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Page last updated at 14:59 GMT, Sunday, 20 April 2008 15:59 UK

Mayoral debate transcript

Boris Johnson, Ken Livingstone and Brian Paddick

On the Politics Show, Sunday 20 April 2008, Jon Sopel interviewed Boris Johnson, Ken Livingstone and Brian Paddick.

Interview transcript

JON SOPEL: Just before we came on air the three main candidates joined me here in the studio and on this, the 40th anniversary of Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' speech, immigration seemed an obvious starting point. Boris Johnson, London is one of the most cosmopolitan, diverse cities in the world, but do you think there has been too much immigration in to this City in recent years?

BORIS JOHNSON: I think the amazing thing about Enoch Powell's predictions of 'rivers of blood', is how actually they have failed to come true in London and what a magnificent example of diversity and tolerance and cosmopolitanism this city is. I do think there is an issue with uncontrolled immigration and let's be absolutely clear, I think the government's failure to count properly and to fund London Boroughs properly, means that are there huge numbers of people in London that the government doesn't acknowledge and doesn't give London boroughs sufficient funding for.

JON SOPEL: The question was, has there been too much immigration in recent years?

BORIS JOHNSON: There's certainly been too much uncounted and unfunded immigration in to London and that prevents huge problems for London boroughs, which have to cope with the influx and have to provide social services, mental health care services and are not getting the funding from central government. Now you've got a big issue on which the London Mayor, should be speaking out and has not spoken out.

JON SOPEL: Ken Livingston, your old friend Trevor Philips from the Equality & Human Rights Commission, says this morning that lack of control has led to a racial cold war between different groups?

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Well not here in London. I mean if you actually look, racial incidents in London, anti-Semitic incidents are down by about half over the last eight years. Last year they dropped 14% in London; they went up 12% outside and I, I can't speak for the rest of the country but I do think here in London, faith-leaders, politicians have gone out of their way to make the case for tolerance and mutual respect and it's worked.

JON SOPEL: And 60% of people in a BBC poll said there had been too much immigration going on.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Well, half of all the immigrants that come to Britain, come to London, from where ever it is the world and London is the only place in Europe that matches American levels of productivity and competitiveness and I think there is a lot of dynamism in London - is it's openness is the reason so many firms come here to do business and trade is because there's host communities here; they feel at home.

JON SOPEL: And Brian Paddick, do you think that the uncontrolled immigration that Boris Johnson was talking about there has placed a big strain on public services in the capital?

BRIAN PADDICK: It has and the way that the Labour government fails to compensate local authorities, or at least there is an enormous time lag between the local authority submitting the figures and getting the appropriate funding to cope with these new immigrants is creating real issues. I think immigrants contribute an enormous amount to the wealth of London but local authorities are struggling to provide the services for these new immigrants.

JON SOPEL: Okay, Boris Johnson, let's just consider now the whole question of the diversity of the city, a city in which six hundred thousand Muslims live. How equipped are you lead this city when you have said that Islam is the most vicious sectarian of all religions?

BORIS JOHNSON: Well I think Jon, if you look at the quotation you've taken it's taken, wrenched out of context. I deeply believe that Islam is a religion of peace and when you ask how equipped am I to lead a city in which there are six hundred thousand Muslims, let me point out to you that it's almost exactly a century ago that my Muslim great-grandfather came to this city and his son got stuck in to the life of this country, in the way that I want immigrants who come to London to do and I will work (interjection)

JON SOPEL: You've said, you said I wrenched the quote out of context. Let me give you the whole quote so that it is in context and let people judge on it. You wrote this in the wake of 7/7 bombing, so when you were an MP and when you were Editor of the Spectator, you say, 'it means disposing of the first taboo and accepting that the problem is Islam. Islam is the problem. To any non Muslim reader of the Koran, Islamaphobia, fear of Islam, seems a natural reaction and indeed exactly what the text is indeed to provoke. Judged purely on its scripture, to say nothing of what is preached in the mosques, it is the most viciously, sectarian of all religions in its heartlessness".

