Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used

DAVID FROST: As we were saying with David Willetts it's been a bad week for Labour, the polls reveal a lurch towards less public confidence, Tony Blair's own back-benchers are gearing up to revolt over the Iraq issue and there are plots afoot to shift the Prime Minister out of the top job however unlikely that is.

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DAVID FROST: Well the Foreign Secretary Jack Straw joins me right now, Iraq there, a subject which we'll come on to in a minute if we may and the, but just beginning with the recent news of our fighting men going into, going into Afghanistan, we've got our peacekeeping force there, obviously that's one thing, but now our fighting men going in. There was one report that said the reason for this change of tactics was that the, PA reported that biological and chemical weapons factories have been found in the mountains of Afghanistan, was that a key factor?

JACK STRAW: Look I'm not going to talk about intelligence that we receive but the key factor determining our deployment of troops is perfectly obvious, it's the damage that was done on September the 11th and the potential that the Al Qaieda terrorists pose and continue to pose to the security of Afghanistan, to the region and to the world. That's why we decided to back this international coalition in the first place and why it's very important that we should continue to make a contribution.

DAVID FROST: And what about the people who worry about is this another Vietnam or is it another Sierra Leone where a mission creep takes on a situation where we're there for much longer than we ever planned to be?

JACK STRAW: Well you can never, you can never pre-determine these things David, I mean if it, I think if it's another Sierra Leone then I've, it will turn out, I think, to be a cause for celebration because in Sierra Leone we have proved, just how good can be a combination of British diplomacy, British military action and British humanitarian aid. What we have done there, I'll start again, in Sierra Leone what we have shown is how a combination of humanitarian aid, military action and diplomacy really has worked to avert a really desperate civil war and to put that country back on the path to peace. It has not been in the newspapers but over the last six months 35,000 rebel troops, badly trained angry rebel troops have been reintegrated into civil society in Sierra Leone so...

DAVID FROST: It's been a good, it's been a good operation obviously Sierra Leone but the point where people bring it in saying originally we have people assuring us that we, the troops would be out by June, not more than six weeks and it has gone on for years, only a few years but it's gone on for years rather than six weeks, will the same thing happen here?

JACK STRAW: You cannot, you cannot say for certain how long it's going to last, let's be clear about that but my judgement is that it is much more likely to be like Sierra Leone than Vietnam I think the idea that we heard within two or three weeks David that Afghanistan was going to be like Vietnam was completely fanciful. Vietnam was a war without proper international backing in which the Americans almost unilaterally got bogged down and ultimately had to retreat in what amounted to defeat. Afghanistan, military action backed by international law, by huge coalition for very, very specific purpose, rooting out the Al Qaeda terrorist and because they weren't willing to do the job themselves, of changing the regime, the Taliban regime and introducing a democratic regime. I've been to Kabul, I've seen the joy on the faces of the women and children in Kabul about their liberation, I've spoken to some of the women, I went to a girls' school when I was there, I said what was it like under the Taliban, one of the women there produced a document in the local language and I said "what's this?" She said this was the charge sheet, the prosecution document that I was served with under the Taliban. So I said to her what was the charge, the crime or charge against you, she said to me, educating children, that was a crime under the Taliban. We ought to be fantastically proud of the way in which we in the international community and our British troops have assisted that liberation and given phenomenal hope particularly for women and children where none was there before.

DAVID FROST: Right, but we don't have, various people are saying, including Menzies Campbell, we don't have an exit strategy do we?

JACK STRAW: We do indeed have an exit strategy and if you're, of course we do, I don't think that our troops are going to be there, the combat troops, for very long, I, nobody can say for absolutely certain and nobody is saying that because war is uncertain business but their purpose in Afghanistan, the combat troops, is a very specific purpose to root out the remaining Al Queda terrorists and once that is done our troops will leave and as for those troops involved in the international stabilisation and assistance force which is confined by international law at the moment to Kabul and the surrounding area, well we said we'd be there for a matter of months as a lead authority it's going to be extended for a little while but again in the long march of history this is a very limited operation.

DAVID FROST: But are you happy that Turkey will take over?

JACK STRAW: I think they will.

DAVID FROST: You think they will, not sure?

JACK STRAW: Can't be absolutely certain, you never can in this life until things are absolutely pinned down but I've been involved myself in a lot of discussions with the Turkish government...

DAVID FROST: It says here somewhere they want £300 million to do it?

JACK STRAW: Well there's an issue about their own economy and they've been given a great deal of support by the international monetary fund, there's a separate issue about compensation for the marginal cost, for running this operation in Afghanistan and they've been in discussions about that with the United States but they are anxious to do it if the conditions are right, they are in a trickier position than we were because of the history in Afghanistan and the fact that in the past the Turkish nation has been associated with Uzbeks, Tajikstan and the Tajiks in the north of Afghanistan and not with the whole of Afghanistan. But if you're asking me will I put money on them doing it, yes I would, am I absolutely certain they will until they, as it were, signed on the dotted line, no.

