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Friday, 22 February, 2002, 10:14 GMT
Losing pounds and ounces: Does it matter?
Five UK market traders, dubbed 'the metric martyrs,' have lost their long High Court battle for the right to trade in pounds and ounces.
The court rejected their claim of a loophole which meant European Union rules requiring goods to be sold in metric units did not apply in England and Wales. All five men have already faced legal penalties for selling their wares in imperial measures. A spokesman for the five traders said defeat meant "the death of democracy" but pledged that the fight would continue. What are the implications of the ruling? How do you view the actions of the market traders? Does the legal result matter? This debate is now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.
Your reaction
JJ, England
The sooner we trade in kilograms and sell in euros the quicker it will become crystal clear that food is cheaper on the continent and shops will be forced to drop prices. That is progress.
Why are we wasting our Courts time on prosecuting the Metric Martyrs? Surely our legal systems time should be spent on prosecuting those who actually do something worth prosecuting?
Clive, UK
I'm 21, I've used metric all my life, I have absolutely no idea when it comes to imperial measurements. I couldn't tell 4lbs from 2oz at all. 14 of this, 12 of that, it's just silly. We should go metric all the way.
It's all pointless. Whether you buy a bunch of bananas in pounds, grammes or whatever, makes absolutely no difference. Bananas bought in pounds will not taste better, nor will have better nutritional value than those bought in kilograms, and vice versa. It seems the only genuine hang-up that people have with the change is their own personal preferences, stubbornness and tradition. If this is the case, then I find it ludicrous that people should worry themselves over such trivialities, when there are so many other more important things going on in the world. Look beyond your fruitbowl!
This incident has two aspects. Its all about freedom of choice for the people and about control of the people by the unelected faceless people in Brussels. Very soon we will not be able to vote for our MP's. They will be appointed for us by Brussels. We are now past the thin end of the wedge and are now approaching the thick end. The thick end being total control of our lives by Brussels. We now have only have small freedoms to fight for but even these small victories are worth the fight even though the war is already lost
Steve Payne, UK
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the Blairs announced baby Leo's birth weight in imperial measurements. I was raised on pints of milk, pounds of butter etc, but I believe it is now time for the UK to adopt the metric system fully. If athletics can cope with losing the mile to the 1500 metres surely the rest of the nation can cope too.
What jobsworth brought this prosecution anyway? I prefer metric units but to prosecute for using any widely accepted and understood measure is plain stupid.
Rather than buy your bananas by weight, why not buy them by volume? 4 bananas please meets both the metric and imperial criteria.
Derek Elwell, Australia
Sooner or later all our measurements will be in metric. I, for one, will be happy when it happens. I work in the oil industry where America plays a predominant role and they refuse to change to metric. This means that, for the past twenty years, I have had to work in both sets of units. This sometimes gets very confusing and can lead to mistakes in engineering. On the other hand, if people wish to buy their bananas in pounds, then why not? Isn't that called freedom of choice?
Some points of metric are a farce. I work in the steel industry and the basic measurements are feet and inches. Even when we receive metric goods from Sweden or Romania they come in merely metrified equivalents of standard imperial measurements, i.e. 20 feet by 8 feet or the metric equivalent. Rarely do I see any blueprints in metric that used 'round' numbers but once converted the old imperial standbys are quickly spotted.
Helen, UK
There is still a need for people to have a knowledge of metric and imperial measurements. Having worked in the Middle East and South East Asia, it is common to come across both, especially when working with American consultants, who still use feet, inches and gallons, lots of machinery is also calibrated in imperial.
I don't really care if we use either, as long as I can still get a pint of beer. I do feel sorry for any youngster starting up in engineering, who has no knowledge of imperial measurement.
How is changing a standard of measure progress? The true cost is the adjustment cost that everyone has to make in their everyday lives for absolutely no reason at all. Those who blindly believe that synchronization with Brussels is progress need to re-evaluate their own democratic heritage, especially when that change comes at the hand of an unaccountable "government".
I assume that if I order a pound of banana's these 'Metric Martyrs' will accept my groats and florins in payment.
Barry P, England
I am really overjoyed that those who try and stop Britain progressing have lost their appeal. Contrary to what one of them said it is democracy at work. This country has suffered for far too long at the hands of blockers to progress and we are have become the laughing stock of many countries, including many from the third world.