BORIS JOHNSON: Well, it's certainly true that if you look at the texts of the Koran it is possible for people of extremist intentions and people who want to inspire evil in men's hearts, to wrench them out of context and to provoke them to evil acts and I think anybody who's seen what's happened in the world over the last few years, would be at pains to deny that and that is all I was saying. I passionately believe that Islam is a religion of peace and that the Muslim community deserve protection and support just like every other community in this city and above all they deserve to have their streets safer and their buses safer and all the public space of which the mayor is directly responsible made safer by the next mayor.

JON SOPEL: So do you take back then what you said that Islam is the problem less than three years ago?

BORIS JOHNSON: Of course I've got to say that I'm not saying Islam is itself the problem: the problem is people who wrench out of context quotes from the Holy Book of Islam, the Koran and use it to inspire evil in men's hearts and that is, I think a fact that few serious people would people would deny and we need to tackle the extremists and what we mustn't do is invite to this city, people who preach hatred and who preach division and who want to encourage the extremists and what we should be doing is reaching out to Islamic moderates, people of goodwill and trying to beat down the extremists and those who would promote division.

JON SOPEL: Ken Livingstone, is Islam the problem?

KEN LIVINGSTONE: No, I don't think so at all. There's a group around the White House who talk about a clash of civilizations and I think there's a lot of people in the American armaments industry, having seen the end of the Cold War, they're quite happy to have endless conflict in the world. I mean, you look at London, where you've got well over half a million Muslims - they live side by side with Christians and Jews, this is not a problem. We can create, I think London is a model for the world. You've got every nationality, every faith, every race and it works perfectly here.

JON SOPEL: So you don't think it's the most viciously sectarian of all religions as (interjection)

KEN LIVINGSTONE: I mean the truth is, you can go to any of the old religious books (interjection) and you'll find the sentence there, there's a lot of smiting and laying about and so on, the question is, what are the preachers saying today and whether you go in to a Christian church, a Hindu temple, Mosque or Synagogue, all of our faith leaders make the case for communicating between those faiths.

JON SOPEL: And how did it help those relations between the different communities, to invite or share a platform with Yusuf Al-Qaradawi,

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Well, Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, was distinguished by the fact that when the twin towers were destroyed in America, he appealed to Muslims round the world, to send blood, to donate blood and send it. He denounced the, the Al Qaeda, he's a strong enemy of Al Qaeda. I'd agree (interjection)

BORIS JOHNSON: (overlaps) suicide bombings and encouraged suicide bombings.


KEN LIVINGSTONE: on a lot of things, but the issue is here - I mean, are we going to support those people who are in Muslim world who are opposed to Al Qaeda and terrorism, or are we going to actually say we'll have nothing to do with anyone, unless we agree on everything.

BORIS JOHNSON: Excuse me, how does Yusuf Al-Qaradawi,, oppose terrorism by supporting suicide bombings and calling for homosexuals to be thrown off cliffs?

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Well, I'm sorry, I met the man. I questioned him myself. He made absolutely clear you must not attack homosexuals, you must obey the laws of this land, you must not strike your wife and Jews and Christians are children of God. I heard him say it with my own ears.

JON SOPEL: Brian Paddick.

BRIAN PADDICK: Ken, you keep saying this about he says you should obey the laws of the land, what that means is that if the law of the land is you're allowed to murder homosexuals, you're allowed to beat your wife, you're allowed to carry out suicide bombings, he's saying that's acceptable in those countries. What I would be saying is, that's not acceptable in any countries. What I said in the immediate aftermath of the 7th July was that the term Islamic terrorism as far as I was concerned is a contradiction in terms, in that there is nothing in the Koran to justify the murder of fifty two innocent men, women and children.

JON SOPEL: But on Al-Qaradawi, coming to this country, I mean he's - you know I've got a list of quote here. On female genital mutilation, fine, domestic violence, fine

BORIS JOHNSON: When you say 'fine', what do you mean?

JON SOPEL: If this approach fails, on domestic violence, if this approach fails, it is permissible for him, the husband, to beat her, the wife, lightly with his hands, avoiding her face and other sensitive parts and on the death penalty for homosexuals, on using children in suicide bombings, on the destruction of the Jews. I mean he's hardly promoting the racial tolerance and acceptance!

