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Have your say: Pin fraud and coins

Chip and PIN machine
Chip and PIN technology is meant to help reduce card fraud

Consumer groups are calling for banks to change their approach to card fraud when a customer's pin has been used after the theft of a purse or wallet.

Banks are supposed to pay out when a customer's cards are stolen, unless they can prove a customer acted fraudulently or without "reasonable care."

But at least one banking group, Natwest/Royal Bank of Scotland, is now turning down claims where the correct pin was used by the thief, unless there was an obvious opportunity for the pin to have been observed.

The consumer group Which says it is seeing too many disputed cases to be explained by customer carelessness.

This debate is now closed. A selection of your comments are below.

Cashing in your coppers

Supermarket coin-changing machines are popular, even though they charge a fee.

Banks change money for free - but it is not always so convenient an option.

We asked for your experiences of trying to turn your copper coins into cash.

This debate is now closed. A selection of your comments are below.

YOUR COMMENTS ON PIN FRAUD

Eight years ago, I was robbed at a cash point, with my card stolen. I called the issuer to cancel the card that was taken. Two days later, hundreds of pounds was out of my account, and my bank denied all knowledge of my call, refusing to refund my money. It wasn't until I presented a phone bill that HSBC were miraculously able to find my call after all, reluctantly returning my money. Nice to see banks are still up to their old tricks.
Mark, Vauxhall

I have had my first card fraud experience with my debit card, although my card has not been stolen. I found a transaction on my account that I had not made, on the day it hit my account. It was a card payment in a shop, made while I was at work. I have not written my pin number anywhere, nor do I ever let the card out of my sight. I can only assume that somehow while making a payment in a store my card was cloned and my pin was captured. I am waiting for my bank to resolve the matter, they haven't even asked me to complete a fraud form yet in the two calls I have made to them, they say they will look into the matter. In the mean time my card has been cancelled so I am further inconvenienced as am currently without a debit card. Should the bank not get my money back I will close the account and bank elsewhere!
Catherine, Rugby

My credit card pin has been used fraudulently. It's still in my possession. I reported this to my bank, when I noticed money being taken from cash machines in my town, which was identified on my statements. The bank is saying that I have been negligent with my pin as I have either given it to someone or a member of my family has used my card. Because of this they are refusing to pay back the £3000 which has been taken in cash from my credit card account. They also refused to investigate the CCTV where the money was taken from. The police will not get involved unless the bank asks them to do so. It was only when I complained to the Ombudsman that are they now looking into it. It felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall with the conversations I had with the bank. I have no idea how the investigation will turn out, I live in hope they will refund the money.
Anne, Exmouth

I had an ATM transaction which I did not recognise, informed the bank cancelled my card, and went through the process of trying to prove I was not involved, and wanted a refund. I have Multiple Sclerosis, and stress is an unwanted part of life I try to avoid. I was made to feel as if I was guilty. After complaining officially about the lack of service and communication, 7 weeks after the initial inquiry into the missing money, I was told that the correct PIN had to be keyed in, so I was at fault..To top it all off, I checked my account on the 01/10/09, and the same had happened again, money out of my account, whilst I was at home, in bed, with my wallet in plain view. Please, get this story out there.., the banks are a law to themselves.
Glyn, Manchester

Re: your web article "customers blamed for fraud" you should really point out that the banking code, to which you refer, is being abolished on November 1st. Part of its replacement, the payment services regulations, is much tougher on banks for fraudulent use of payment instruments i.e. cards/pins etc. Banks will need to prove "gross negligence" by the customer, which is nigh on impossible. Failing this, the customers liability will be limited to £50.
Stuart, London

Following a recent fraud on my Credit Card, I found that a PIN reminder had been requested (not by me) which was posted out but which I never received. The Bank's documentation shows that a PIN reminder can be requested via a simple text message, all you need to know is the card number. The reminder then goes by post to the card holder's address, but if the post is not secure the card number can be obtained from a statement and then the PIN reminder to that address can also be intercepted.
Malcolm, Slough

Why won't banks put our photos on debit and credit cards and why don't they have a debit card that we can load to an amount to suit us for use on the internet etc and if your card is lost or stolen they would not able to take large amounts out of your account and also save banks money.
K Wedge, Southampton

