution of the two religions would only escalate. Recently we have witnessed children as young as 4 being pelleted with missiles for trying attend a school where they needed to walk through a different religious area. They were 4 years old!!! If these wounds go so deep that children this young are considered legitimate targets then imagine what would happen if they were not offered protection. Uninformed comments like yours only fuels the fires of hatred. Please stop and think before saying something so naive and insensitive to the millions of people living in Northern Ireland.
Steve Cahill, England
The question is really about economics. Will Northern Ireland's economy be better off tied to Ireland with its euro or with Britain still outside the Eurozone. As Britain's Social Security system is so much more generous than the South's and as Northern Ireland residents can buy all the South's cheaper items such as petrol just across the border anyway, the result is a foregone conclusion. The North has had, and still has, the best of both worlds. Why change?
This call has more to do with stifling internal decent than an advancement of the Unionist cause. The Unionist electorate will judge Mr Trimble on his record, not the latest cloak he puts on.
Why not go the whole hog and have a global referendum about every border in existence. It's pointless, all of it. I fail to see how a referendum would appease the losing parties enough to stop them feeling aggrieved.
The vast majority, I believe, would still vote to remain part of the United Kingdom even though the British are apathetic to what goes on in our province.
I believe when the government peace structure has been fully implemented and all parties are participating and decommission has been effectively put in place, then maybe the question might make some sense.
It's something that affects the people of Northern Ireland so they should be the ones who decide. The politicians have been arguing amongst themselves and going around in circles for far too long.
Although I live in the States I am British. I feel that the people of Ulster should be allowed to vote and a decision made once and for all on their opinions. If they wish to remain part of the U.K. then their wishes should be respected.
Máire, US Let them have their referendum. Make it a legal requirement for everyone to vote and, whichever way the vote goes, let every organisation recognise that it is the only legitimate answer. Wouldn't that be a nice situation?
In reality, do you honestly believe the IRA or Sinn Fein would accept a British government even if the majority wanted it? Or would the Unionists accept an Irish government if the people wanted it? I, for one, would like to know what the people really want, though, so let's go ahead.
Nick, UK
Who would take part? The whole of the UK and Ireland? Just the province itself?
Yes, honour the spirit of democracy and have a poll. Having lived and worked in Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic, my feeling is that the people of the latter are by far the happier and more content of the two. But remember that although the removal of the political frontier might be relatively easy, reconciling cultural differences and local prejudices that exist between these two isolated and very different societies may take rather longer to achieve.
Rob, England
The best way out for Northern Ireland may be a form of independence. Sighs of relief will be heard in London and Dublin (who wants to be minister for Northern Ireland?) but more important is that it will force the people of Northern Ireland to deal with their problems, instead of looking outwards. It might even give them some sense of unity. There is the risk of a full-scale civil war, however.
Absolutely. It is the only logical means to a United Ireland and Tony Blair and his government must approve this. I can only hope that when it does come about that the majority of the NI electorate use their commonsense and vote for a united Ireland which even a simpleton can see is the only chance of bringing about a peaceful final chapter to this unsavoury episode.
Since the Unionists are always emphasising how British they are, why shouldn't the people of mainland Britain participate in this vote too?
Isn't it about time we in Britain were given the chance to vote on whether we want to stay united with Northern Ireland? I suspect the result would be a resounding no!
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