Humanity's rise out of suffering

On 14 March 2004, Sir David Frost interviewed Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, Archbishop of Westminster

Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

Archbishop of Westminster: 'An offence against God'

DAVID FROST: In Spain, as well as the unprecedented demonstrations against the terrorists, there have also been, of course, expressions of the most profound anguish and grief. The first funerals were held yesterday and of course at church services throughout that Catholic country today the dead and injured will be mourned. Here in Britain, thousands turned up at Westminster Cathedral on Friday night and the Archbishop of Westminster, the head of the Catholic Church in Britain, is conducting another special service here in London a little later this morning. Cardinal, welcome.

CARDINAL MURPHY-O'CONNOR: Thank you.

DAVID FROST: What, what was your reaction when you heard about this, what was your personal reaction when you heard about this outrage?

CARDINAL MURPHY-O'CONNOR: There have been two reactions that I've had over this terrible atrocity. The first is the terror of terrorism, that what an evil thing it is, an offence against God. God had created life, and that it should be wiped out in this random way is just a terrible atrocity, a terrible evil. And I think that was just universally felt, not only in Spain but also all over the world. But the second reaction that I've had to this terrible event has been the reaction of the Spanish people, a reaction of dignity, a reaction of, of one of, I thought, great profundity. And even in Westminster, there on the Friday night, I joined with many young Spanish people - there were thousands there at the mass - but I joined with them and do you know what struck me, David, was the fact that, yes, emotion, great emotion, but also somebody cried out "Let us be silent" as if before evil because people ask how does, why does God allow such suffering, that the only answer is somehow silence. How that silence denoting dignity, denoting resilience, denoting respect, denoting the courage of a people that will come through this terrible, this terrible grief.

DAVID FROST: And so if in your congregation today there are relatives, bereaved relatives or relatives of those who are - there are more than a thousand people who have been wounded and so on - what is the message of consolation that you can bring to them?

CARDINAL MURPHY-O'CONNOR: I think the only consolation is the consolation of the grief, the collaboration in their suffering of the, of humanity, of their fellow compatriots in Spain and indeed in here, but also of all, all decent people, who react in horror and think of them, and I hope many of them praying for them and just being with them in their thoughts and in their prayers. That is all we can offer but it is important.

DAVID FROST: And you mentioned about people questioning, obviously it brings up the perennial question again about how can an all powerful, omnipotent God allow this sort of thing. But is allow the right word?

CARDINAL MURPHY-O'CONNOR: Well why does it happen, I think is one of the most profoundest questions that confront, confronts everyone. Why does God allow such evil suffering for people? I think there are, as I say, I think two answers: one for Christians, we know and believe that God in some way shares our suffering, in Jesus Christ who suffered and died in terrible agony. But also I think the only other answer is the answer, as I've said, of silence. Of somehow realising that this is allowed, this terrible - and yet humanity continues and rises again out of, out of suffering to continue its, its pilgrimage.

DAVID FROST: And of course today we meet on an important day in the history of the Catholic Church because today the Pope becomes the second or third longest serving Pope, depending on whether you count St Peter. What are your feelings about that? I gather his health is better than it was last year.

CARDINAL MURPHY-O'CONNOR: There's no doubt Pope John Paul is a remarkable man. He's reigned for over 25 years and people thought in October that he might be nearing the end of his life but here he is at least much, much stronger than he was and able to continue his, his work as Pope. And there's no doubt he's had a, he's had a profound influence over the past 25 years. He began his, he began his pontificate confronting Eastern Europe and the tyranny of communism and now we find him a man of peace, a man, I suppose, the greatest moral voice in the world today.

DAVID FROST: And his successor, when he's chosen, will need to - oddly enough linking up with what we were saying earlier - will need to make new approaches, in a way, to the world of Islam, in the way that he did to the world of Judaism.

CARDINAL MURPHY-O'CONNOR: I think that's right. I think there are a number of, a number of challenges for the next Pope, whenever he is elected. One I think is, one that we face here in Britain and all over is the de-Christianisation of Europe. How in fact does the Christian Church in Europe regain its, and develop its witness in a new kind of culture that we have. That's a very serious question. And then the relationship with Islam - very, very important for all Christians - indeed for all people - that we have a proper dialogue with the people of Islam so that justice, peace, can reign on earth. After all, this is what we all want.

DAVID FROST: Have you, have you had a chance to see yet the Mel Gibson movie - I mean it's certainly brought religion back onto the front pages.

CARDINAL MURPHY-O'CONNOR: I haven't seen it, the film, but everyone I've met who has seen it has, has been, I think, profoundly moved by, by the film. There were people who said it was, you know, was it anti-Semitic - I don't think from what I hear that it is in anyway anti-Semitic. I think they've been very careful not to, in any way, induce anti-Semitism. I think it is a profound reflection on the passion of Christ. That's what occurs to me. And that people who see it are profoundly moved and it enables them to think about the suffering and death of Christ in a new way.

DAVID FROST: So you hope people will go and see it when it opens?

CARDINAL MURPHY-O'CONNOR: I think I shall go and see it and I think that people will make their own judgements on what is one man's interpretation - Mel Gibson and those who worked with him - on what is the most important event in human history, namely the life, the death, the passion and death of Christ.

DAVID FROST: In your new book, At the Heart of the World, you have a section there on forgiveness. Now you weren't thinking about the tragedy that we've been talking about today, though you were talking about forgiveness more in everyday life and so on. But should we ever forgive the killers in Madrid? Would God forgive the killers in Madrid? Is there forgiveness for all, even for them?

CARDINAL MURPHY-O'CONNOR: I don't think it's appropriate at this point to talk about forgiveness in Madrid, because I think the thoughts of everyone are, are with those who have suffered. And indeed, I suppose there is not only forgiveness, there is such a thing as justice, as well, that must be, must be brought to bear on those who have committed such a terrible act. But forgiveness in the wider sense is very important. I mean if we do not forgive, then how can we be forgiven, how can we know that we are forgiven. People need to experience forgiveness in their life and I think one of the great gifts of the Christian Church is the, is the gift that we know, through Jesus Christ, that the God of Jesus Christ is a God of love and a God of forgiveness. And that's at the heart of our faith.

DAVID FROST: Cardinal, thank you very much. It's always a joy to have you with us.

CARDINAL MURPHY-O'CONNOR: Thank you very much David.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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