Discussion transcript

On the Politics Show, Sunday 28 June 2009, Jon Sopel chaired a discussion with John Mann, MP and Douglas Carswell, MP

JON SOPEL: Joining me now is the Conservative MP Douglas Carswell and from Labour, John Mann. John Mann, why shouldn't MPs have other jobs.

JOHN MANN: Because there's enough work to do and it's well paid enough with one job and a lot of these second jobs are cash for access, it's private companies using MPs, it's insider trading of information and contacts and it stops MPs like me actually getting a fair access cos we're competing with people who are being paid and backed up by private companies. It's wholly unethical and damaging to governance.

JON SOPEL: Yeah, but when you've got someone like Paul Beresford who practises as a dentist at weekends, because he was a trained dentist before he came in to parliament, isn't that a good thing.

JOHN MANN : Well I'm surprised he can find the hours cos I certainly - I've turned down second jobs, consultancies offered, on good money, because it's hard enough doing the job properly, with the hours available and what we need is politicians doing the job properly, attending parliament, participating in the debates and representing their constituents, not moonlighting with second jobs.

JON SOPEL: Okay, Douglas Carswell, given the public anger there has been over expenses, isn't it just incredible to argue that MPs should be able to bolster their earnings as well, with second jobs.

DOUGLAS CARSWELL: I think the rottenness that we have in the Westminster system doesn't come from the fact that some politicians have outside interests, it comes from the fact that we're governed by a class of professional full-time politicians, who know nothing other than politics and who are totally beholden to the Party Whips and the Party system. Abolishing outside interests would make all MPs totally beholden to the Party Whips, it would stamp down, clamp down, remove the scope for independent minded law makers, citizen law makers, holding government to account in the knowledge that politics isn't the be all and end all in life, they're not financially dependent upon their party machines and they can do something else. It's vital we have that.

JON SOPEL: Douglas Carswell, isn't the problem though that if you look at the list of sort of what, you know, your fellow Conservative MPs are doing, none of them are kind of acting as I don't know, part time hospital cleaners, part time hospital porters, part time social workers, it's to be on the Board, they're making - what the statement is is, we want to earn more money.

DOUGLAS CARSWELL: Sure, and that's why the reforms that we need to embrace, need to make sure that more people are citizen law makers who have a second job as a midwife or a teacher. I mean I think it would be a pretty cool political system where you could be a midwife and a law maker and you could combine the two, that would surely mean that you had the right sort of people holding government to account, rather than you know, frankly a parliament of full time political hacks, you know who are beholden to the Party Whips. We need more independent minded law makers and the only way we can achieve this I think is by making sure that reform allows more citizen law makers. If we have purely full time professional politicians, they're never going to be able to stand up to their party hierarchies.

JON SOPEL: John Mann, hasn't he just described your political career. I mean you know, from sort of NUS days, Labour students, through to Head of Research at the AEU, National Training Officer TUC, Liaison Officer, National Trade Union and Labour Party 1995 to 2000, etc.

JOHN MANN: I think you've missed out the fact I set up a business from my own garage, a real business, that turned in to a very successful business and I don't, I've plenty of outside interests and that's one of them and I'm one of the few people who's been in real business and I tell you, you don't need to keep having moonlighting jobs to bring that real world experience into parliament and just last week I fought an industrial tribunal and won it for someone else, bringing outside interests … (interjection)

JON SOPEL: Okay.

JOHN MANN: We don't need moonlighting MPs.

JON SOPEL: Douglas Carswell.

DOUGLAS CARSWELL: John is a wonderfully independent minded MP and we need more people like John, but the fact is that all those ex ministers that clutter up the House of Commons, who used to do two or three days job as a Minister, prove that you can actually combine being an efficient Member of Parliament with something else, I just don't want the second jobs to be exclusively working for the government on the payroll, what about having a few people who have second jobs in the real world.

JON SOPEL: John Mann, don't you end up with just grey apparatchiks who are kind of creatures of the party system, if their only source of income, their only interest in the world, is being a Member of Parliament.

JOHN MANN: Well I'm no grey apparatchik and I represent my constituents and ferociously so and to do that, you need the time to do so. And what we don't want is cash for access, these ex Ministers and others, getting jobs in order to use their contacts, in order to feather their own nest and allow private business to …(interjection) …

JON SOPEL: Okay, Douglas Carswell, very briefly.

DOUGLAS CARSWELL: If you ban outside interests, you're going to have a parliament of Whips Office patsies. We're almost there. I think we need to change it and we need to make sure that instead of a parliament of Whip's Office patsies, we have a parliament of ordinary citizens who are representative of us in every way.

JON SOPEL: Okay, lively debate. It will carry on. Very good to speak to you both. Douglas Carswell, John Mann, thanks very much for being with us here on the Politics Show.

END OF DISCUSSION

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The Politics Show Sunday 12 July 2009 at 12:00 GMT on BBC One.

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