Support for identity cards

On 9 November 2003, Sir David Frost interviewed Sir John Stevens, Commissioner Metropolitan Police.

Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

Sir John Stevens, Commissioner Metropolitan Police

DAVID FROST: Well, as we mentioned, the Metropolitan Commissioner for Police, Sir John Stevens, known as Britain's top cop - a good phrase isn't it, really - is with us this morning, and welcome John.

JOHN STEVENS: Thank you.

DAVID FROST: Can I start with this weekend's news, front page of The Times yesterday, the news of this awesome new scanner in order to fight those people who are armed with either guns or other weapons. How does that work?

JOHN STEVENS: Well we have tried to make use of all the technology that's around and it will involve a quantum leap in terms of how we tackle this type of crime. It's bringing together some of the techniques we've been using in anti-terrorism, also linking in with some of the techniques used to search people at airports and we hope to be using that before Christmas or in the new year.

DAVID FROST: Before Christmas or in the new year. Was it, was it inspired by James Bond? Two, two James Bond movies ago there was a device like this.

JOHN STEVENS: No, David, it wasn't. It was, it's actually a gradual work up of some of the techniques we've been using specifically in the anti-terrorist world.

DAVID FROST: And what about the people who say well, you know, basically if a, if a peeping tom or someone gets hold of this machine they can strip any girl naked as she's walking down the street, as it were, with the machine. How do you guard against that sort of thing?

JOHN STEVENS: Well it doesn't actually work that way but we do, must make sure that there are safeguards in relation to how we use it. The use of technology actually has been advancing and when we come to ID cards, which is something I was ambivalent about five years ago but very much in favour now, the technology in relation to that will allow us to use identification cards in a way that we have never envisaged before.

DAVID FROST: Well that's exactly what I wanted to talk about second, so you're spot on there. And in fact, while we're on the how it works bit, I mean people think it's going to be more complicated obviously than a credit card, some people say well we've got passports why do we need this, but is it because of all the extra devices, the retinal spotting and so on? What is, what is the way to make an ID card, a compulsory ID card, work?

JOHN STEVENS: Well there are two reasons for it. We have been picking up people, terrorists and also organised crime individuals, who have got identification on them which is as good as the identification you or I carry - we've got a problem in relation to that.

The new biometric type of advances which have been made which allow us to use fingerprints, allows us to use eye identification, give us a certain amount of certainty in terms of identification. It is absolutely essential, in the modern world, the dangerous world we live in, that we have proper means of identification.

DAVID FROST: And what about people who say well that's all right, sure just for illegal immigrants that's fine, or whatever, or people coming into the country and trying to disappear when they get here, but why do all the rest of us need it?

JOHN STEVENS: Well I think a certain amount of certainty about identification is needed because when police stop and search people, of course some difficulties can arise if there's some difficulty in actually identifying people. But if you've got a means of identifying people with reasonable certainty - which this is - then I think that's what we should be using.

DAVID FROST: And will it, will it have a significant effect in helping you in the war against terror?

JOHN STEVENS: We have absolutely no doubt it will. One of the main aspects of it which must take place is as the technology is used we keep ahead of the criminal, so you'd need a technical unit to make sure the criminals, when it is being used, don't get ahead of the game in relation to that as well. We can do that and should do it.

DAVID FROST: What's the realistic timetable, there may be draft legislation in the Queen's Speech and so on, that's obviously, we haven't seen that yet, but I mean how long will it take to introduce this to the whole population?

JOHN STEVENS: Well some time. But for us in the police -

DAVID FROST: Years, though, will it?

JOHN STEVENS: Well we hope not, what we'd like to see is it brought in quite quickly. I think you could incorporate it in driving licence identification and some of the identification we all carry as a matter of course. So the sooner it's brought in for us, being somewhat selfish in terms of the public safety, the sooner it's brought in the better.

DAVID FROST: And it will cost about, cost each of us, leaving aside the old and those who are below a certain threshold, financial threshold, the rest of us will pay £39 it's estimated.

JOHN STEVENS: Well I think the cost of it is still being organised. I mean one of the reasons I think why there's been a certain amount of reticence about bringing it in is the cost. But for me, as a police officer, and for us as the police service, we know the benefits it can bring.

DAVID FROST: And in terms of the battle against terror you said a few weeks ago, you were quoted as saying I think we are on the highest alert we've ever been on. Are we still on that or on an even higher one at the moment, particularly after Saudi Arabia?

JOHN STEVENS: We're on the highest alert that we've ever been ... we're working flat out, we're working two and a half times harder than we did at the very height of the Irish terrorism campaign. A massive amount of activity, a massive amount work being undertaken.

DAVID FROST: Does the Saudi Arabian thing - because we had sort of, there were rumours during the week that there might be a hit against Saudi Arabia or Qatar and so on - does this make your prediction that bit gloomier about the UK? That there will be maybe a suicide terrorist in the UK or something - I mean how should we all approach that possibility?

JOHN STEVENS: Well the phrase I've been using, be alert but not alarmed, is the phrase. I think, for us in the security services and the police, what we have to do is to see an attack as inevitable. That means to say that we are doing everything we can to prevent but just as importantly as that, if it does take place or when it takes place, we've got everything in place to ensure that we can do everything for the people of London and the people of this country.

