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Thursday, 10 January, 2002, 18:55 GMT
Rail misery: Tell us your experiences
Hundreds of thousands of rail commuters are facing travel misery on Monday as the second of two 48-hour strikes goes ahead on South West Trains.
The strike started at midnight on Sunday after talks between the Rail Maritime and Transport (RMT) union and SWT failed to reach a settlement over pay and disciplinary issues. In Scotland rail commuters are also facing widespread disruption after a quarter of Scotland's train services were cancelled. ScotRail issued an emergency timetable following a ban on rest-day working by drivers involved in a pay dispute. Tell us your travel experiences. Can anything be done to improve Britain's railways? This Talking Point was suggested by Peter Vintner, Italy : Britain has some of the worst traffic congestion, possibly the worst rail and public transport services and almost the poorest health service (in all respects) in Europe. The one thing the British can't seem to get a grasp of is that these problems are largely the result of many years of under funding due to the common belief that paying taxes is a bad thing. If you have any suggestions for Talking Points, please click here. This debate is now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.
Your reaction
The commuter line between Edinburgh and glasgow is a disgrace. Even before the strike, I was late to work or home several times a week. Things have just gotten slightly worse. The fact that so much chaos can be caused by drivers simply refusing to work rest days shows the incredibly tight margins the service is working on; if the timetable can be cut by half by this action it must mean that 50% of trains are being driven by drivers working overtime. Being driven in a train by a driver who works a seven day week does not make me feel particularly safe. It is a railway being run on teh cheap and travellers or "cutomers" as we are constantly called, are paying the price in bad service, lateness, discomfort and potential danger.
So the strikes are over. My morning train was cancelled, thus I caught the earlier train which was running 45 minutes late. I am so pleased everything is back to normal!
It seems to me that many of our European partners have long taken the sane and pragmatic view that fundamental national necessities should be nurtured and developed, not kicked from pillar to post every 4/5 years as political whims dictate. No system is perfect - either tax-wise or operationally, but can we really not look and learn from what works; put something that works in place here and then leave it alone to function and develop without endless political interference. The people who know best what is required in our transport system are the people who use it and the people who work in it, not transient Government ministers.
People seem to forget that members of a union have the right to withdraw their labour (however unfortunate or inconvenient it may be for the employer or their customers) as long as they meet the legal requirements for doing so.
I commuted from Canterbury to London for 3 years of misery on trains fit only for cattle where heating failed, cleaners failed and often trains failed to turn up without any excuse forthcoming. The result from the stress of never knowing when or whether I would get to work or in the evening get home was a breakdown of my system and a diagnosis of ME. I saved my life I believe and my marriage by returning to a country where just 19 million manage to provide decent public services in a country hundreds of times larger than the UK. The only hope for Britain and the British is for the country to scrap everything that postures as a public service now and start again. Learn from the rest of the world (The British are never wrong of course) and put into practice the knowledge of civilised living that has been adopted elsewhere.
I am fed up with people like Anders, UK telling us that it is all our fault that the railways are so bad because we don't pay high enough taxes. The fact is we pay a lot of revenue in taxes plus the extortionate cost the railways add in way of ticket price. Each year their prices go up whilst their service deteriorates. In other countries they may pay higher taxes but they pay much, much lower fares. Money isn't the problem here as they get enough - its mismanagement of funds and attempting to run the railways like a business instead of a public service. No more fat-cat pay outs and proper use of funding would help. So would not spending ridiculous amounts of taxpayers money on hiring PR people.
I've got my driving test tomorrow and I hope I pass as I can't stand any more of these overcrowded, overpriced excuses for railways.
British people should refrain from whinging about their transport system until they are prepared to politically support a policy that increases taxes and specifically uses the money raised to invest in the sorely needed improvements like every other European country has done.
When it comes down to it, it really is that simple.
Andrew Torrance, Wales , UK
I'm just glad it's the south east that's being affected by these strikes. I doubt anybody would notice otherwise; and something may finally get done to sort this problem out.
