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Wednesday, 9 January, 2002, 10:14 GMT
Is UK transport the worst in Europe?
The transport system in the UK is worse than its European counterparts, the prime minister is reported to have been told.
The criticism is made in a draft report by former BBC director general Lord Birt - now Tony Blair's personal strategy adviser, the Times newspaper says. The report is said to suggest that Britain has the most congested roads, the least electrified railways and no high speed train system. The comments echo a report published by the Commission for Integrated Transport last November. It concluded that the UK has the longest commuting times and some of the highest bus and rail fares in Europe. Do you think that Lord Birt's criticisms are justified? Will the government act on the report? This debate is now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.
Your reaction
Nick Roberts, UK
For goodness sake can we not just be thankful that we have a working transport system? So it's not perfect by a long shot but clichéd as it may sound there are people in this world who have a lot more to get steamed up about than whether their train is half an hour late. Like where their next meal is coming from and how many days they will have to WALK to get it. Let's please not get so worked up about something which, to be frank is not the most important thing any one of us will read today.
I used BR about 10 years ago to commute into the City of London and beyond to Bromley (from Potters Bar). A year ago I started commuting into the City again, not for long! I'm doing the run on a motorbike now, not much in the way of time saving, but I know to within 10 minutes when I will arrive, I get a seat every day and it's half the cost!
Elliott, Canada
UK rail is quite frankly pathetic. I live in Japan where trains are immaculately clean, fast and incredibly punctual, I have not had a single delayed train in 2 years. I love the Osaka train network, absolutely love it! Best in the world. The conductors (wearing clean pressed uniforms and crisp white gloves) bow to you as they enter a carriage when they walk through. Compare that to the diabolical British rail system and it really is embarrassing. Shame on you Britain.
Well, at least you guys have public transportation in the majority of your country. Unless you're in a huge city in the US you HAVE to own a car. When I was in London last winter I found the tube to be quite pleasant compared to the New York City metro though I have yet to find a subway system as reliable, speedy and clean as Washington DC's
Steve Franks, England
Think the UK is bad? The entire board of the Dutch State Railways Service (NS) has just resigned. Just consider that for a moment or two.
Last year I commuted between Bristol and Reading for nine months. The service was frequently late but the trains were clean, staff helpful and I much preferred to take the train than travel by car down the M4 each day. Now back in my native Cornwall travelling to work is absolute bliss. A 20 mile journey in 20 minutes, by car of course.
Transportation is far worse in Sweden right now. We've had hundreds of train departures cancelled since Christmas, when the snow and cold came. On top of this comes local transportation in metro areas, which is another very sad and depressing story, not to mention time consuming. Our brand new trains unsurprisingly cannot deal with snow or cold and break down. The result is total chaos in the national transportation system, with 80-100 national departures a day simply not running. The same thing with local trains as soon as you see snow in the air. It's a total scandal both for the national train company and manufacturer Bombardier, who sold trains unable to function in low temperatures to a country partly above the polar circle.
Quite simply the UK is providing an appalling transport system, but let us not blame any single government. The system has been collapsing for years. Here in Saudi Arabia the system puts the UK to shame and the Saudis believe their own system is bad. If successive UK governments put the same finance into transport as they do into spin and bluster the world would look at its transport system with envy instead of ridicule.
At least in other countries you can have fag while you're delayed for an hour.
I live in London but I have spent nine months in Spain. The UK often looks down on Spain as a bureaucratic and inefficient country. But the Spanish transport system is absolutely top class compared to the UK. In Madrid and Barcelona, trains are clean, punctual and a real pleasure to use on a daily basis. Quite the opposite of the transport system here.
Although I'm strike-bound today, generally my train to London is pretty reliable, although at £9 day return for a 13-mile trip, it's not cheap.
I also think we have a bit of a rosy view of travel abroad. Yes, the French have really fast sexy trains, but they also have bottomless state (i.e. taxpayer) subsidies, incredibly surly staff and weekly strikes.
I disagree with the people here who say it's simply a case of throwing more money at it. The ridiculous SWT strikes at the moment are much more about the management's right to discipline poor workers, even if they are union activists.