Sadly, the media don¿t help. They rarely get to grips with change. If just the BBC stuck to all metric units in its news the country would become familiar with them within weeks, so why not be British and take a lead - distances in km not miles, liters not pints, temperatures in Celsius - with no "old currency" conversions.
Darren, UK
What very few of the comments here reflect is that this kind of senseless and completely unnecessary regulation is driving us towards a kind of society utterly foreign to our way of life in the UK. In France 25% of the entire population are civil servants. To understand the tax system, just as an example, you have to know your way around 28,000 different legal provisions. This is really what the EU is creating for us: (unproductive) jobs for the boys. If we got up off our knees we'd pull the plug. I predict we will within 20 years.
What kind of mad person puts 14 sub-units in a unit.
14, 14, I ask you;
Where in the world did 14 come from?
Or 16 for that matter...
I have friends in Europe and travel there frequently. I have too agree with the comments that most of the news we get in the UK about Europe is rubbish. Ireland has thrived, the introduction of the Euro is a massive success and the quality of life in Europe far exceeds that here.
The metric martyrs are no such thing, they are backward individuals with no vision, buried in past glories (like the 1966 world cup) and wars.
Europe has moved on and so should we.
JP, UK
At the age of 51, I'm quite happy to use metric measurements. They're easy to convert to Imperial, so what's the problem. Before we get hung up on the "But it's British" issue, let's remember all the old British measurements that are now redundant - when was the last time we weighed or measured in bushels quarts or furlongs?
I prefer pounds and ounces when buying food, but I'll happily use either. What is sad though is the waste of taxpayers' money over this issue - all thanks to some over zealous civil servant who ought to get a proper job and do something worthwhile in our society.
The way we measure space and time is a reflection of ourselves and of our identities. Nobody can or should take that away from us.
Stu, UK
Surely it would make more sense for us to adopt an entirely new numbering system based on the number of peas under my fridge. There would be no difficulty in units then. Everything, speed, time, weight, etc. could be measure in under-fridge-peas (UFP's). For example if it was 20 UFP's to my girlfriend's house and I travelled at 10 UFP's per UFP then I would arrive in about 13UFP's. Now wouldn't that be more sensible? Of course the unit 1 UFP would have no logical or mathematical connection to the number 1 we currently know and love. Lets stop arguing about stupid metric and imperial scales, up the UFP!
The main issue, it seems to me, is one of consistency. In my local supermarket, I can buy things in both pounds and grammes. A lot of commodities markets quote in USD/lb. It seems like a disproportionate response by the trading standards officers to pick on a small group of traders, who as far as I am aware, are selling in both Imperial and Metric measures. Could we see class actions against supermarkets and some commodity exchanges? Can we just have some consistency and see a little less bullying and such shocking waste of time and money by the autocrat wannabes in the local town halls?
I was brought up with pounds and ounces but frankly that or metric is fine by me - I'm not so thick that I can't make the conversion from one to the other, nor simply get used to a different system. However, can someone tell me why a European directive is necessary to ban traders from using pounds and ounces? Putting it simply, if their customers want pounds and ounces then where is the problem? If their customers don't want pounds and ounces then the traders will either change their weights and measures or suffer their customers going elsewhere. Supply and demand will sort out the pounds from the kilos, so why do we feel the need to have a law?
I think we should all convert to the FFF (Furlong / Firkin / Fortnight) system. I'll be starting a campaign when I get a millifortnight to spare.
Guy Chapman, UK. May be unaware that one furlong per fortnight is the
definition of the British standard 'Snailspace'. A unit widely used
to measure progress of public transport and local authority bureaucracy.
(1 Snailspace approximates to 10 millimillipede speed).
Attempts to introduce this unit into European law regrettably failed shortly
after the French delegate got his hands on the snail.
I hope I am not a little Englander, but it does seem to me as if there is a degree of vindictiveness against British traditions in Europe, with at least a tacit compliance by the Foreign Office and Government. What is wrong with selling goods in both Imperial and Metric? After all, our leader (on his occasional visits to Britain) implores us to find ways of providing what the customer wants.
