25 May 2003

Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used

PETER SISSONS: Now we all remember that dramatic moment in Baghdad when the statue of Saddam was toppled, marking the end of the dictator's bloody reign. Applause all round the world, but a few months later, a month later, reports from the Iraqi capital suggests all is not well. The old order has indeed been swept away but the new order still involves looting and a lack of basic infrastructure. In a moment we'll be talking to Major General Tim Cross, but first live to Baghdad and Alex Renton from the aid agency Oxfam. Good morning Alex.

ALEX RENTON: Good morning.

PETER SISSONS: How would you describe conditions in Baghdad?

ALEX RENTON: Well, it is patchy in Baghdad as it is across the country, I mean suddenly in some places things are improving. The message we are getting from the coalition now the government of this country, is that things are swiftly getting better, they point to the rubbish collection, the traffic policemen. But in areas I've visited and I've been across the whole of southern Iraq this week I was seeing some very frightened Iraqis, some people I think losing confidence in the ability of the new regime to restore and give them safety.

PETER SISSONS: But is the new regime making progress?

ALEX RENTON: I think in areas it is. I mean in central Baghdad it is certainly more peaceful than it was a week ago but there are still drive-by shootings going on, there are still attacks on soldiers and there is still real fear on the streets. Women who don't want to leave their homes, families who are frightened to send their children to school. And areas of the city with no public services whatsoever, we're working in one area where there is no water at all, and no gas to boil it and as a result we're seeing the sort of outbreak of diahorrea diseases you'd expect in this very hot weather.

PETER SISSONS: The Americans of course have made changes at the top, with Paul Bremmer brought in and Barbara Bodene and Jay Garner demoted apparently. Do those changes seem to be doing the trick?

ALEX RENTON: There's certainly an effort in Baghdad at least to try and convince the Iraqi people that indeed there is new regime here and there is a new get-tough policy. We've seen many more looters arrested, people trudge round the city with their hands tied behind their backs and that's obviously that's something that has to be done. But I think from our perspective and certainly in southern Iraq, there remains this corrosive fear of lack of security and this is in the people who were used to although they were used to complete law and order because that's what a dictatorship brings and now with the very very thin policing on the grounds, and very few people in terms of soldiers or Iraqi police, they are genuinely frightened and that's having real effects on anyone's efforts to build up a long term strategy for helping the Iraqis get back on their feet.

PETER SISSONS: So, will you go as far as a reporter in today's Observer, who says this is now a society of prey or predators, fully armed with guns the US failed to secure?

ALEX RENTON: No I wouldn't go that far. I mean I was in Nasiriyah government during this week and there we're seeing, somewhere which is really quite calm. But we're seeing a wider effect of lack of security, we're trying to deliver water services, we're trying to restore the water system there. There's a huge problem with people stealing water and these are desperate people who break the water main to get water for their families. Now if you ask, as we did, the local engineers, what would have happened to them in the past they say, well we shot them. They were shot by the police on sight. But obviously the coalition can't do that. But it has to get enough people on the ground to restore people's sense of a civic framework, a sense of civic responsibility and so on, and there are not enough soldiers or policemen in Iraq at the moment to do that.

PETER SISSONS: Alex Renton, speaking for Oxfam in Baghdad. Thank you very much for joining us.

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