Zobo Kolonie, London, UK
The Brits often think when something works in England that it must be the best in the Europe, even the world. Conversely when it doesn't it must be the worst. They never seem to back up these statements with evidence. Has anyone, for example, compared the Italian railway system with Britain? Palermo to Messina, our gateway to Rome and the north, takes 3 hours by the fastest and normally 4 hours for 115 miles.
We're always being told how much better the trains are in France. Well, when I was in the South of France last year the trains (from Antibes to Nice) were absolutely dreadful! They were frequently up to 50 minutes late. Twice when I saw the train was late I went down the beach for a while, had a swim, and when I came back the train still had not arrived. And the French people were all complaining like mad.
I really do not see how the rail industry can be allowed to strike given that we the customers are paying for a service in advance which is subsequently not provided. I pay over £3000 per annum for the privilege of travelling on trains little better than cattle trucks. Trains that have not managed to run on time for over a year. It's fine for someone to suggest a passenger strike BUT I would like to know what would be achieved given that the majority of passengers have paid for their fares in advance.
The last time I travelled to Nottingham three engines broke down on the way and the journey ended up taking 10 hours instead of 5 hours. I can't remember the last time I travelled when there wasn't a delay. As a result I never use trains anymore. Until we have decent system there really is no point.
John, UK
Like many of the contributors to this forum, I have used public transport in a number of other countries, and have invariably found it to be superior to Britain's, especially in Holland and Turkey. I frequently take trains in this country, and they are squalid, unreliable and expensive. Why? As far as I can see, we are trapped in a vicious circle of preference for cars leading to under investment in public transport, which in turn leads to further dependency on cars. Sad to say, we are getting the quality of public transport we deserve.
For the past 18 months I have been doing a one hour commute into London using Connex South East. For most of this time the journey has taken a large chunk out of my quality of life. The trains are very old and they are dirty, noisy, overcrowded and often run late. I find the whole experience frustrating and exhausting and for the privilege I pay over £270.00 per month. I have often considered giving up working in London and if I do, the sole reason for this will be the degrading experience of having to stand for most of the journey, being shaken to pieces, freezing or baking and fighting with other passengers over seats whilst paying a small fortune to a company that can¿t seem to do anything right.
Tim Heffernan, USA
There is a worse transport system and a more incoherent transport policy. Come to Ireland
Slightly more common sense would go a long way. Seems obvious to me that a two carriage train that is always overcrowded needs an extra one. And people aren't going to get out of their cars to help protect the environment while trains are just as expensive, at least as unreliable, and usually far more uncomfortable than the alternative.
My girlfriend makes a daily round trip of 60 miles to Glasgow to attend University. Last term alone she missed at least 20 classes due to unexplained delays, cancelled trains, speed restrictions, industrial action, last-minute timetable alterations and various other combinations of the above. Much focus has been rightly placed on the inconvenience caused to workers who are late for, or unable to get to work due to these highly unreliable services, but we would also do well to remember that we are making it virtually impossible for many students (who do not own cars or have other means of transport) to get to classes and receive the education that the government is so allegedly keen for them to have. As a closing point, would it not make more sense to try to phase in lower fares on the rail network whilst concomitantly compensating for this with a moderate rise in income tax rather than the current situation where we all pay highly inflated fares for a severely under funded service?
Callum, Norway (British ex-pat)
I'm depressed just how wastefully we use the money allocated to transport. The west coast route modernisation is likely to end up costing more than the TGV Sud. They got a new high-speed line and fancy new trains. We get a 125mph limit and the same old bottlenecks. This typifies our inability to get value for rail travellers, perhaps because of mismanagement, ineptitude and excess red tape. A clean sheet approach is needed.
Pardeep, Isleworth, UK
It is the worst in the world. I spent some time in Moscow and St Petersburg and for a fraction of UK prices you can travel on clean, prompt trains. I used to live half an hour from Weybridge (where I then worked) and using public transport, it took me two hours to get to work and then two hours home. I travel with SWT now that I work in London and that is even worse.
Oms, UK
My concern is that it is simply not possible to "fix" the railways before the next General Election. The danger is that a cynical, spin-loving government might give up on rail and instead spend our money subsidising road users, just to get a "quick win" on transport.