During my days in England, I was amazed at how much more goods like cars and calculators cost when compared to other European countries. The explanation then was that it cost manufacturers more money to localize their products to the esoteric UK market - driving on the left and insisting on having two different measuring units. This issue and the other one of the world perceiving the UK as old when it comes to business and lifestyle will only get worse if trifling issues like this are elevated to national status.
It's ridiculous; by the same logic the Government should be taken to court because all road signs need to have kilometres as well as miles. I suspect Brussels is envious of British individualism. Roll on the single European language in Brussels. French will find itself "outdated."
What matters is that we really haven't gone metric at all. We still drink pints of beer and drive in miles. What is more the authorities who prosecute traders for selling goods in pounds should also prosecute anyone who puts up a road sign in metres/kilometres. Road signs have to be in feet/yards/ miles by law.
We should either go fully metric (as Australia and Canada have done) or allow people to use whatever they want.
Dave G, UK
16 ozs in a pound, 14 pounds in a stone, 8 stones in a hundredweight, 20 hundredweights in a ton. Why are people so nostalgic about such a lousy system? The metric system is easy to use, except for those determined to resist it.
The ability to use both metric and imperial units is a fact of life and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. I am an Engineer. I work with machinery designed in feet and inches. I refer to research papers which report their results in Imperial units, yet I present my own work in metric units. While it is true that metric units do make some arithmetic simpler, Imperial measures are easier to visualise. As James (UK) rightly points out, this is because imperial units have evolved from human experience while metric units are based on definitions which mean nothing in everyday life. EG one metre is defined as the distance travelled by light in 1/299792458 seconds. Logical?
A brief answer to Rob Collins. As an engineer, you will be well aware that a metre is marginally longer than a yard, a kilogram is just over two pounds and a litre is just short of two pints. Your argument that metric measures can't be "visualised" as easily as imperial just does not hold water (in either pints or litres).
On the other hand, let's not forget that our statute mile - which one day we will reluctantly relinquish in the arguable cause of progress - was originally a metric unit of distance introduced by the Romans (mile stems from mille: a distance of a thousand double paces marched by a Roman Centurion).
Perhaps those in high office who choose to bully a person for selling his bananas locally in an obsolete, albeit traditional unit of measurement, should first turn their pernickety attention to the global problem of eggs and water pipes!
The law allows you to put imperial measurements providing there are the metric one beside the imperial one.
Do people think about the millions of people who visit the UK every year who do not know these measurements?
I think that a litre of beer is a much better size than a pint.
Also the problem isn't how the customer and trader agree on quantities, no one would be arrested for asking for a pound of bananas, but how the price is calculated. The law is surely there to ensure that prices are comparable. It is hard to convert from metric to imperial but if everything is priced in one system you can easily see where it is cheapest.
These people should really get a life! Metric measurement has been around for years and really should be the standard today. It is easier to work out and is an international standard (apart from that other backward looking country - the USA.
And if democracy is so fragile that it only takes a change from imperial to metric to kill it, then it is about time it was taken off the life-support machine.
I think the ruling proves what we already know. People who we have not voted for in a democratic manner, and who do not even live in the same country, can force us to abide by stupid laws. If your average market trader, who only earns a few bob (sorry I mean Ecu, don't arrest me) and is not doing any harm to anyone, can be dragged through the courts and fined, what does this bode for the future of being part of the EU, and who will be the next victim who is made an example of?
Why is this country obsessed with crustaceans such as these? The only Euro news that we get here is rubbish about 'straight bananas' or 'cucumbers of a certain length'. Now this!
We shouldn't applaud redundant systems like metric weights. They are too clumsy. And using kilos is not the same as having no democracy. It is the same as living in the real world, however.
At the end of the day, if these men want to use the old way of measuring fruit and veg, then let them. What harm does it do? And is it really worth wasting even more of taxpayer's money on prosecuting these men, when we don't have enough teachers for our children or doctors to treat our sick.
Politicians should take a reality check and start dealing with real issues instead of stupid idiotic court cases that, on the grand scheme of things, mean very little to the normal man and woman on the street.
As someone who was brought up on the brilliantly simple metric system, I don't know what the fuss is about. Only Britain could faff around for 30 years using two different systems. We got used to decimalisation overnight, surely those of us still clinging on to the archaic idea of 14 pounds to a stone/ 36 inches to a yard/ 1760 yards to a mile could get to grips with 100cm to a Metre/ 1000m to a km/ 1000g to a kg.
