| You are in: Talking Point | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Tuesday, 8 May, 2001, 11:28 GMT 12:28 UK
Should doctors take industrial action?
![]() Up to a hundred surgeries across the UK may close today as
part of an unofficial protest being staged by GPs.
The national doctors 'Day of Action' has been organised by Doctor Magazine, who say that 8 out of 10 doctors would quit the NHS if they could. Doctors want to publicise their demands for thousands of new recruits, longer consultation time and shorter hours. But the British Medical Association, which represents doctors, has dubbed the action inappropriate and it has been condemned by the head of the NHS Confederation. Should doctors take industrial action? Are they justified in their actions? Have you been witness to an overworked doctor? This debate is now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.
Your reaction
In common with Education, the biggest problem of the NHS is not under-funding or whinging staff but the sorry fact of being a political football. Education, health and the police are far too important to be left in the hands of politicians who are more concerned with sound bites and the next election than with the real needs of the people of this country
When we consider the sheer and utter decimation that was our NHS when this Labour government came to power, I think it is a miracle that we have been able to recruit 17,000 more nurses and over 5,000 more doctors, And no-one is saying that it is in an ideal situation but it is certainly better than it was four years ago. I do not hold with all this doom and gloom over our NHS, it IS improving and it will continue to improve if the current investment is sustained, a little fact the Conservatives will not tell you when they plan £8 billion in tax cuts.
Doctors stop decrying our NHS you are frightening our patients.
Without putting to fine a point on it I am a senior nurse with over 30 years experience, perhaps the doctor that said nurses work a 35 hour week and get paid overtime could point me in that direction, because I certainly do not get either.
GPs have a reasonable case, but it does not have to be proved we know it and it certainly will not help GPs case if they take industrial action placing peoples lives at risk.
Do it the right way
TALK not STRIKE, if you cannot manage this then by all means hand in your notice and I hope it is accepted.
Sara B, UK
I don't think anyone here has suggested that taxes should go up to fund the NHS. Nor has anyone taken on board the point that PK (England) makes that GP's are not salaried employees but running small businesses. The solution to some of their problems must therefore be in their own hands. We all make choices; but some people have more choice than others, especially the educated ones who become doctors (or IT managers!). If you're a miner, you go on strike because you've no other choice. But a doctor?
The entire NHS is overworked and underpaid, and needs the support that recent governments have been seemingly unwilling to give it. What kind of a country do we live in when people are refused medication because "it's too expensive"?
Sam, UK
Yes they should take industrial action. The service they provide is poor and that is due to the way in which the public have been encouraged to expect total access. For me the best way to get the service improved is to charge a nominal sum of say £10 per visit which patients must pay - that would cut down the number of patients and help pay for the service.
Any GPs who want to come to help us in Canada are very welcome. We are severely underdoctored in most areas. Doesn't sound as though it has improved much since I left for Canada!
We should remember one firm principle of labour, that every worker reserves the right to withdraw his or her labour at ANY time. If you need to improve conditions, then fight for these improvements.
Phil W, UK - currently in the USA
I have worked in the NHS for over 25 yrs as a nurse, midwife, and General Practice Nurse and now work in management on 'the other side of the fence'.(Hoping to get other managers to listen to how IT REALLY IS- and realising they do not want to know)These experiences allow me to say with much authority that many Doctors have worked for years doing a job they love working long hours with little or no financial or human resource support from managers who can only see the balance sheet at the end of March. Managers do not give one damn about the individual patient that Doctors have to deal with daily because they never have to see them or face the reality of dealing with someone who needs help and who could be helped, but cannot be, because of bad management and inadequate funding their hand are tied. Much money is spent on monitoring their performance and having others who monitor them and on and on it goes...a lot of wasted money that should be invested in patient care.
I am a Consultant Surgeon in my 40s, and work five 10-12 hour days per week for the NHS, plus most Saturday mornings and in addition have on-call nights and weekends, and also frequent call backs on nights and weekends when supposed to be off-duty. Plus more and more admin work, teaching, training and outside committee work. The reward for this - not the £12.50 per hour it averages, but seeing my patients get better (usually). However, it would be nice to be able to see my growing family occasionally and to be able to afford a holiday now and again - instead of trying to keep up to date by attending conferences at my own expense.
Perhaps, EM, we and our GP colleagues should also just work shifts and be paid 'overtime' as our nursing colleagues are?