I just hope that all the people who are (quite rightly) complaining in this forum remember their troubles when it comes to the next General Election. Hopefully then we can get rid of this "spinning" Blair government and as a bonus perhaps the euro as well.
Having travelled regularly on SWT for many years, I am constantly amazed at the consistency in poor performance provided. Not only are the trains regularly late, cancelled, filthy and crowded, but a total lack of concern is displayed by the vast majority of the employees. I have little sympathy for the RMT or the SWT management, as I'm sure they all believe that just turning up in the mornings is sufficient for them to receive pay rises larger than inflation, without having to exert that little extra bit of effort that might make everybody's day a lot easier.
I used to use the Reading to Waterloo branch of SWT to get to work each day. At first I was happy to take the train as it was the "greener" option. I would be helping the environment a little bit.
After two years of using South West Trains I would now happily slash and burn the Amazon rainforest if it meant never having to get on another train again!
SWT's reliability is abysmal. I firmly believe that they should not be allowed to run a Hornby train set, never mind a major rail network!
Some above have suggested building motorways on rail routes. What a good idea! Then we will have uncontrollable noise and pollution levels throughout the UK; every street in the UK will see unimaginable increases in road traffic; t would soon become impossible to cross many roads that would be solid with traffic; everyone would know someone who will have been killed or injured by caused by a massive rise in RTA's; Every city centre will grind to a complete halt -jammed with sole occupancy cars. The negatives go on and on and on.
If you increase the supply of road, you just increase the demand for cars. Studies have shown that the building of the M25 proved this beyond all reasonable doubt.
Also can anyone tell me where all these cars would park?
Perhaps we could demolish thousands of houses to build 20 storey car parks? And what will happen when oil runs dry ? Electric cars? I'm amazed that in the 21st century such a retrograde idea could even be considered in such a densely packed urbanised country such as the UK. But there again with the UK's recent history on and attitude towards transport, it does not surprise me.
Rod Maxwell, Scotland
It's not received much coverage, but some rail fares into London are going to be cut this month - 25% Dorking-Kingston weekly ticket with the Seldom Working Train Co.
My railway has been on strike for the last 35 years. Or doesn't it count as a strike when the management stop the service and dismantle the track? If those of you around London who took our trains away don't like your trains and railways anymore then we'll have them here in Scotland. We'd even put up with the occasional strike if it meant we could get to work in a civilised fashion most days.
That's it South West trains! You can keep them.
We as a family are going back to the car for commuting as of tomorrow.
You will get no more custom from this family again.
Hopefully many others will see that strikes cost jobs in the long run.
Laura, England
The current strike action by RMT members is selfish and irresponsible. A lot of people lost their jobs after 11 Sept - the RMT union members are lucky to have jobs to strike from.
Their action has a huge knock on effect on other people who are not involved in their conflict. I am self-employed and if I can't get to a client I don't earn the income.
I have every sympathy for the staff of South West Trains. They are, after all, working for a Stagecoach company - a private company which puts profits higher on the list than staff pay.
If the people of the UK weren't so set in their ways and always waiting for someone else to sort things out I would seriously consider setting up a national day of action - a day where no-one uses the trains and books a day off work. It would bring the country to a standstill, but that is what is needed to show the train companies and the Government that the people of the UK are a tad upset about the state public transport has been allowed to slip into.
Gillian, UK
Being a nurse I think the RMT employers are selfish and inconsiderate. Their offered pay rise is much better than the nurses and yet we don't strike. How would they feel if they needed medical assistance and were told we were on strike because we didn't like our uniform (God knows we don't!) They should be grateful of a pay rise and stop whinging. Because of them my husband has to stay up in London and is missing seeing his daughter, so I hope they are proud of themselves. The RMT workers should stop taking their disputes out on the workers and be more considerate to those who keep them employed, the passengers!
When the new high speed line from Paris to the South of France was opened a few years ago, a British journalist asked the French transport minister why he though our rail system is so poor. His answer was simple: "Because you try to make money out of it." His point was that you cannot run an efficient, reliable and attractive rail service and expect to turn a profit. Until any government, Labour, Conservative or otherwise is prepared to deal with the problem head on and accept the need for enormous and permanent subsidies, then we will still have a pathetic rail system for the next 100 years.