DAVID FROST: Yes because a technology select committee, this week, expressed concern - I'm quoting here - "at the lack of new investment in measures to deal with chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear attacks." I suppose we've been talking of some investment here with ID cards but are they right that there's not enough being done at the moment?

JOHN STEVENS: Well I think you have got to continually look at what the threat is and we run exercises regularly, we've had an active exercise involving the tube in the City not so long ago, lessons have been learnt from that, and what we do is go back to government and ask for additional funding if that's needed for equipment and we're in the course of doing that.

DAVID FROST: People worry about gun crime, there are various statistics which seem to compete with one another, one period 35 per cent increase, another period three per cent increase, but obviously any reference to guns and shooting in this country is particularly alien to this country and so on. Are you, are you confident or doubtful whether you can stem that?

JOHN STEVENS: I think we have no doubt that we can stem it, in London there's been a 22 per cent decrease in Trident related crimes. Gun crime in the capital is down by ten per cent, but that's been a large investment in what we're doing, the only way you can get into these offences, is actually having an overall tactic to deal with them.

You've got to guard witnesses, you've got to be involved in using informants and our detection rate for Trident, last year, went up to 80 per cent from 20 per cent the previous year. That has only been achieved by giving witnesses protection and using all the techniques we used in anti-terrorism.

DAVID FROST: John, what are the latest figures, the percentage of crimes where the killer or the thief, whatever it is, where the person who perpetrated it is apprehended and convicted? I mean what percentage of crimes is that now? Is it about 20 per cent?

JOHN STEVENS: It's, for London it's 30 per cent, which is far too low, however with the higher type of crimes, the murder detection rate at the present time in the capital is 93 per cent. In terms of Trident it's gone up to 80 per cent. What we've got to do in London is actually make sure our detection rate increases. The good news at the moment is it is increasing and we've got more work to do on that.

DAVID FROST: What about racism, with the settlement with Ali Dizaei this week and so on, do you think you've rooted out racism in the Metropolitan Police? Do you think you've got no members of the BNP for policemen, as to quote David Blunkett saying this week that they shouldn't be - I mean do you think you've won that battle or you still in the later stages of it?

JOHN STEVENS: Well we certainly haven't won that battle and it's the same with the battle against corruption. I am afraid that these people will try and target the police service.

I am afraid they will try and get into the police service, what we've got to make sure is that we don't allow them in as far as we can and, just as importantly as that, that the outrageous conduct that we saw in that programme is identified and those people are expelled from the service.

DAVID FROST: Do you think any of your policemen are members, covert perhaps, members of the BNP or - very difficult to find out I should think.

JOHN STEVENS: It is difficult to find out but I think in terms of ethical testing we've got to get into that. If we find anyone who is in the BNP I'm afraid they, it doesn't actually ring true to being a police officer.

DAVID FROST: So you would act - if you found somebody who was, and hadn't declared it, a member of the BNP - you would act to suspend him or sack him?

JOHN STEVENS: Well we would certainly inquire into who he is or who she is and we would have to look at who they are because the, we cannot allow people who come from extremist parties - whether it's the BNP or likewise - in the service. We're an apolitical service and that's how we should continue.

DAVID FROST: What should be the target for the police, I read one thing yesterday that said that the level of ethnic percentages of policemen was three per cent or something. What ought it to be?

JOHN STEVENS: Well we've actually met our targets, we're going to be 6.6 per cent this year. But I think that the actual police service should represent the community we serve, so you're looking for something like 20 to 25 per cent in the Metropolitan Police and the sooner we get up to that the better.

DAVID FROST: And what about spiderman, can you prevent that happening again?

JOHN STEVENS: Well that was extremely difficult in terms of where he was and what he was doing. It caused a large amount of inconvenience which everyone got very cross about and understandably.

We took advice initially in terms of what we were doing, the health and safety rules are pretty strict in this country, as I know only too well, can end up with some of us ending up at the Old Bailey on certain cases - although we were found not guilty. So we had to look at that and then we tried to negotiate in the way we did. We tried to ensure there was minimum disruption. At the end of the day we brought him down.

DAVID FROST: And finally, just one other question in terms of looking at the whole police set up, what about elected local sheriffs? This idea that the police chiefs would be elected, I mean would you like to be elected?

JOHN STEVENS: No I wouldn't. I've, I've seen a lot of what happens in America. I think the strength of British policing is to be apolitical, so that we're not influenced by politicians - you know, we do investigate of course politicians and can give some examples of that.

It is absolutely essential and it is the golden thread of British policing, we're apolitical, we're independent, in fact, in how we enforce the law. We must ensure that continues. However, no problem with local accountability and we're looking for a step change in London to actually drive down the accountability to ward level which will link in with local councils and the like.

DAVID FROST: Well thank you for that tour de raison. John we thank you very much for that this morning. And we hope you are going to have a testing time coming up, I suppose, with presidential visit, in terms of balancing protest rights with the safety of the president. That's going to be tough isn't it?

JOHN STEVENS: Very tough indeed. I think the next two to three weeks, starting with today or course, we're unprecedented in terms of the activity we're involved in and we must make sure we get the balance right when President Bush comes.

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