Doctors work very hard (as borne out
by the contributors who have doctors as
partners etc and
watch them work their guts out everyday),
and the Government has relied on their goodwill
for years. Well no more. Doctors should
become more militant and stop the rot
whereby a doctor's time is now
cheaper than a plumber's. If this carries on
I will leave to work in the US where a
real meritocracy means doctors are
rewarded properly. Then all the taxpayers'
money spent to train me (and many other
medical students who are worried about
their futures) will be lost to the
country. You try and tell politicians
that doctor-bashing is
not a terribly clever way of
sorting out the NHS, but it's
like banging your head against a
brick wall. Oh and EM, UK the "senior
nurse": shame on you.
I work in a busy hospital. I have TWICE fallen asleep while taking history from a patient as I was so tired working long hours repeatedly. Is this safe?
J, NHS doctor, UK
I don't understand Andy's gripe. I've worked in IT for six years now and have never been expected to work 12+ hour days as a matter of course. Yes, I've done an occasional super-day but if you're treated so badly then look for another job. You're in one of the few skilled areas where you can pick and choose.
Doctors have the right to strike like everyone else. The trouble is, whenever employees in a service industry like teaching, transport or medicine to name a few, want to air their grievances they often have to resort to industrial action before those above care to listen to them.
Cure patients.
Refuse paperwork.
Everyone but purposeless bureaucrats will be happier.
The answer is not the typical left-wing "tax the rich and spend freely". Without radical reform the extra money will only be spent on more surveys, middle management, forms to fill in and analysing the societal mix of each surgery. What is needed is less form-filling, more doctors and less managers, a flat fee to see a GP at all (even if only a notional amount) so people who go to the GP are more likely to actually have something wrong rather than wanting a free prescription for an aspirin. Basically discourage the time-wasters and provide longer slots for those that really need attention.
The NHS is in terminal decline, the real situation is that doctors are leaving the NHS in their hundreds. The government are running scared, offering small sums of money to stop doctors retiring early. The population of this country should be very worried because in 10 years time there will not be a national health service. You only need to try to find an NHS dentist or look back 10 years and you will see that medical services are going the way of dentistry and optics.
GP`s are right in their actions, after all they are only taking action to help people who cannot afford private health care to be able to obtain good quality care and decent length appointments. I think the sooner doctors leave the NHS, the sooner people will realise how good they had it and how the government agenda has always been to destroy a health service which drains money away from their war chest.
Guy Chapman, UK
On a general note we have a government in power who thinks that the electorate will put up with anything.
I'm fully behind the doctors, just as I was behind the fuel protestors; my only surprise is that a walk-out didn't happen earlier.
If our only response is the typical British retort, "Well .... what can you do?" we'll all be worked to death.
The public as a whole have the ability to show their dissatisfaction at the ballot box.
Doctors, nurses, teachers etc. in the State-run services in the UK always seem to be the ones that are whinging; perhaps it's time to start dismantling the "one-size-fits-all" bureaucracies of
the NHS, comprehensive-schools etc, and replace them by a range of smaller, private institutions that can better respond both to the needs of their customers and their employees? My doctor always has plenty of time for me, but that's because he knows my
[private] health-insurers are picking up the bill!
Lets not confuse GPs and hospital Doctors. Chris UK has already identified the problem to be 'businessman comes first', which is exactly what the vast majority of GPs are - self-employed businesspeople. I'm sure 99.9% of GPs have the best interests of patients at heart, so surely improving record-keeping and the quality of service via performance management is something they agree is essential not optional? They should be working with others in the NHS to find the time to do this, such as using more highly trained nurses and therapists. Unfortunately, for some that may cause a drop in practice income, so they lose out financially. Perhaps if more took up the option to be salaried GPs via the Personal Medical Services scheme, they'd be beter off.
Krysia, UK
Medical professionals work extremely hard and I believe they deserve more reward - financially and through greater respect in the community. We cannot take their service for granted because it is so valuable. They listen to your problems, so once in a while, take the time to listen to theirs!
I am a senior nurse with over 30 years experience. Nurses could have walked out many times due to poor pay and working conditions a hundred times worse than you GPs in your secular little surgeries, but we did not. Why? Because we put our patients first. Stop giving our profession a bad name.
Most of you do not even have to go out on call now in the night - you have locums to do it for you. So you have to fill in a bit of paper - so what? Grow up.
Charlie, England
NO question that we are overworked. I have just looked at my practice consultation rates over the last 10 years. They have risen by 85%. And the numbers seen is only a small factor because now each consultation is frequently a list instead of an item, attended by extensive record keeping, and often by many repetitive letters, investigations results and instructions from hospitals. The weight of consultation has risen 3-4 fold.