KEN LIVINGSTONE: He was admitted to this country about thirteen or fourteen times under Mrs Thatcher and John Major's governments (interjection)


KEN LIVINGSTONE: You need to let me answer the question. He's an opponent of Al Qaeda.

BORIS JOHNSON: He's a supporter of suicide bombings, child suicide bombings.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: He's, he's (interjection)


KEN LIVINGSTONE: He actually is involved in supporting the Palestinians, both sides in the Middle East have done terrible things. I condemn all acts of violence in the Middle East, you can't just be selective about this. But here's a man who's prepared to say, Al Qaeda is wrong and to be very strong in that condemnation and if we won't engage with him, then you'll be down to very, very - he represents hundreds of millions of Muslims


BRIAN PADDICK: Ken, don't you think there is enough patriot division in London as it is without importing it from abroad.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Well can I tell you this, I had to sit down and talk to the Leaders of the IRA at the height of the bombing campaign, because I believed if we could start a dialogue, it could bring an end to war. I was ten years ahead of my time. I'd say (interjection)


BRIAN PADDICK: You're drawing a parallel between somebody who advocates the murdering of homosexuals and suicide bombings with the IRA.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: I have never heard him say that and I'm not prepared (interjection)

BORIS JOHNSON: You just heard (interjection) said it yourself.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: I have only heard him say, as he said here in Britain, as he said on 'Newsnight' (interjection)

JON SOPEL: Isn't that rather plausible? I mean, isn't that rather nave to say that well, I mean these quotes are absolutely out there on you know, on children in suicide bombings, we cannot say that the casualties in Israeli suicide bombings were innocent civilians. They are not civilians or innocent. The Israelis might have nuclear bombs, but we have the children bomb.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: I agree, I don't agree with it

BORIS JOHNSON: You don't agree with it, well why did you (interjection)


BORIS LIVINGSTONE: why do you invite him to share a platform with you (interjection) Why do you (interjection)


KEN LIVINGSTONE: He came to London to oppose the French government banning young Muslim women from wearing the Hijab. He came here (interjection)

JON SOPEL: You have no regrets.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: he came here to support that freedom of choice.

JON SOPEL: You have no regrets about inviting him, sharing a platform with him?

KEN LIVINSTONE: I mean I, I think you've got to engage with Muslims. He represents the biggest strand of progressive Muslim opinion, anywhere in the world. (interjection) bitterly attacked by the Wahabi sect, the Saudi Royal family.

BRIAN PADDICK: There are plenty of other moderate Muslims that you could engage with


BRIAN PADDICK: who do not have those extreme views. You embraced this man, on the platform at City Hall. (interjection)

KEN LIVINGSTONE: I, I manage to meet all those Muslims, the difference is they represent tens of thousands, he represents hundreds of millions. He's the leading Muslim theologian talking about engaging with the West. (interjection)


JON SOPEL: Let us move on. I want to talk now about policing because that is one of the great roles of Mayor. Brian Paddick, should Sir Ian Blair stay on as Commissioner?

BRIAN PADDICK: The Metropolitan Police Authority, have considered all the evidence around Stockwell. They have looked at what Ian Blair's role is in that. They have had a vote of confidence and they have decided that he should remain as Commissioner. That is (interjection)

JON SOPEL: I want your opinion.

BRIAN PADDICK: That is their decision. I don't see any benefit in going back over that decision. What we need to do is the Commissioner and the Mayor, need to work progressively to make London safer. Let's put the past behind us. Let's move on.

JON SOPEL: You've made policing one of your central appeals as a sort of long experienced copper on the streets of London. Isn't actually that your greatest weakness because you've fallen out so badly with Sir Ian Blair, you're going to have to work hand in glove with the person who effectively brought an end to your career.

BRIAN PADDICK: Well, let's be clear about this. There was one issue, okay it was a big issue, the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell, that Ian Blair and I fell out over, over - on the 99% of other issues, we are - have a lot of common ground. We both believe that we should have a more representative police service.

JON SOPEL: Your autobiography, only just released, charts the absolute break down of that relationship and you're asking us to believe that you're going to be able to work closely with him.

