Interview with Ted Cantle

Ted Cantle, wrote the report on the 2001 riots

Ted Cantle, who wrote the report on the 2001 riots in Oldham and other towns, in which he warned of the dangers of different communities leading "parallel lives", still advises the government on community cohesion.

In an interview with Vivian White, he told Panorama that anxieties around these issues, in both the Muslim and white communities, should be discussed more openly.

Vivian White
People whom we've spoken to, many of them are very worried about talking about 'white flight' even when they're part of the process themselves.

Ted Cantle
Yes, I think clearly people are going be worried about being labelled as... as racist, and revealing openly those fears, even though it may be actually a more complex issue than that, and actually not just as simple to say that it is racist.

Vivian White
Should these things be discussed or not?

Ted Cantle
Of course they should be discussed, I think we have to make sure that we're much more open and transparent in the way society is moving. I think if we discuss some of the fears then we go a long way to assuaging them.

If we keep them somehow locked up then people feel that decisions are being taken for the sake of political correctness, that's often the term which is used.

So I think it's much better to actually have an honest debate, that may be difficult and painful sometimes, but let's have an honest debate, and I think people then will be actually much better equipped to come to terms with change.

Vivian White
Do you think that legislation... you talked about political correctness, do you think that legislation designed to deal with - quotes - "racism", which is meant to be part of the solution, can become part of the problem?

Ted Cantle
I think it can become part of the problem if it has the effect of limiting the debate, and most of the legislation we've got stems really from a position of 40 years ago where we were very concerned about the rise of the extreme right and some of the naked and overt racism, which was very, very, strong.

We're now in a different position, I think we actually need to loosen some of those ties so that we can actually have a more mature debate.

There will always be those that worry about that debate being hijacked, again, by people who just want to stir up trouble and hatred, but actually I think the time has come for us to just have a more mature debate and permit more forms of expression, it will be painful, but the longer-term process will be, I think, a much better level of understanding.

Vivian White
As things stand is there a danger that genuine cultural differences are somehow censored and people feel that they mustn't be discussed for fear, on either side, that they'll sound like racists?

Ted Cantle
Yes, there is, there is that fear, I think that's absolutely right, but those people that have got some multicultural experience, perhaps in their neighbourhood, or in their school, are now much more able to hold those sorts of debates, and there are quite a number of successful mixed neighbourhoods where that's beginning to happen, so I think we've got to build on those.

Vivian White
Should laws that have been passed to try and reduce - in quotes - "racism", and the dangers of racism, or for that matter racially motivated crimes, should any of these laws be taken off the statute book then, to remove the risk that these become part of the problem?

Ted Cantle
I think the sort of fundamental anti-discrimination laws are pretty sound, the more difficult areas are really in inciting racial or religious hatred, and perhaps preventing people to express some of their fears and differences about others, and that's where I think actually we need to be a little bit more tolerant in order to make sure that there is a more open debate and that people can develop a better understanding.

All that... if we refuse to discuss those issues then they'll be said in the pubs and the clubs and on the street corners anyway, so it's probably better to try and defeat racism much more openly, and then more transparently, rather than just simply drive it underground.

Vivian White
But if I'm not misunderstanding you, Ted Cantle, you're saying there's too much political correctness which is stifling proper expression of views that can and should properly be heard?

Ted Cantle
I think there is a perception at least that there is too much political correctness and that people feel unable to express their views, they feel that they're going to be condemned as a racist, so there certainly is a very strong perception of that difficulty. I think perhaps it's sometimes more imagined than real and we have to...

Vivian White
But you've some sympathy for that?

Ted Cantle
Yes, I have, and I think we have to demonstrate to those people that actually these are issues that they can raise providing they're going to raise them in a proper context, then actually it's a good idea to try and get them out in the open so that they can be debated and so that some of the misconceptions can actually be dispelled.

Vivian White
And now we've been talking it through, why does separation matter?

Ted Cantle
Well I think separation matters because we can't have a series of communities living in parallel lives, with no contact, no interaction, and no trust, between them.

Unless there is a reasonable degree of interaction then that trust is just not going to happen, the different communities are not going to be able to get on well with each other, and it is possible for mischievous people, particularly on the extreme right, to demonise one community, to capitalise on the fear and ignorance about that community.

So we have to break down those barriers, not just simply in residential terms, but in all other areas too.

Panorama: White Fright will be broadcast on Monday, 7 May 2007 at 2030 BST on BBC One.

Or watch online on the Panorama website

Watch White Fright online