The NHS has run on the goodwill of its doctors for decades. It used to be the case that junior doctors were overworked but with seniority or going into general practice, things became a little easier. Now there is no let-up until retirement.
Good luck to them, there comes a time when enough is enough, and that time is now.
Frank, Australia
I understand the doctors' frustration at the shortage in resources and the long work hours. However, I don't understand how these well educated people think that taking industrial action is going to solve the problems.They need to stop moaning and get on with it. Everyone has to work hard.
Doctors slave away for many years in medical school, then as junior doctors with little pay or appreciation. In other careers, little training is needed before people are paid very high salaries. Doctors work every day saving lives, or at least improving them, and it is ironic that cigarette companies, for instance, who make their business endangering people's health, should be paid so much more. Doctors deserve better pay and better working conditions. No-one wants to be treated by a tired doctor, and it is unfair on the doctor and their families. I am not in a medical profession but would like my health in the hands of someone who is happy to be helping.
Absolutely not! Doctors perform an
essential service. If they go out on
strike, people in dire need of surgeries
or life-saving medical procedure will
die or be crippled for life. Strikes
should not be allowed in essential
services. I quote Calvin Coolidge,
US President in the 1920s, who said: "There is no
right against the public safety by
anybody, anywhere, any time."
My GP retired a few months ago. When I visited her I was made to feel like I was a hindrance. No time was spent with me and I was railroaded out of the surgery as soon as possible. She failed to even acknowledge that I had asthma! I believed that this was simply because she was overworked. My new GP is friendly, spends time with me, is very helpful and knowledgeable. Totally different to my previous GP even though she works in the same surgery with the same conditions. Pay should be linked to performance just as in most other industries. A customer satisfaction survey should also form an element of GPs' salaries.
The plight of doctors and teachers is a consequence of the 'businessman comes first' attitude, where the interests of those actually doing the work are worth nothing compared to the fat-cat bureaucrats in charge. Unfortunately, I don't believe anything short of industrial action will alert people to the abysmal working conditions forced onto these people by a government whose primary interest is the businessman.
I'm married to a surgeon. He is at work by 7.30am and leaves at 7pm. When he is on call (once every 5 days) he has to stay in the hospital, often operating during the night as well as the next day. He is shouted at by patients who are angry at being kept waiting. He's shattered when he comes home and just falls asleep. His basic pay is less than mine as a senior nurse. Why does he do it? He's beginning to wonder.
I totally support the GPs, and wish the BMA would find a backbone and support the doctors.
Sha, UK
I think it's fair enough for the doctors to protest but it would have been far better for them to set a specific day for the protest, saying they were not taking appointments on that date, rather than have people turning up for appointments they made weeks beforehand.
Andy, I see you choose to work long hours as an IT manager. If you make a mistake a computer might crash. If a doctor gets it wrong someone's life might be ruined
Sharon Chitty, England
I am a GP at the end of my tether. Everything is dumped on us, always with the expectation that we will pick up the pieces uncomplainingly. Patients must not suffer! This justifies the Labour Government treating us like bonded slaves. Multiple new management initiatives hardly thought out, oppress and waste so much valuable time; time which could be spent on longer consultations. It may not seem so, but there is a massive amount of stress among us doctors, and our dedicated staff. The extra money promised to GPs never reaches us, but is creamed off by debt-ridden hospitals. We need help, not the punishment being meted out by power-hungry politicians.
I think the Government should make doctors who are educated in Britain and who gain their qualifications in this country work only for the NHS for at least ten years. That way we will not lose out on the training required for new doctors.
The politicians should strike for a day. We wouldn't miss them.
I'm a doctor who left the NHS to work in research. I love it! Doctors should be included in European working hours legislation (they are currently excluded) and work 35 hours per week. Why not? We all deserve a life, and my message to doctors who don't like the NHS is simple - leave it. Don't just whinge. Market forces will then dictate that the system is changed - big time.
William Croft, UK I am a GP and feel the system cannot cope with the ever increasing demands made on it. We are criticised for not offering the service the patients have been told is available. There is a gap between expectations and reality. If reality is to be met then more doctors will be required. This unfortunately will take not only money but time. It takes at least nine years to train a GP and there are none available off the shelf. If Society wants an efficient service will well doctors it may have to dig deep into its pockets.
I don't even know who my GP is supposed to be. Each time I make an appointment to go to the doctors I have to wait 10-14 days for an appointment, I never see the same GP and I end up cancelling the appointment and turning up as an emergency as it is the only way I can get treated. GPs might as well take industrial action - it's not like we get to see them anyway, so what's one more day?
Pete, UK
Tired and overworked doctors can cost lives.