BRIAN PADDICK: Well, put it this way. I met with Ian just before Christmas, the last Christmas that's just gone, after I had said what I'd said about Stockwell, after I'd left the police. After twenty five minutes of the meeting, he dismissed his note-taker. Such was the trust that we had between us (interjection)

JON SOPEL: Or such was the sulphurous exchanges, that it was probably best for the note-taker to go.

BRIAN PADDICK: Well, you know, I was in that meeting, you can ask Ian Blair, how we got on in that meeting. I believe we can work together.

JON SOPEL: Boris Johnson, where are you on Ian Blair

BORIS JOHNSON: The important thing to do from May 2nd is to work with the Commissioner as I will, by Chairing the Metropolitan Police Authority, to get more police out on the beat. There are eight hundred police in Camden, of whom only eighty are out on the street at any one time. What we need is a mayor who will at long last, speak up against the bureaucracy and the form-filling, that oppresses police across London and campaigns to get anti bureaucracy, written in to the Metropolitan Police Authority agenda and that hasn't happened in the last - eight years. It needs to happen from May 2nd.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: (overlaps) first politician after thirty years, to get regular beat patrols back on the streets of London. That's why crime fell over 6% last year and 6% the year before. Back on the beat. Identifying the kids that get in to trouble and the worst crimes, murder down 28%, rape down 25% (interjection)

BORIS JOHNSON: I think Londoners (interjection)

JON SOPEL: Hang on, Boris Johnson, let Ken Livingstone finish.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: (overlaps) gun and knife crime down by over 20%. That is because we all knew in our hearts when the Home Office, police constables, Chief constable said, beat police doesn't work we knew it wasn't true.

JON SOPEL: Very briefly, Boris Johnson.

BORIS JOHNSON: I think once again, the Mayor is completely underestimating people's genuine fear and their genuine experiences across London.


BORIS JOHNSON: Muggings are hugely up, violent crime is up. All around the London suburbs, it certainly is, and people do not feel they're getting a good deal and what they need is a Mayor who will speak up for them and get more police out there, above all on public transport.

JON SOPEL: Okay, I would like to speak about another fear that probably an awful lot of Londoners and perhaps people watching around the country have and that is on the state of the economy. Ken Livingstone, there's an enormous furore about the abolition of the 10% tax rate. Isn't there a danger that this could be called Brown's poll tax moment?

KEN LIVINGSTONE: No. I think that it's a mistake to have abolished the 10% rate and I (interjection)

BORIS JOHNSON: You're the Labour candidate. You're funded by the Labour party.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Can I say, I'm not here to put the Labour government's case.


KEN LIVINGSTONE: The deal I did with Tony Blair when I came back in to the Labour Party was I'm answerable to Londoners (interjection)

BORIS JOHNSON: Tony Blair is no longer Prime Minister.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: And that is the reality of it. And I'm here to say what I believe, I'm not here to as a spokesperson for the government.


KEN LIVINGSTONE: I think the 10% cut is wrong and I shall be lobbying hard to say, we've got to do more for the poorest people, the ones paying far too much tax and I (interjection)

JON SOPEL: So you're saying Gordon Brown has got this wrong.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: I think act - we've got it wrong over the last I think people like Boris and me (interjection) should be paying a bit more tax and the poorest people should be paying none at all.

BORIS JOHNSON: Let me tell you where you could cut the taxes on the poor and that's to stop raising the mayoral precept as the Mayor has by a 153% since he came in. He's doubled tube fares and bus fares (interjection) it falls very heavily on the poorest in society and they deserve a better deal. You could stop - millions of pounds have been wasted on his watch, and I think Londoners (interjection)

JON SOPEL: Okay. I just want to come back Ken Livingstone to this whole idea of the abolition of the 10p tax rate. How worried are you that is going to cost you real votes because you are - Ken Livingstone, Labour candidate for mayor.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: I think what's been quite distinct about this election, when you look at the polls is it bears no relation to the national standing of the parties. I mean we've had about four or five polls now showing it's neck and neck between me and Boris, whereas nationally, the Tory party has a 13 or 14% lead (interjection)

BORIS JOHNSON: You are being run by Tessa Jowell!


KEN LIVINGSTONE: I mean nobody runs me Boris. Nobody runs you. That's what Londoners like.