DAVID FROST: One last thing on Afghanistan, do you think Osama bin Laden is still alive and living in Afghanistan?

JACK STRAW: None of us can be certain about that, what we can be certain about is that the organisation which he led with such devastating effect and which perpetrated the atrocities of the 11th of September is now profoundly weakened but we have to make sure that its capacity to continue with such atrocities is totally eliminated.

DAVID FROST: Coming on to Iraq, Jack, if it's decided to take military action against Iraq and there are all sorts of hints but nothing's been decided I know finally on that, but if, if it were decided to take military action against Iraq would we need a new UN Security Council Resolution or mandate or not?

JACK STRAW: David you're ahead of yourself with great respect, we're not anywhere near there yet and my judgement won't be there for quite some time. If you're asking me would any action that were taken have to be subject to international law and our international obligations the answer to that is an emphatic yes. What needs to be remembered about the problems that the whole of the world has with Iraq is that we have this problem because of Iraq's clear breach of its international obligation, its international law. Why is everybody worried about Iraq and I've talked to a lot of people about this, why people are worried about Iraq is this, first of all it's one of the very few countries in the world in the last 50 years to have invaded another country without any justification, as it did Kuwait in 1990. It then refused to accept the original United Nations obligations, there had to be a war backed by a very wide coalition and over the last 12 years nine separate United Nations Security council resolutions have been imposed on Iraq with 27 separate obligations, they have refused to implement 23 of those and the problem of Iraq would virtually disappear if they implemented those resolutions as they could and particularly from a, just say particularly if they readmitted the weapons inspectors and allowed those weapons inspectors to do their job freely and properly as they failed to do up until the time they had to leave in 1998.

DAVID FROST: Right, right, well nobody admires the Iraqi regime or Saddam Hussein obviously, but the thing is, you said anything you do will be according to international law, does international law as it now stands give you a mandate to attack Iraq or only the no fly zone. I mean do we, in order to comply with, what do we have to do to comply with international law because you must have thought about that even if it's not six months and the nation should be discussing it?

JACK STRAW: Of course they should, yes. As I said, to repeat the point, we have never been involved in any military action in our history since the establishment of the United Nations without the backing of international law and we're not going to be because we are one of the leading members of the United Nations, Security Council permanent members.

DAVID FROST: So do we have a mandate to invade Iraq?

JACK STRAW: We don't have a mandate to invade Iraq now, no, what we need to do, what we need to do however is to ensure the full compliance by Iraq, but by Iraq with these United Nation obligations. Now...if Iraq refuses to comply with these clear obligations that have already been imposed upon them by the United Nations Security Council then the position in international law may very well change. But the crucial thing that all of us should concentrate on is Iraq's failure, current palpable failure to comply with its international obligations rather than speculating about military action. Nobody wants military action, no one wants military action at all and the way out of that lies very clearly in Saddam Hussein's hands.

DAVID FROST: Understood but as you just said we don't have a mandate to invade Iraq at the moment, of course not as you said, do we have a mandate at the moment to bomb Iraq?

JACK STRAW: Well I'm not going to get into speculation about this.

DAVID FROST: No but it is a simple question, I'm not saying you're going to bomb it but do we have a mandate at the moment to bomb?

JACK STRAW: There is a clear mandate at the moment within the no fly zone.

DAVID FROST: Yes, yes.

JACK STRAW: As to decisions that will be taken or could be taken at a later date, that depends fully on the circumstances. You ask me is there a necessity for United Nations Security Council Resolution, there could be, there may not be, depends entirely on the circumstances and the 1998 action that was taken was justified in international law and plainly justified on the basis of breach of existing United Nations Security Council resolutions. But on the fundamental issue, do you need to ensure that any action that is taken is justified in international law, there is only and can be only one answer and that is yes.

DAVID FROST: Because there was this report, wasn't there, today that said that Whitehall says that, that in fact it would be, Whitehall warns attack on Saddam would be illegal?

JACK STRAW: Well I'm not going to speculate about different people who offer different legal advice but I've already made the position clear David.

DAVID FROST: Yes.

JACK STRAW: Which is that we are a country, we're a nation that has signed up to the United Nations, which is profoundly committed to international law and therefore it is against our duty as well as in my judgement against our self-interest for us to do anything which is contrary to international law. We haven't done it, we're not going to do it and the reason why our military action in Afghanistan was so plainly justified was precisely because we had the full backing of the international community.

DAVID FROST: And in terms of, in terms of Iraq, the Iraqi situation at the moment, have you ever seen incontrovertible evidence that there's a link between Saddam and Al Quida or do we claim that there is or there isn't?