I live in Manchester. Some months ago I went to a concert in Sheffield, a direct connection on the Trans-Pennine express. Getting there was fine. On the return journey though, the train dragged itself, in fits and starts, into the peak district before conking out at a tiny village called Dore. We were told to get off the train which then slugged off back the way it had come. We waited in the darkness at this tiny place until a renovated tram showed up, filled with drunks. This was our transport home. No apology was given. The staff were rude to those who complained and the complaints desk in Manchester (a prefab shed) had a massive queue (it was now well after midnight!) and I was too tired and fed up even to formally tell the train company that they were the worst, most incompetent and downright offensive outfit I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Surely the nationalised railways were never this utterly dreadful?
Michael, UK
Having come from various countries where public transport is virtually non existent, I have always held the British transport system in high regard. However, I still do not understand how people working in services that are so heavily relied upon by a significantly large section of the general public are allowed to simply strike and halt these services. It doesn't make sense!
I commute every day from Cambridge to London. I cannot remember the last time when my train left on time, departed from the usual platform, arrived on time, and was the correct length.
The delays now are as bad, if not worse, than they were post-Hatfield. Worse still, nobody ever tells the staff what is going on, so they are unable to tell us.
Come on guys, you've got information technology equipment - what do you think it's for?
I commuted for 4 years. In the end I gave up my job in the City because of SWT. I got a job nearer home for less pay. I bought myself a car and I use the M25 daily. I love it! I haven¿t been on a train since and I don¿t think I ever will again.
Simon, UK
I travel everyday from Chippenham to Reading, a journey time of about 1 hour. For this privilege I pay about £350 a month.
In 1 week, I had over 5 hours of delays. One cancellation because they did not have enough drivers, and 2 further delays for faulty trackside equipment. This level of service is not a one-off problem, it is a regular occurrence. Why have all other European countries got a public service infrastructure that works? Why do they pay less taxes?
We have had successive Governments that have ignored the railways, the roads, the buses, etc. They have used the huge sums of money raised from Petrol and road taxes to prop up tax-cuts (just before elections) and the Health Service.
LONG TERM investment is needed. Ask the French and Germans, they are coming to the end of 20 year plans for their public transport and it has been an emphatic success
I moved to Hong Kong almost 2 years ago from London. One of the huge benefits of living here is that the transport system is fantastic: tubes, buses and trams run on time, are cheap, clean and reliable. There is no need to have a car here. I hope London sorts out its transport before I return - I can't bear the thought of all that commuting again.
Simon, UK/Finland
When I lived in various countries in continental Europe I never owned a car. A month after moving to the UK I went out and bought one. I would happily use buses and trains if I could rely on them, but I can't.
Furthermore, I went into central London with a friend before Christmas. If I hadn't come with her she wouldn't even have made it on the train. One of us had to carry the baby and the other one fold together the pram to get on the train. And don't even consider using public transport in London. We travelled to Waterloo and at the end of the day we were at Marble Arch, our feet killing us. But it's impossible to get on the tube or the buses with a pram so we had to walk back down to Waterloo.
We pay incredible amounts in road tax and fuel tax. But we still have the worst roads and public transport system in Europe. Where does the money go?
After seeing the interview with Vernon Hince of the RMT it is clear that this institution deserves no public sympathy whatsoever. In a thoroughly unconvincing display when questioned on London South-East, it is clear that a political power struggle is a far more likely reason than any other for adopting a strike first and ask questions afterwards approach.
The history of the people involved, as Philip K states, the dispute is clearly politically motivated. The Express reported that the union official concerned is a member of the Socialist Worker party who was thrown out of Labour.
The Government's ten year plan for transport was a step in the right direction, however after recent events it urgently needs an update.
The recent documentary on Channel 4 showed that the problem of rail are political, a huge amount of resources are spent deciphering "contract interfaces" and reaching a consensus across the different train companies and regulators. This is something that people in the rail industry have to work to improve, and not damage any confidence the public still has in rail travel by striking. If the SWT train crew want a pay increase they will have to work constructively with their employers to improve the service, or at least make it much clearer than they have done in media interviews why they are on strike.