JON SOPEL: Boris Johnson, please. Ken Livingstone. Just on that. That sounds to me as if you're saying, if I was running as purely the Labour candidate, I wouldn't stand a chance now because the government is so unpopular.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Well, I think the reality is in this city, people judge you on what you've done and they judge Boris on what he's written, and that's why this is a very tight race.

BORIS JOHNSON: You're right

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Nationally, at the moment (interjection)

BORIS JOHNSON: And you've said (interjection)


KEN LIVINGSTONE: the government is not doing well. I am confident if it gets it right on looking after lower income families, it can win a forth term.


JON SOPEL: Brian Paddick.

BRIAN PADDICK: The fact is, in this city, 50% of children are living in poverty after eleven years of a Labour government and eight years of a Labour mayor. Is that a record you're proud of Mr Livingstone?

KEN LIVINGSTONE: That's why I was the Mayor that abolished fares on the buses for under eighteens, which saves the average family, three hundred and fifty pounds a year (interjection)

BRIAN PADDICK: We are the only party (interjection)

BORIS JOHNSON: After eight years, after eight years (interjection)

JON SOPEL: Boris Johnson, I want to ask you a specific question which is this. You want to tax the so-called Non Doms - how is that going to help the City, at a time of great financial uncertainty, where you've got all sorts of people saying, you know, frankly we could easily move our Headquarters to another country, like that.

BORIS JOHNSON: No. Let's be clear. I'm wholly opposed to the Labour Party's proposal, which is a 30,000 charge, which they haven't even bothered to establish in advance, is creditable against the IRS obligations of North American tax payers and I do think it's utterly crazy. I think they should be drummed out of office for that single act of incompetence alone.

I do think there is a defensible case for the charge that George Osborne has proposed, because we have taken steps to establish it the way we have structured it, is actually creditable, discountable against your American tax obligations and I really think it's unbelievable that the Labour Mayor is pretending that he's not somehow a creature of the Labour Party. He's being funded by the Labour Party and without giving away the names of the property developer donors that he (interjection)


BORIS JOHNSON: his campaign, and I think by the way, he should be much more transparent about that.

JON SOPEL: Ken Livingstone. David Milliband was writing in the papers this morning that Labour are now the under-dogs. Do you feel yourself the under-dog in this mayoral election.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Already we've had (interjection)

BORIS JOHNSON: No, I'm the under-dog (interjection)

KEN LIVINGSTONE: we've had about five or six polls now that show one or two points between myself and Boris and I think that reflects the mood out there on the streets. It's the most difficult election I've ever faced, but people also know the Mayor we elect on May 1st has got to build 50,000 affordable homes in three years, got to unleash a thirty nine billion transport investment programme and has got to take own control (interjection)

BORIS JOHNSON: Shall I tell you what

KEN LIVINGSTONE: of skills and training in London, and they think that somebody who's actually had the experience of running things, rather than a small right wing magazine may be better placed to do that. (interjection)


BORIS JOHNSON: the Major has got to, he's got to do all those things but he's got to make the streets and the buses and tubes safer and after eight years of a Labour Mayor, I think it incredible, that in the last two weeks of this election campaign, you've suddenly decided that you're going to change the rules of carriage and promise to ban alcohol on the tube. I think that's a (interjection)



JON SOPEL: I'll tell you what, people won't be able to listen if you're both speaking at once.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: When I was lobbying the Labour government to make it a mandatory prison sentence for anyone found carrying a gun, you voted against that.

BORIS JOHNSON: That was because the Bill involved in letting out a lot of prisoners early and you know that is the problem.


JON SOPEL: Brian Paddick.

BRIAN PADDICK: Let me just talk about my experience of talking to people on the street. My experience of the people on the street is, people are very, very nervous about voting for Boris Johnson, even though they're Conservative supporters, because he's got no experience of running anything. They're really nervous about Ken Livingstone, because of his record over the last eight years. There is a serious alternative, somebody who is talking common sense, who doesn't behave like children in a playground, like these two do and I


BRIAN PADDICK: I have a real opportunity to win over, undecided voters and those people who are fed up with career politicians.