I read the case of Richard Elphick and the stolen NatWest card with interest. A few years ago my then bank, refused to give me a chip and sign card as I didn't have a medical reason not to have a chip and pin one. Consequently, I changed banks to one which provided a chip and sign card. The reason I have this is it makes it much more difficult for the bank to refuse to reimburse in the event of misuse.In the event I can demand to see the signature. The banks don't like it (tough!) and tell me of the disadvantage of not being able to use ATM. I always get cash back at the supermarket! In the light of your report I shall continue to resist the bank's efforts to get me on to chip and pin.
Jim, Exmouth

Don't write down your pin? Don't be ridiculous! Everyone and their dog wants to give you a 'Password and PIN number' I have three pages in my diary full of them, approaching 90 in all. They range from eBay to banks to house insurance to software companies to mobile phone support to Oyster card. The banks need to understand their clients, we're not still using quill pens!
Martin, Henley

In January this year I was horrified to find a total of £1800 had been removed from my account in a series of withdrawals from Automatic Machines in six different locations in the USA over a period of a couple of weeks. At no time had my card been out of my possession. No one knew my pin number. It was not written down anywhere. The bank initially decided that they would not accept any responsibility for this fraud. I was shocked and horrified. There appeared to be a suggestion that as I had not used the card myself during this period I may have perpetrated the crime myself! Eventually I managed to get this decision reversed and was reimbursed.
Pamela, Middlesex

Listening to your programme on credit fraud, my husband and I went on holiday to Antarctica and whilst away, our credit card (which had not been used for 6 months!) was misused to the tune of £2,600. The bank refunded the money, but as our cards were in a home safe, the only way a fraudster could have known the 'pin' would have been a company employee from whom we had purchased goods in the distant past. But how did he/she know we were on holiday and unable for 3 weeks to query any purchasers?
Jan, Lincolnshire

YOUR COMMENTS ON COIN CASHING

I've never understood the wisdom of collecting coins in jars. Although some people see it as a way of saving, in reality it just means they are breaking into notes sooner. It's a total waste of time and causes delays in banks etc. Good job they get charged for exchanging their small coins.
William, Crawley

Your piece on coin changing was fascinating but what your listeners may not realise is that we retailers are charged for change - yes we have to pay for the Bank of England to get their cash out to the great British public. We have fought this for years, pointing out that we should be paid for this service but of course to no avail! So to all those who use the cash changers I would appeal that they forgo the big shops. Shop local and they will find that they get a pound for pound (or penny for penny) exchange because we welcome their change - and it helps stop us funding the banks, and that has to be better for everyone!
David, Warwick

My 8 year old, at best a reluctant scholar, needed encouragement with his basic maths- addition etc. Helping me count our large tin of loose change collected over a few years noticeably improved his school test performance and he thought he was having fun not being educated! I did incentivise him with an offer of keeping a third of the total which turned out to be a good deal for him as there was more than I guessed. But I would rather reward his learning than pay an exorbitant 8.4%. My Bank, Barclays took the change correctly packaged in their plastic coin bags for no charge.
Paul, Billericay

My local Barclays branch (Croydon) put in a change counting machine, similar to the ones used in supermarkets, but instead of charging to count the change it went directly into the customer's account. I thought this was an excellent idea as it seemed to solve all the issues that banks have with taking change, and of course, the saved money went straight into an account. Unfortunately, however, the branch has recently seen fit to remove this facililty, which is a shame for all concerned.
Anne, Croydon

People could take their saved pennies into their local small retail businesses and exchange the small change, thus saving bank fees for themselves and the small shops.
Audrey, Rhondda Cynon Taff

What to do with all those coppers that fill our pockets? I put mine in a tin on top of the fridge and then give the proceeds to a charity once a year.
Trevor

Rule 1 - separate copper and steel coins with a magnet
Rule 2 - weigh in the copper for scrap
Rule 3 - don't get caught!
Roger, Sheffield

I've never understood the wisdom of collecting coins in jars. Although some people see it as a way of saving, in reality it just means they are breaking into notes sooner. It's a total waste of time and causes delays in banks etc. Good job they get charged for exchanging their small coins.
Will M, Crawley

I want to introduce a complementary NOTE-counting service. All the supermarket has to do is provide me with a table and a sign. I will PERSONALLY count the notes of anyone who presents me with £100 or more. And I will ONLY charge them FIVE PERCENT. There's a bargain.
Peter, Sheffield



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