When will government and civil servants wake up and realise that transport cannot be left to market forces. I live in Germany where the public transport system is excellent AND the motorway system has been designed to provide alternate routes between major cities. The main cities are congested but nothing like as bad as London, Manchester or Birmingham. Here there are options for travel, in England the car is the only realistic way of travelling long distance because public transport all radiates from London. We will only get things sorted out when politicians are judged on delivery and performance and not spin.
Phil George, UK Our public transport system is in a mess and is certainly one of the worst in Europe. European countries see public transport as an important part of the economic infrastructure and invest the appropriate level of, mainly, public money to provide and effective and reliable system (although typically not cost efficient). The UK¿s problem is an unwillingness to publicly fund, to a sufficient level, public transport. However, it is at the same time considered perfectly acceptable to pour massive amounts of public funds into our congested road network. It is absolutely clear that privatisation does not work. Too many bodies have been created - each with their own set of overheads to meet and profits to deliver. From an operator perspective it makes sense to minimise investment whilst increasing prices as often as possible. At the same time the return to a nationalised British Rail type organisation is not the answer, this did not work either.
Perhaps the answer is to create a number of not-for-profit organisations run by the private sector. For this to work, however, it has to be recognised that either we pay taxes indirectly through income tax etc. to provide the first class service this country needs, or we effectively pay directly through higher ticket prices.
Thomas, London, UK
The underground system in Moscow is of a much higher standard than the Tube in London. Trains leave every two minutes during the day, every 4-6 minutes at night and delays are very rare. The amount you spend on a one day travel card in London will cover your city travel costs for a month in Russia. It's quick, reliable and cheap unlike the UK.
I rarely need to use public transport in the UK but I doubt it can compare with a recent experience in Italy. I travelled First Class with reserved seating on Eurostar from Florence to Rome for £12.
Of course you could solve a lot of transport problems by scrapping the system by which just about everyone starts work between 7.30 and 9.00 am and leaves work between 4.00 and 5.00 pm.
If you had half the working population starting at 11.00 and finishing at 7.00 pm you could dilute rush hour and it wouldn't be anywhere near as busy.
Austen, England
I am amazed that the British public just takes this service so stoically. It is unreliably bad. You should be out on the streets demonstrating! In Switzerland it's subsidised and it's a great service. And we pay less tax!
Having travelled by train in France last week I had to be impressed by the service. It is clear that we missed an opportunity to create a separate high-speed intercity rail link in the UK. It would have surely eased the burden.
Secondly, the rigid nine to five working practices of most companies creates pressure on transport at peak times. More flexibility on start/finish times and more encouragement to work from home would help.
Lee Upcraft, France
The scale of the problem is so huge it is frightening. Imagine the disruption and building work required if the government decided to build more tracks and platforms serving the major commuter routes. I don't think it's feasible. The train companies will just have to make the existing network as efficient as possible.
There are just too many people crammed into too small a place. We desperately need another major business centre to get people out of London. It is also time to put the brakes on immigration. We have a similar population to France and a great deal less land mass. No wonder we are having problems.
Tough solutions but it's a tough problem.
I don't think there is any debate that UK services are the worst in the developed world.
What I find perplexing is that I can fly to Sydney,
on a Virgin plane for less than I can travel London to Newcastle on a Virgin train.
Graham, NL
My husband commutes daily from Northallerton to Newcastle and we have always been amazed at there only being one train every two hours. Then in October, due to lack of train drivers, the only morning commuter train was withdrawn until February 2002. A bus service now operates to Darlington to catch the next connection to Newcastle. The bus is hit and miss as to whether it makes the journey on time - or even at all. My husband therefore drives to Darlington station most of the time as he cannot risk being late for work and to add insult to injury is charged £3.00 per day to park our car.
I think that we need to wake-up to the fact that we are in no sense a first-world economy and cannot begin to compete with other EU states. Such a realisation would, at least, allow us to confront the very many problems we face from a realistic perspective. Only then might we be able to make the right decisions to address the real problems plaguing all areas of our public services.