JON SOPEL: Brian Paddick, if Ken Livingstone is the under-dog, aren't you the dead dog in this election campaign, because frankly, your standing at the latest poll has you on 9%. You've had an equal platform with these other two and yet you're lagging way, way behind.

BRIAN PADDICK: The polls are varied and they vary between 10% up to 14%. The fact is, there are 16% or more undecided voters. There are lots of people who don't normally vote in an election, who are looking to vote for me because I am not a career politician. I answered the question and I speak the truth.

JON SOPEL: Okay. You talk about the undecided. Have you decided where your second preference is going in this election cos that could be critical on May 1st.

BRIAN PADDICK: Yeah, I've decided what my own personal view is on my second preference.

JON SOPEL: And it is.

BRIAN PADDICK: It's a secret ballot. The fact is

JON SOPEL: The Liberal Democrat Party that advocates this form of proportional representation.


JON SOPEL: That you should have this plurality. Why can't you tell us.

BRIAN PADDICK: Because my job as a candidate for Mayor is to get people to vote for me first preference and my responsibility as a Democrat is to say to other people, you've got to listen to the other candidates and make your own mind up who you vote for second preference.

JON SOPEL: Who's the least worst out of these two.

BRIAN PADDICK: The difficulty is you're between a rock and a hard place. You've got a tragedy and a comedy.

JON SOPEL: Come off the fence. Who is your second preference for.

BRIAN PADDICK: My second preference isn't for either of these two and I'm not prepared to say any more than that.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Well that's transparency for you.

JON SOPEL: Boris Johnson, you're a fabulous columnist, but isn't what makes you a great columnist, the thing that makes you unfit to be Mayor in that you kind of do speak your mind rather. I mean you went on the Asian Network and said this week, 'I'm down with the ethnics, you can't out ethnic me'. When you see that written down in cold print, doesn't it make you come out in a cold sweat.

BORIS JOHNSON: Yeah well half the quote is made up but let me tell you, I don't think that Londoners are (interjection)

BRIAN PADDICK: Boris, I was there, that's exactly what you said.

BORIS JOHNSON: Well, I certainly said you can't out-ethnic me - because I want to, you know, people (interjection)

BRIAN PADDICK: sat next to an Asian


BORIS JOHNSON: I hope you'll let me finish Brian. I do think it important that we fully represent the diversity of London. I'm happy to say that I'm composed like many people in this city of you know, immigrants from all over the world and so are my family, I'm very proud of that. But I think what Londoners want is a very, very clear choice and they want a change on May 1st from an era I think that is increasingly tired and stale and running out of fresh ideas and they want someone who is going to offer new thinking, particularly addressing their number one concern, which is their feeling of insecurity in public space, particularly on the spaces for which the mayor is directly responsible - the tubes, the buses, the station platforms where I'm putting forward specific proposals to make London safer.

JON SOPEL: Brian Paddick.

BRIAN PADDICK: But what they don't want is incompetence. What they don't want is somebody who likes to make jokes at other people's expense. What they don't want is division and hostility being generated by ill-thought through comments. This is what you get in a very short, very

KEN LIVINGSTONE: I think what they want is someone who lived half their life south of the river, half their life north of the river - that's almost like being mixed race Boris.


JON SOPEL: Boris Johnson, I'm going to stop you. We've got thirty seconds left. If you were to use one word to describe the other two candidates, what would they be Boris Johnson.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: One word, could we have two or three.

JON SOPEL: Two or three.

BORIS JOHNSON: :Stale and got some interesting things to say about policing.

JON SOPEL: Ken Livingstone, about Boris Johnson. Two or three words.

KEN LIVINGSTONE: Someone's who's guaranteed that this has got the attention it deserves in an election and has London as a real choice. I'm glad of that. And Brian is someone I'd love to have working on my team if I'm re-elected.

JON SOPEL: Brian Paddick.

BRIAN PADDICK: I've said it before, I'll say it again - tragedy, comedy.

BORIS JOHNSON: Sorry who was - what are you then.

BRIAN PADDICK: Interchangeable.

JON SOPEL: All right, all of you, thank you very much indeed.



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NB:These transcripts were typed from a recording and not copied from original scripts.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for their accuracy.

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The Politics Show Sunday 20 April 2008 at 1200BST on BBC One.
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