JACK STRAW: I have not seen incontrovertible evidence of any link between Saddam Hussein and Al Queda and that's never been part of the argument that we have advanced from the British government about Iraq. It's a quite separate matter. Why is Iraq, why does Iraq pose a threat to the world? Iraq poses a threat to the world because of its manufacture and development of weapons of mass destruction. How do we know they're doing that? Well we know from some of the work of the inspectors, but we know it above all from the fact that Saddam Hussein has used these weapons himself against the Iranians and against his own people so we don't have to look in the crystals, we can actually see all this in the book. He poses this threat, he says, the Iraqi regime says well we're no longer threat, the question then for them is why did he make life absolutely impossible for the weapons inspectors in 1998 so they had to leave, they simply couldn't operate. And why do you continue to flout international law and to refuse to allow back these weapons inspectors in conditions in which they can freely do their job. That's the issue.

DAVID FROST: And one of the other problems with the situation Jack, isn't it, that we have a majority, according to polls, opinion polls, a majority of people in this country oppose the idea of military action against Iraq. Now I don't think there's anything, particular war or battle on record where the British public was not behind the action, I mean in this case we have a situation where at this moment in time the public are not behind the idea of action against Iraq and indeed a great many of your back-benchers aren't as well?

JACK STRAW: David as I said...

DAVID FROST: You're going to have to convert them?

JACK STRAW: Well that question does not arise at the moment because there are no decisions whatever being made about military action against Iraq either by the United Kingdom or by the United States and the point I've often made about the United States is that if you look at the decisions that President Bush has taken in the last 18 months since he, he's been President, or in that position, the decisions have been careful, cautious, proportionate and thought through over a long period and none of us have any reason to believe that any future decisions will not be the same. What I think however, as far as British public opinion is concerned is that the overwhelmingly people in Britain understand the threat that is posed by Saddam Hussein and wish the Iraqi government to take the action which they need to take under international law to do with threat that peacefully by complying with their international obligations. If they were to do that, if they were to do that Saddam Hussein was to re-admit the weapons inspectors, have the weapons inspectors able to do their job in conditions where they could move about freely, could ensure a proper inspection was taking place in a way that, that they were prevented from doing so up until 1998 and then gave Iraq a clean bill of health, that would be the end of the matter. Why shouldn't it be?

DAVID FROST: But there is this controversy also in the Labour Party, what is your response to all these headlines in the last two days saying that a great many Labour back-benchers are deeply full of misgiving about this proposed policy for Iraq, that someone's going to be a stalking horse against Tony Blair and that Charles Clarke has already been identified as Tony Blair's successor, what's your comment on all that?

JACK STRAW: Reporters in search of a story and having difficulty and my overall comment is look, this government, which is now coming up to its fifth anniversary, is one where I believe and I believe the British public believe that we have done a pretty good job. I was in my constituency...

DAVID FROST: Well not this weekend they don't?

JACK STRAW: Well but I think the British public judge things over more than a single weekend. I was in my constituency over the weekend, on Friday and Saturday, talking to people about the health service in Blackburn, health service unquestionably has improved for putting millions of pounds into new hospital services in the town, we're getting a new hospital, money for which I campaigned for 20 years and we simply couldn't get the money from the Conservatives, we got the money. I went to a school where they've got a 50-year-old prefab in which the children are served their school dinners - I had one too and it reminded me of my school dinners in periods just after the war, almost identical building, but the school is now a building site because they're building a new hall, canteen, three new classrooms and there is a transformation taking place in our primary schools as a result of this government. The economy David, you don't see that in the newspaper today but where are, let me just say this, where are they...

DAVID FROST: We're just coming up to the end, you haven't really answered the question, what do you, what do you say to all those Labour MPs who are profoundly disquietened today?

JACK STRAW: Well what I say and they haven't talked to me about their profound disquiet, there are some Labour MPs who for sure have got questions about Iraq, I understand those questions and I have sought in a series of meetings to answer them in a similar way to which I'm answering those today. If you ask Labour MPs whether they think the Conservative Party has suddenly changed its spots and has moved from the kind of position that it had over the 18 years of Margaret Thatcher, some dramatic change, they haven't. If they ask, if you ask Labour MPs if they are proud of what we've done on the economy lowest unemployment for 25 years, lowest inflation for 40 years, the fourth largest economy in the world and as I see again from my constituents a government which is seriously tackling poverty with the minimum wage, working families tax credit. And so they will say they're really, really proud of us.

DAVID FROST: So you would dismiss any thought of a challenge to Tony Blair?

JACK STRAW: Well people can if they, if they wish but I would be astonished if they were...

DAVID FROST: We'll take a break there if we may Jack and get the latest updates on the news.

[BREAK FOR NEWS]

DAVID FROST: And Jack thank you very much indeed.

JACK STRAW: Thank you.

DAVID FROST: We're right at the end of our time and so that's all we've got time for. Next week is Easter Sunday so we won't be on the air but do join us the week after that. For now my thanks to all my guests, top of the morning, good morning.

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