Ed Cook, Melbourne, Australia (British)
I live in the States but travel often to the UK. I've read a fair number of scornful comments about the state of US public transport. My current residence has a bus stop across the street that's visited every 15 minutes; the bus on that route will take me to a LRT that will take me all over the Valley in clean, quiet surroundings and they run every ten minutes during rush hour. I can take my bike on board if I don't want to bother with another bus at the end of my journey. I spend $300 annually for unlimited use of this service. When I come to the UK, I rent a car; it's not worth the delays or the dirt.
Yes, Britain's transport is the worst in Europe because everyone in Britain wants a free lunch. They want top-quality public transport but they don't want to pay for it either through taxation or through high fares.
The main reason that transport is better in other European countries is that they pay higher taxes and these are used to fund and subsidise the transport systems.
However, throughout the 1970's and 1980's everyone in Britain wanted lower taxes and less government control.
You all got what you wanted. Governments generally do what they think people want - that's how they get re-elected. Whinge and whine, blaming the government as long as you like but at the end of the day you asked for it, and you got it.
James Williams, UK
I will happily pay for a better service. But I will not pay for Railtrack bonus payments to directors.
The public transport where I live is poor. There are no buses after 6pm, they are dirty, people smoke on them and one of the buses squeaks like an elephant-sized mouse. I can't wait until I pass my driving test. In my own car, I can driver after 6pm, keep it clean, not allow people to smoke and best of all it won't squeak, no matter how big or small it will be!
Matthew, USA
The standard of transport varies widely across the UK. In London, where I live, the trains and buses are usually packed full at 'rush hours', and uniformly dirty and over-priced all of the time.
I spent the last few weeks in Newcastle, and what a difference! There were more buses on key routes, particularly at peak times. the Metro train service was excellent (although it does shut down overnight), and people looked and acted much more relaxed and happy. Perhaps Mr Birt, Mr Blair and Mr Livingston should take a trip up North to see how it should be done!
Wow! Lord Birt has got something right! He has spotted that our transport is dreadful. But rather than making fun of him, we ought to be ridiculing Tony Blair, who felt he had to ask the question.
Transport is dreadful because Labour abandoned it after the 1997 election. They had promised to act to provide alternatives to the car, but didn't do anything for three years The only improvements I have seen are to buses in London since Ken Livingstone took over. We need someone committed to transport like Ken in charge.
Andy, Northampton, UK
In recent years I have travelled to Spain, Portugal, Austria, Italy, Greece and Turkey - every single time I have been truly amazed at the low cost coupled with high standards of service (regular, uncrowded, clean)that seems to be the norm everywhere other than here...
Although I don't use the British public transport system too often I am a Railtrack shareholder and therefore demand performance reports year in, year out. Believe me, they do not make bad reading. If you look at how often our system is used compared to that of Europe you can understand why we have the problems we do. What are we expected to do? Stop Britain for a couple of months whilst we get our house in order? It's just not possible. I think a slight increase in fares would see more investment in a higher quality of service.
The public have only themselves to blame. Until we are willing to provide adequate funds through increased taxation and by modifying our living patterns the situation will only get worse.
Chris Cowdery, UK
No. It is the worst in the World! Wherever possible I used my bike when I was in the UK. Couldn't trust the subway to actually run on time or for the station to be open (i.e. shortage of staff, common at Old Street and Archway). Not enough trains on the over ground to make it worth while (once every 30 mins) and the buses get clogged in the traffic. All this, NOT in the suburbs, but in the Capitol city of the New Force for Good! OK!
My annual season ticket for unlimited use of all buses, trams and mainline trains within the Brussels public transport area, which extends well out into the suburbs, cost me 355.73 euros - approx. 217 pounds. What's the price of an annual season ticket in the south-east up to London?
To John, Brussels, I will tell you how much my south east annual rail pass is: £3500!
So SWT are on strike. This means that you have to wait ages for a train, and when it comes, it is hopelessly overcrowded. What I want to know is this: how did anyone notice the difference?
NM, UK
With respect to NM's comments about Belarussian transport infrastructure. Well, I spent a year in provincial Russia and I can also say that the service there would put Britain to shame. Clean and efficient with plenty of buses/trams - everything that the service in the UK is not.
