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BBC BREAKFAST WITH FROST INTERVIEW: LORD MACLAURIN CHAIRMAN, ENGLAND AND WALES CRICKET BOARD, IMRAN KHAN FORMER PAKISTAN CAPTAIN and MIKE GATTING FORMER ENGLAND CAPTAIN , MAY 27TH, 2001
Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.
DAVID FROST: Well this week Paul Condon published his long-awaited report into the scandals and corruption in the world of cricket and with me now to discuss his findings, the former Pakistan Captain, Imran Khan. Good morning Imran.
IMRAN KHAN: Good morning.
DAVID FROST: In addition to him, Lord Ian MacLaurin, top of the day to you Ian. And of course Mike Gatting the former England Captain. Let's, let's begin with your reaction Imran, to this report?
IMRAN KHAN: Well very concisely I think that you can only stop crime if you, if you make sure that crime does not pay, the only problem with the report is that I do not feel that it, it has come anywhere near to catching the criminals who have been involved in it. There are no clues in that, there's no hint. All it, there's a lot of speculation and innuendo but there doesn't seem to be anywhere you can catch people who have been involved in match fixing because it's very difficult to catch them. So, so I mean I do not see how in future, how much match fixing goes on we don't know, but how will we catch it.
DAVID FROST: Alright, Mike what was your reaction?
MIKE GATTING: I thought that the report was quite a good report but as Imran has said, whether it's through legal matters or not that they can't name or put the finger on somebody, I don't know. But I would like to think that at the end of the day we can draw a line under it, they can still keep investigating but I think we've got to put some plans in place that will actually stop people from actually doing it now, ie making sure that the administrators know a little bit more about it, make sure the players - because it really is down to the players themselves and, and there should be some self-regulation there and if the players take onboard what, what's been, what we've seen here that, I mean I can't believe that when you play for your country that you can actually throw a game, I just find that very strange. So I just hope that they can keep on investigating and they can keep on pushing things forward.
DAVID FROST: Ian as Chairman of the England and Wales Cricket Board, you come at it from a slightly different point of view because it's as a legislator in a sense, you've, you've got to decide what should be done, although obviously the ICC have got to do that as well. But what was your reaction to the report and to the point that the Imran made about how do you catch these people?
IAN MACLAURIN: Well I think you've just got to realise that this is an interim report and Paul Condon has said this is a steeplechase it's not a sprint. He has said quite categorically that he thinks he might be able to finish his inquiries by the World Cup in 2003 so let's look at it and see what it is, it's an interim report, he makes a number of recommendations, we have to get this cancer out of the game, the most important next step is the meeting in June when the ICC meet collectively at Lords to go through this report and I agree with Imran, we've got to find these people, we've got to get them out of the game and the game then will have a fair face to the world. But at the moment there's a lot of doubt about cricket.
DAVID FROST: And what about the suggestions that Paul Condon's made more than 20 suggestions, are some of those, do you all think, very helpful
IAN MACLAURIN: I think
DAVID FROST: I mean one wonders about cordless telephones and so on?
IAN MACLAURIN: Well I think, I think you've got to be sensible, these people are all adults, you can't put them in little glass cages and say they can't talk to anybody or they can't use their phones but I think the, the outcome hopefully of the June meeting will be all Test playing nations agreeing a procedure and then we all follow that procedure.
DAVID FROST: And a lot of the betting, apparently, goes on in Asia where people bet probably more than they do in this country and somebody's suggested maybe if cricketers were, were paid more there would be less corruption, but I mean you can never really pay people enough not to be corrupt if they want to be corrupt, can you?
IMRAN KHAN: You see greed has nothing to do with the amount of money you get because in Pakistan when these allegations started the players were paid better than ever in our history before and you know coming back to the first point, the only person who's been caught has been Hans Cronje and that was by a sheer fluke, I mean it wasn't an inquiry that got it, or wasn't some investigation, it just happened that someone was investigating some other crime and they managed to, to nab him. In Pakistan we've had more inquiries than any other cricketing country, we've had four inquiries into match fixing since 1994 and nothing has come out of it, I mean the, the, the last inquiry recommended to fine players because they did not cooperate, not because they were involved in it. So I come back to that point, unless there is some mechanism which comes out how we can catch these players, I did not see that in the report, the recommendations were good but I do not think they're going to stop match fixing.
DAVID FROST: What about the references to County Cricket, we see these big, big games in Sharjar and various other places, Mike, but the, but the suggestion that Lancashire and Essex made a deal at one point and that there was, it was going on in County Cricket, it seems almost incredible?
MIKE GATTING: Well I think it's a bit of a red-herring that, because when you're playing three-day cricket, as Imran will know, he played a lot of county cricket, there are times when it rains for a day and you as a side or, or as a time have got to negotiate with the other captain to try and get some sort of a game going as much for the crowd as anybody else. And so, so you sort of sit down and you negotiate, at least two sides then have actually got a chance of actually winning, it's not quite like saying well one said is only going to win. So it did go on certainly but it was done for, certainly for the spectators and also to try and get a result but at least both sides had a chance, a lot of the time they'd have been draws anyway.
DAVID FROST: And what about the situation now Ian, I mean Paul Condon seems to say that because of all the publicity there's less of it going on now but still obviously any is far too much?
IAN MACLAURIN: Well I think that's right, I think that anybody who's involved in it now has a serious problem but if it is, as Sir Paul has suggested that you've got bookmakers, very large bookmakers in it and players are wedded in to that sort of mafia-type operation, it might be very difficult for some players to get out of it. You know going back on what Mike said, there were these negotiations for, for results but absolutely right for the game of cricket, I think match fixing started probably in Sharja and places like that where a lot of meaningless, really meaningless one-day cricket took place and betting went on there. I think probably you'd home in on that as the area to look.
DAVID FROST: Thank you all very much indeed for that review.
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