I think that the idea of a Consumer Rail Boycott on March 1st suggested elsewhere on this site is a good one to pursue on the lines of a fuel campaign, even if season ticket holders have already paid. Any losses that the railway companies suffer will then hopefully be passed on to their RMT employees who have been to make us suffer. I would also like to see published the details of the safety breaches that have caused the suspension of the RMT employees from driver duty. As we are being brought into the dispute we should also be able to judge for ourselves how insignificant these are (at least as far as the RMT is concerned), especially with heightened safety concerns that the industry is now facing.
I have been living in the US for a short while and when I took a trip back to the UK I, personally, was very impressed with the state of things. I live in Houston Texas and I envy the infrastructure of British communities that have everything that I could want in a place. The problem is, as it was with me, the British seem to not understand that they need high fuel tax and others to maintain such a high standard of life rather than a high standard of material possession.
It is grossly insensitive of the RMT to strike over a very attractive pay offer when hundreds of workers in the South East are being made redundant.
I like so many others this year will receive a 0% pay rise and just get on with it. If there were an alternative to travelling on the trains RMT members would find their very livelihoods threatened as well as thousand would desert this appalling travesty of a "service".
I am really surprised that the train companies and unions haven't been shut down already. They have a total monopoly over the people that use their lines. Their trains are always late, dirty, smelly and overcrowded. I cant count how many times I have seen people being packed into trains like sardines...this must be illegal. What I couldn't believe was that they let me buy my ticket and when I got to a SWT station it was closed and I had no choice but to go home having an asthma attack on the way. Imagine what it must have been like for the elderly! Doubt they care - the staff are as bad as the owners and government and only interested in lining their own pockets. How many strikes happen outside the rail industry - not many.
We had one of the first rail networks and it looks like it is still locked in the past.
1) World's fourth largest economy:
2)World's worst public transport.
I travelled into work by car this morning. Yes I had to leave home earlier than usual, but I was in a clean, warm environment, was able to listen to the radio, and I know that when I leave work tonight I won¿t be standing on a cold station platform waiting for a train that¿s invariably 20 minutes late. God bless the RMT, I say, I think they've shown me the way forward!
Last year, the trains were so bad that one day I got into work at 5:30, half an hour before the office shuts. Since then I have stopped commuting...
Why is it that the rail unions are the only unions in the UK which manage to find some reason to strike at least once per year (and usually more frequently)? Do they seriously think that their grievances against their employers are more serious than those of other workers, who don't feel the need to strike at every available opportunity? If so, they should test out their argument with nurses, teachers and others who work in key service professions, but who regard industrial action as a last resort, rather than an annual requirement.
Quentin Reese, USA
As a commuter, the state of the railways makes me enormously angry and sad. Last year, I lived in Portugal, which is one of the poorest countries in the EU, yet has an efficient and affordable rail network. The difference is, of course, government subsidisation. Prescott and Byers have never really had to face up to their failure to deliver the transport reforms promised in 1997. Commuters must be prepared to act - how about a nationwide high-profile effort to pressure the government for change?
The RMT has been offered, and refused, a 15% rise over three years, and a two hour cut in the working week. And yet still they strike. That's more of a raise than many if not most people get. Time to grow up RMT members. Start working on improving the service or you'll end up with no job at all.
I purchased a weekly travel ticket on Wednesday. I don't use it at the weekends, but it is more expensive to buy 5 daily tickets. I was not informed that there would be no service on which to use my ticket for 4 of the 7 days it is valid for as I paid up. Add that to the weekend and that's 6 out of 7 days I will not be able to use the ticket. South West Trains' Customer "Helpline's" response to this when I asked them? Tough, we don't give refunds on weekly tickets. How much longer can this be allowed to go on? By the way, I hope you're enjoying your holiday in the sun, Mr Byers. It was several below freezing at the bus stop for thousands of us this morning.
Strike? I wish they'd just dismantle the whole railway system and dump it all in the North Sea...the rail system can't get much worse.