Logie Urquhart, UK
Pounds and Ounces, Pounds, Shillings and Pence, Inches, Feet, Miles! They are all perversely overcomplicated old style measures that gave people major headaches at school. Just what was the point of having measures for weight that went up in 16's, 14's and 2240's? I'm sorry, but measures that use a single base of 10 are far more logical and easier to use.
It is good to see the back of all these measures and anyone refusing to sell in them should have their licenses to trade withdrawn.
This IS the 21st century!
This country has been metric since the 60's but we have been slow on the uptake. I think it's good that, at last, these people can stop wasting our courts time.
I was born in 1971; the year that we went metric and I cannot understand peoples attachment to the imperial weights and measures. No-one under the age of 35 will have been taught anything except metric and the fact that some luddites still like to use this confusing system is a little strange. We should have changed to metric in the same way that the Euro has been implemented, all change on one day and then phase all road signs and weights out over the next two months, if we had done that no-one would give two hoots about quaint old pounds or ounces any more. I do feel that these metric martyrs need to get their priorities right, there are many things that matter and are wrong, but how we weigh our spuds isn't one of them.
While things may prove confusing at first to some people, it is worth while being on one system. However I think this should be a rule of thumb not a law that is punishable.
Most amusing aspect of all this is that they intend to go to the European Courts to overrule a European rule.
Let's face it, they're going to lose, why draw the whole thing out?
John, England
Just another incident where "EU rules" wind up being excessively heavy handed and undemocratic. What the EU mandates is canon, individuality, diversity, freedom, all are second to conformity.
I send these comments as a member of the pro-metric group the UK Metric Association (UKMA). We of course believe that the ruling was the correct one. But we also feel that this case was entirely unnecessary and avoidable. It has come as a result of the failure of successive governments to complete the change over to metric following the decision to do so back in 1965.
What we need is a public campaign of education to help people adapt to the change comfortably.
It is imperative that Britain clears up the imperial mess we are now in, where we use measures from both systems.
It is not the job of market traders to educate their customers and to that extent feel sorry for Mr Thoburn and others who felt the need for such drastic steps.
No it doesn't matter. I was educated in the metric system, not imperial. Why should I have to learn two systems, surely causing more confusion? There has recently been a spate of road signs in the south being 'vandalised' by someone placing 'miles' and 'yards' signs over the existing metric ones. I have no idea what a yard is and what gives these people the right to change them and saying they're doing it in the interests of the public. It's not in my interests and not anyone else's who has been educated since the seventies. People have had long enough to get their head round the conversion and not without help either! What help do I get when trying to work out how much a pound is?
James Crosby, UK
These few market traders are unfortunately way behind the times - metric measurements are more sensible - and their arguments are not convincing, at best merely nostalgic. They are wasting time on a lost cause of their own making.
The fact that the UK has retained its pint measurement for beer only serves to prove that an element of individuality can be maintained where it continues to make sense.
Metrication, or rather a common system, allows consumers to compare like for like. If the 'metric martyrs' wish to show their prices for weights in lbs and ozs without incurring the wrath of the EU legal system, they only need to show them behind the kilo price, not unlike the gallon to litre conversion stage at the petrol pumps. They will soon tire of it.
This is a disgrace. As a customer I have the right to request produce in whatever units I am comfortable using. Although I personally rarely order "a pound of bananas" as I prefer a more tangible "six bananas", I frequently order loose cheese along the lines of "three inches off the end of the block". As long as the price is the same, regardless of whether the customer orders a kilo of bananas, two pounds of bananas, or six bananas, I don't see why Europe feels the need to meddle. As the saying goes, give them 25.4 millimetres and they'll take 1.609344 kilometres.
George, England
Whilst I would not personally get too worked up over what weights were used, I feel it should be the fundamental right of the traders to make their own choice in this. If they are not supplying a service which the public are in favour of the whole thing will just wither on the vine, but if they are then why must they be stopped?