Andy, UK, you've worked 16 days in a row, long days too. You're tired. You make a mistake. What happens? Some backups get deleted. Perhaps a machine crashes. A company somewhere loses some money. If you're a doctor, it could be you inject the wrong drug, or you miss the obvious symptom of some disease. Perhaps someone dies as a result. In any case, I fail to see why, in 2001, anyone has to work 16 long days in a row and be on call 24 hours a day. Do people have lives outside work or what?
Doctors are like teachers in many ways. As soon as anyone starts looking at their performance, they start complaining like mad. Most GP's don't even have to do out of hour visits as they refuse to come out unless you're dying.
John, UK Of course GPs are right to make their case heard. It's unrealistic to expect anyone to consistently work such long hours. And yes, we do get the NHS we pay for - time to raise direct taxes to pay not just for proper health care, but also other social services.
Dr Sion Williams, UK
It's Tuesday, I've just worked sixteen days without a break. I start at 7:30 and usually finish around 6:30. I am on call 24 hours a day from the UK and the Far East. What am I? A doctor? No I'm an IT manager. Doctors grow up, we all have to work hard, there's nothing special about you.
As long as the middle class in middle England keep wanting their tax cuts we will never be able to afford the NHS or the schools we need.
Charlotte Allen, UK
I've been struck by the absence of any interviews with a government health minister on UK news bulletins. If the Government believes there is no problem they should say so; if they accept there is one, they should say what they propose doing about it.
Most doctors do not want to take industrial action because they are more concerned about the effect this will have on their patients. However the Government has increased patient expectations without providing the resources to meet them. There have been numerous initiatives including revalidation, clinical governance, national service frameworks but no extra time for doctors or nurses to take stock of the changes and develop accordingly. Unfortunately the Government notices that we are too soft and takes advantage by piling on more work. Any credit goes to the Government and any criticism for failure to meet these standards to GPs and nurses!
S. Messenger, UK
The pressure doctors are under is reflected in the service they give to their patients. I have to wait 10 days to see my GP about a condition for which I am being treated but which has worsened.
We cannot predict when we are going to become ill and in many cases the condition is very much worse by the time we are able to see our GPs.
We prosecute lorry drivers who work less hours than doctors because they can fall asleep at the wheel and might kill someone. Why should doctors who make life and death decisions have to work more hours than this. Something is fundamentally wrong here.
Tom Bradley, England
If the medical profession was a little less arrogant and a little more respectful of the people they serve, I'd have more sympathy for them. As it is, I think they should get a reality check.
Yes, I think that they are entirely justified in what they are doing. I am engaged to a junior hospital doctor (i.e. doctor in training) and have seen the number of hours that they have to work. Imagine, working a whole day hard at work (and that may mean over 12 hours), and then coming home tired, but also being on-call. You may be telephoned at any time in the next 12 hours, you may even be called back into work! I think that all professionals have a right to a social/ private life. If the teachers can demand a 35 hour week, what about the doctors?
I once went to A&E in acute pain, and was seen by a doctor who had been on duty for 36 hours. He diagnosed a trivial condition and went off-duty to be replaced by a fresh doctor, who immediately conducted tests, diagnosed correctly and admitted me to hospital forthwith. The reassurance of knowing that an alert doctor and a hospital bed are available in an emergency is worth its weight in gold.
Good luck to the doctors in improving their conditions, though even immediately increasing our allocation of GDP devoted to the Health Service wouldn't help if doctors can't be recruited or facilities can't be built overnight.
But then, how long have doctors been complaining about their working conditions?
Doctors need a pay cut not a pay rise!
John B, UK
If firemen can strike I don't see why doctors can't do the same. Either action puts lives at risk. However if anyone suffers as a result of this they will soon lose public sympathy.
I agree that they get a rough deal and I am sure they appreciate the risk they will be taking if they strike.
Surely everyone has the right to fair working hours and conditions, particularly in Britain where we currently work the longest hours in Europe? I admit that I find it annoying that on the rare occasions I would like a doctor's appointment I have to book days in advance. However the solution to this is not to work our doctors to death but to reduce the number of visits by those in the community with hypochondria, of which there are many in the Midlands!
What else are you supposed to do when nobody listens?
|
See also:
Internet links:
The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites
Other Talking Points:
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Links to more Talking Point stories
|
|
|
^^ Back to top News Front Page | World | UK | UK Politics | Business | Sci/Tech | Health | Education | Entertainment | Talking Point | In Depth | AudioVideo ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To BBC Sport>> | To BBC Weather>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- © MMIII | News Sources | Privacy |
|