Simon Soaper, England
I'm thankful I have a friend who lives by a tube line who I could stay with to avoid this madness. Otherwise I would have had no choice but to stay at home today and tomorrow and as I'm currently temping, that means I wouldn't have been paid for two days through no fault of my own. Would SWT compensate me for my loss of earnings? (Collapse onto floor in fit of laughter). And all this coming from the worst train service in this country. Looks like us commuters are damned if the trains do run (late, overcrowded, inadequately heated, dirty, smelly) or damned if they don't (can't get to work).
Ben Drake, York, UK
Having lived and commuted in Bombay, it is not exaggerating to say our railways are close to resembling a Third World system. There seem to be two problems - a chronic lack of investment, both now and in the past and exceptionally poor management. When fares are so high and service is so terrible - what's encouraging us to use public transport? Sort it out - it's an embarrassment!
C S, UK
It's not all bad - try the Chiltern line - modern trains and mostly on time - but then it's a simpler line and less busy than some.
I phoned the SWT enquiries line last night and the person who answered advised that the trains were running on time from my station. I asked if he was sure and was stupid enough to believe him, and it took me three hours to get to work. SWT need to re-train their staff. Thank God my employers are understanding.
Jane, UK
My mother attempted to travel from Birmingham to Cornwall yesterday. The train arrived over an hour late, there was no heating, buffet or functional toilets! She was given erroneous information about her connecting train and arrived too late to catch it. She was then forced to wait over an hour for a further connecting train to arrive and eventually arrived exhausted, freezing cold and extremely late. And that was after splashing out on a first class ticket, hoping for some comfort and a pleasant journey!
The service on my route is run by two different operators: Centro, whose trains are filthy and slow and Chiltern Railways which are newer, cleaner, quieter, more spacious and quicker. The reason for the discrepancies is simple: money. Chiltern runs the Birmingham to London route, surely hugely profitable. Centro runs Leamington Spa to Birmingham, less so one would assume. The Chiltern train proves that with good finance in place you get good service. Some of the rail operators will invest in services, where it is profitable. Certain routes will simply have to be subsidised, like they do in the rest of Europe.
Shawn, England
Do rail services really believe that passengers would take the overpriced, dirty, undependable trains if they had any other means of transport? I now take a bus to work which takes longer and is less convenient timing but at least it is reliable, comfortable and costs an eighth of the price.
The fact that these strikes always happen immediately before or after bank holidays shows the real motivation behind them. Part of the problem with the railways is, I'm afraid, the quality of the staff who either fail to arrive for work or pass confusing and erroneous travel information to the public. Scrap the RMT and the totally undemocratic right to strike and watch the railways improve.
Gareth Griffiths, UK Cars pollute and clog the roads; trains in this country are awful. Why aren't we tolling the use of major and inner-city roads and putting the money toward the trains?
KC, UK
I don't remember anyone at SWT giving us sufficient warning of these strikes although last night at Waterloo they were 'assuring' me they had informed us. It's like they are holding us to ransom. We rely on the trains and many of us PAY IN ADVANCE for the 'service'. I am amazed this is legal when it is a public service. It's bad enough they can't cope with leaves, snow, sun and rain but when they are allowed to do this to the public out of choice, it makes you wonder who, if anyone, is in control. If I did this at my company, they would rightly sack me - and we got a 0% rise this year!
Tel, UK
Having been made redundant last year I am doing temporary work at the moment, which isn't paid when I can't put hours on a timesheet - and I still have a mortgage to pay. How about the RMT Union paying compensation to the many people in my position?
Quite frankly travelling from Wimbledon to Waterloo the service was better than normal - the 0832 fast to Waterloo came in on time, which you can't do during normal rush hour travelling.
Alan Lawson, UK
Get rid of all train tracks and replace them with double decker motorways, at least then we can decide to be late for work and in the comfort of our own vehicle.
Bernard, UK
It is about time the commuter took action. We need to organise a mass boycott of fare paying as it seems that only money talks: fight fire with fire.