When it takes 2 hours to travel from London/Dover but only 2.5-3.0 hours to go from London/Paris/Brussels, something must be wrong. The Kent Coast mainline has been handed to Eurostar on a plate and SE Kent commuters must suffer. 2 hours to travel 70 miles - pathetic. Do Connex care? No. 50 year old rolling stock, stop orders, no express services, no access to crucial London termini at peak hours, 1 train an hour after 6pm, more stop orders, please wait while Eurostar services take priority, no compensation - pay up and lump it.
Get your act together Connex and provide peak express services - for £5000 a year I think I deserve it.
Re-structure the railways to the ways they were before nationalisation after the war, build wider roads in our cities, park and ride systems and Light Rapid Transits (LRT). Planning and approval of LRTs and railways need to be moved from the national to local level to speed things up and private companies should be approached to build the LRTs. Tough decisions will have to be made, but buildings some historical, some middle class homes will just have to go we just can't go on like this. There is no set solution - all avenues need to be developed.
We do have a high speed train system - it's just that we used existing lines rather than building new ones as the French and others did.
And least electrified railways? Does it matter when you build high speed diesel trains instead of electrifying.
While our transport system is bad, this report is just another attempt by the pro-Europe brigade to portray the UK in the worst possible light compared to mainland Europe.
Peter - this is NOT the "pro-Europe brigade" (ah, them again) trying to portray the UK in a poor light! This is people talking from personal experience.
Whatever your views on Europe, for ANYONE who has used public trasport on the continent it is impossible to deny the gulf in quality and value of service.
I've travelled by rail to a reasonable extent in France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and the Czech Republic, and our service is the worst by far.
But what do you notice more than all? The smoothness of the ride. This is because the rails have been replaced in the last 20 years. Trains aren't supposed to lurch, clunk, bounce etc.
Malcolm Haig, UK
I assume Mr Birt didn't count Ireland as part of Europe. The transport system there is far worse than that in the UK - partly due to rapid economic growth following years of under-investment. Of the larger European countries I'm sure we have the worst system, but we didn't need Mr Birt to tell us that! We need some solutions.
Yes, for a number of different reasons. In Europe many towns and cities have trams which carry most local Commuters into city centres quickly. In the UK most of these commuters use the National Rail network thus causing problems to Intercity trains. In the UK, Harold Wilson's Government closed 40% of the network which has not been done to the same extent in the rest of Europe. Investment in the railways has always had to compete with Government spending on Health and Education, and has therefore always suffered. The Railway Unions have always been among the most militant in Europe that that has helped undermine business confidence in Rail freight. The national rail network is completely and utterly worn out. If we start putting it right now it will take at least 10 years to show any improvement at all and those years will involve a lot more disruption as tracks and routes are closed for repair and re-building. But the general election is less than 5 years away. So what's going
to happen ?
Andy Grant, UK
I think we have to agree that Lord Birt's criticisms are justified. I don't think the government will do anything about it though. Sure, they'll have a policy and a couple of inquiries, followed by yet another high profile policy launch. But will it make matters any better for those of us who have to use public transport? I'm not holding my breath!
The grass is always greener on the other side. In Paris, in theory, we have great regional transport, but unfortunately we have public sector unions who strike at the drop of a hat and without a secret ballot. At night in Paris we have about 20 bus routes served by single decker busses, running minimum every 1/2 hour. The result : absolute mayhem. Taxis are nowhere to be seen and don't want to go into the suburbs. And since there is no competing mini-cab service they can do as they want. Give me London Transport anytime.
Martin, UK
Being as I only travel regularly in the UK it is hard to compare with abroad. However I do know from first hand experience that there are serious problems being mishandled by our government. And please, let's have less 'get cars off the road' nonsense, and more attention paid to how to make better use the plentiful road space that already exists (have you noticed how much inside / middle lane goes unused?) Similar thinking will do much to help the railways, busses etc.
The village I live in the Scottish borders has one bus a week.
Some others have one a month. In the whole of the Scottish borders region there
is not one railway station. Possibly the largest single area in Europe
without such a facility. Until public transport is available for all, the car shall always be
king. Where I live it is a necessity. As far as commuting goes all I can say is thank god
for the motorcycle.
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