No it doesn't matter, what total drivel. It's important to standardise on units of measurement for many reasons. A great recent example is the failed Mars probe, doomed because engineers of its components were using different units of measurement to build it. Furthermore, laws protecting the traders and consumers from each other will often refer to weights and measures. Whilst we all appreciate the need to keep the whole picture in mind in terms of our rights as individuals, we all have to give a little to reap a greater benefit. Losing the imperial pound is no sacrifice at all, and those who claim otherwise are petty in the extreme.
Toby, UK
It might seem a trivial issue whether oranges are sold by the pound or by the kilogram. At other levels of trading, however, the consequences may be important. Not so long ago, Nasa lost an interplanetary probe that had cost millions, because one contractor had used metric units and another imperial units, and the unit conversion had been forgotten! On a smaller scale, dishonest traders might use 'rough' conversion factors to cheat the customer.
I admit that such legal measures seem draconic, but the 'gentle approach' doesn't seem to work. The USA signed up to the metric system by the treaty of Paris of 1875, but still hasn't managed to convert its industry!
It matters a lot when one is using an American cookbook, which gives figures in pounds and ounces! How much more do we have to kow-tow to Brussels? We waste enough money on the EU without more of our money being spent on stupid cases like this. I can think in metric or imperial measures, but I don't want to be forced to ask for a "kilo" of apples, when I want two pounds! Incidentally, the French markets still sell stuff in "livres", i.e. pounds!
I'm surprised Sue Hudson's American cookbooks give measurements in pounds and ounces. I've only ever seen US recipes that use cups and spoonfuls. And i've not seen a British cookbook in ages that doesn't give measurements in both metric and imperial.
This whole thing is ridiculous. Imagine if, after decimalisation, people were still trying to charge for their goods in imperial money. Or if French traders now refuse to accept euros and will only take francs. The imperial system of weights and measures is now no longer legal tender - just accept that fact! I'd find it much less confusing if everything was standardised in metric, I know that.
As is confirmed by the embarrassingly silly quotes made by the defence in this case, the resistance in certain quarters to metrification is yet another example of some people's tiresome determination to pass off petulant, parochial, "who-won-the-war-then", anti-European bloody-mindedness as "patriotism". Is it any wonder the government is reluctant to hold any referenda on European issues when this case beautifully exemplifies the petty level of debate that is likely to ensue?
We may as well have lost the war looking at what the EC wants us to do, what with temporary workers' rights, and the life expectancy of pounds and ounces limited.
I would just like to point out that metrication was introduced well before Britain was part of the EU, in 1965, so has nothing to do with the EU (They introduced it EU wide well after that).
I'm 47 and find the metric system far easier to shop in. As for the elderly having problems, what an insult to them, older people are far more experienced with life and have adapted to many changes. This does seem such a trivial matter, these traders should grow up and stop throwing their toys out of the pram.
I don't really care in what things are sold in (as long as it is clear), but I do believe to prosecute over this matter is very draconian and pointless.
Kulu, UK
I am in my 30s and prefer pounds and ounces to kilograms, I prefer to ask for a pint rather than half a litre, and as for distance I use miles and would rather not change to kilometres.
I still don't understand why we had to change, it did not benefit us, and we were happy have both units working side by side. Currently we can still purchase kitchen scales that show pounds and ounces, however how long will it be before these too are outlawed?
Caron, England - I am in my 50s and have used both metric and imperial measurements all my life. An inch is approximately 2.54 centimetres, that's 25.4 millimetres. The seconds pendulum (each beat takes one second) of a longcase clock is exactly one metre or approx 39.14 inches in length. Personally I have always preferred metric, it seems the more logical measurement.
Metrication is fine for the scientific and technical communities. But the units have no relationship to human activities. A yard is a yard because it is a man's stride; a pint is a pint because it is a comfortable measure to drink, and so on.
By all means, let scientists and engineers metricate; but leave ordinary mortals to their mortal measures.
James, UK, is quite right, as an engineer I'd far rather work in SI units ... but as an ordinary drinker I'll insist on my pint and as a food buyer I have to say I am not at all impressed with going metric and as a driver I have no idea of fuel economy without performing units conversions. If I pay money for goods then I demand the pricing per unit is convenient to me as a buyer rather than to please the suits in Brussels. I still haven't worked out all this bleating about "progress": how is it "progress" to change from a convenient unit to one that isn't?
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