KC, England
We need to stop whinging about the train service. The country voted for governments throughout the 70's and 80's that practically boasted about their disdain for public transport and their intention to run it down - it's too late now to say we wished they hadn't. Nothing can be done in the short term to improve the entire network - it's too complicated and the results of new investment and new plans take at least a decade to bear fruit. In the long term we can agree an investment plan over the next 30 years to repair the damage of the last 30. In the short term we need to run fewer trains to allow more time to fix, upgrade and improve the infrastructure. Fewer trains mean a more even spread of passengers over the entire day to avoid more overcrowding. How to achieve this is where a lot of creative thinking is required.
SWT commuters now understand what RMT stands for: Rude Moronic Twits. The service we receive on the Weybridge to Staines service is normally worse than a Third World nation.
Gordon, UK
What annoyed me most about today's chaos was the lack of advance warning about the strike, and the lack of information regarding alternative routes. The ticket office in Vauxhall tube station was shut (as usual), and the two members of staff on duty had no information on alternative routes - one didn't seem to have heard of Staines. I'm all in favour of workers making a stand if their pay and conditions are unsatisfactory - but isn't it about time commuters did the same? We're paying way too much for train travel, and the conditions under which we travel to work are offensive and often dangerous. I agree with Gordon - let's have a fare strike.
Luckily my line to Reading is shared by both SWT and Thames Trains. Thank goodness for competition. The Thames Train came on time and was emptier than normal.
I left home at 7.00 am and finally managed to squeeze my way onto a train around 8.05. I was cold, tired, had had no breakfast and was rather dangerously pressed against the train door. I have another three days of this to put up with. I think I'll have to find a job closer to home that doesn't involve using public transport - I can't cope anymore!
ED, UK
I try and catch the 8:23 from Putney to Waterloo. In the last six months I would say that it has arrived on time on average one out of ten times. The amount of strikes occurring on the tubes let alone the overland trains is a joke. Many of the people in my office will just stay at home when a strike is on because they have no other way to get in.
For two years (1999-2000) I travelled to work by train. I spent many hours waiting on cold, dirty platforms for trains that were either late or cancelled. The service is awful and I think the railways should all be closed, ripped up and tarmacked for public use.
Caroline, UK
From my point of view, the strikes can only help make companies move out of the South East into an area where affordable housing is available.
The trains I travel on, even the supposed new ones are dirty, smelly and I rarely get a seat. Even though my journey is only 25 mins, I'm rarely on time and have been up to 2 hours late in the past year. Luckily the place I work at understands and are OK about it as long as I make the time up.
I registered about 15 complaints before giving up because I always got the same reply, lack of rolling stock, lack of funds to purchase more rolling stock, lack of staff or, when desperate, it's all Railtrack's fault. Yet prices continue to go up. I'd buy a car and drive in if I could afford that luxury, but just think how many people with cars would switch to trains if they were a decent alternative?
Antony, UK
Fining the rail companies for poor service makes no sense at all, as the people, the taxpayers, are both collecting and paying the fine! The fines should be levied directly on the RMT union members and I guarantee the quality of service would improve overnight!
To Phil, UK; I think you will find that the "huge swathes" of commuters understand perfectly well what the RMT are about. If working for the railway is so awful, go work somewhere else. The pay deal on offer is better than anything many "selfish" commuters will be getting. Year on year rail workers cause massive disruption and misery for little cost on their part. Does is really come as a surprise that assults on staff are on the increase? I'm amazed that so many passengers manage to keep their tempers. After years of travelling on the train I too am considering changing jobs simply to avoid the daily misery of it. Happy day when trains are run by robots!
Phil, UK - Why should "selfish" commuters look any further than getting to work on time? Many commuters and businesses are now suffering having already paid for a service they are unable to receive because Union members are unable to sort out their own problems in-house. Maybe if union members were less "selfish", they would see that THEIR actions are causing huge delays and costs to other workers all over the South.
Phil, UK
I think that the train system will not be having problems over the next 48 hours - it will be the roads. This morning it took me a whopping one hour 30 minutes to do a three mile journey!! And I never catch the train usually, I always drive. Thank you RMT!
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