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BBC BREAKFAST WITH FROST INTERVIEW WITH PRIME MINISTER TONY BLAIR, MAY 13TH, 2001

Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used

DAVID FROST: Peter, thank you very much indeed, alas we couldn't hear all of that conversation here but I did notice that Trevor Kennedy [sic] in profile is looking more and more like Sean Connery, I don't know whether you agree Prime Minister?

TONY BLAIR: Well I'm sure Trevor would aspire to that at any rate.

DAVID FROST: Trevor Kavanagh of course and, now let's begin with the subject that's dominated this week Prime Minister which is tax, you have made clear now for everybody that there will be no rise in basic standard rates or higher rates of tax during the next Parliament?

TONY BLAIR: Well as we said to people they have to wait for the manifesto for the details to be published but I just point out to you that in this Parliament of course we haven't raised the basic and the top rate of tax, indeed we cut the basic rate of tax.

DAVID FROST: And you're not going to change that?

TONY BLAIR: Well wait to see the pledges in the manifesto but I think it's important that we have a balanced approach, that we make sure that at the same time as we're investing in public services, and we are, as you know, big investments going in, but we're also increasing incentives and rewards for people.

DAVID FROST: But at the same time William Hague said on Friday "I challenge him to say that he will not increase taxes at all and if he is not clear on that then people will know, everyone will know that he plans yet more stealth taxes"?

TONY BLAIR: I don't think he's prepared to give that commitment himself, is he?

DAVID FROST: Apparently not, indeed¿

TONY BLAIR: No.

DAVID FROST: Apparently in an interview in the Financial Times about two weeks ago he didn't, he didn't say it there?

TONY BLAIR: I mean the Chancellor's got to take his decision every year obviously but the pledges that we made on tax last time we have kept to, of course one of the reasons why there's been an increase in revenue is there's so many more people in work and the economy is stronger, we have mortgages low, we have inflation low, we have more people in work, we have living standards rising. Now there's still a massive amount to do but it is also very important we get the investment into public services, but so you've got to balance whatever you're doing on the tax side, things like child tax credit, working families tax credit, cuts in the basic rate with the investment of public services.

DAVID FROST: But are you, you're not going to increase the tax burden next time like you did this time are you?

TONY BLAIR: Well we published our figures, I mean one of the advantages of being in government is you publish in the Budget book and your forward look at where the tax burden is going to be, but I've never made any secret...

DAVID FROST: Are you saying no more stealth taxes?

TONY BLAIR: Well when people talk about stealth taxes I mean I think they really mean petrol duty, there's barely any tax more visible than that...

DAVID FROST: Those two in the first year...

TONY BLAIR: Yeah but in the first couple of years of the government when we came into office we had a situation where national debt had doubled, we had a £28 billion borrowing requirement, we were paying out more on interest payments on the debt than we were spending on the school system, now we kept the fuel duty escalator of the Conservatives, we did, it is true, make sure that we got rid of that deficit in the first couple of years, we made changes in advance, corporation tax and so on, but it's as a result of that that we have the economic stability and now have the funds to invest in our public services.

DAVID FROST: But as the IFS said this week, you do agree with their figures, don't you, that the total public sector receipts, as a percentage of GDP have increased by 2.9 per cent from 37.6 per cent to 40.5 per cent or even under Gordon, Gordon's formula with the working family's tax credit, from 35.2 per cent to 37.7 per cent, by 2.9 per cent or 2.5 per cent, that's absolutely true, now there are lots of reasons for it, like prosperity as you've said, but the tax burden, well let's say the tax take has risen by approximately 20 to £24 billion pounds hasn't it.

TONY BLAIR: That is a very, very important point because, I mean the figures are set out there and as I say they're set out in the budget so there's nothing new about them and the idea, you know, that you hide them, I mean they're there, they're published in the day of the Budget, but when you say tax take, that is very important because the same organisation has also said that of course the principle reason for those figures is because of the increased activity in the economy and high levels of employment. If you look at the biggest drop, for example, in the overall tax take in the last 20 years or so it occurred in the early '90s when the country plunged into recession. Now obviously if you've got a million more people in work and incomes are rising then the amount of revenue that the government takes rises but that is important so that we can then, as we are able to, give tax cuts to people, particularly targeted on families, but also make the investment in our public services. And if you don't run the economy properly and you go back into debt which is what would happen with the Conservative proposals, mortgages go up, you repeat the mistakes of the early '90s, you get recession, higher unemployment, spending cuts and then as we had in the early '90s finally tax rises.

DAVID FROST: But would you say therefore that the tax take in the next Parliament, for all those reasons, the tax take will not be as great as it was in the last Parliament?

TONY BLAIR: What we're saying is what we set out already in the Budget book...that depends as I say to you, on a whole range of factors including the strength of the economy and, you know the choice for people is quite clear, it is of course perfectly possible to take a surplus as we have at the moment, we turned round the national debt, I mean the national debt has declined massively so we're saving now about £5 billion a year on interest payments on the debt. We are also saving a very large sum of money as well on benefit bills because of the numbers of people at work and the reduction in unemployment, again partly through some of the measures like the new deal. Now all those things mean that you're then able to run a stable economy and get the investment into public services and I think, you know the most interesting thing about the campaign so far frankly has been the, just the focus so far as we're concerned on those two key things, a stable well-performing economy that then allows you to make the investment in schools and in hospitals and police and transport that people want to see.

DAVID FROST: But would you for instance rule out things like extending the scope of VAT?

TONY BLAIR: Well wait for our manifesto for that, you know we gave a pledge on that last time and again we kept to that pledge, indeed we, we cut the VAT on fuel as we said we would do and had the utility tax to fund the new deal but if you don't mind we'll publish the full details when we publish our manifesto.

DAVID FROST: Well mentioning the campaign there Prime Minister, looking at it so far, looking at the papers for instance today, the polls this morning were very good from your point of view, or positive from your point of view, but the comment on the first week of the campaign was not and they said things had been a fiasco the first week and so on and so forth and a number of Labour people were saying bring back Peter Mandelson, now, as the person who once said that your life in politics would not be complete without getting the Labour Party to love Peter Mandelson you must be cock-a-hoop about that?

TONY BLAIR: No well I think it's interesting that the sort of summary of the first week is that the public are with us but the media are a bit iffy, but I'll settle for that. And I think, look what happens, I mean it's all very predictable, what happens is you either focus on the process, I mean who goes where and does what and what were they wearing or on policy and I think, that what's interesting I think, reading the Sunday papers today which is not a joy I often indulge in but since I was on the programme this morning, the three things that have really come across this week surely are the lowest mortgages for almost 40 years, the big fall in NHS waiting lists, although there is still a very great deal to do and then a Conservative Manifesto that I think people just see through completely. I mean nothing to say about schools, hospitals, the economy, jobs, but simply had a pretty opportunistic pitch towards...

DAVID FROST: But obviously the thing of sacking Peter Mandelson must have been the toughest thing you had to do, your dearest friend or one of your dearest friends and so on, when you read the Hammond report do you fear that you might have been over-hasty?

TONY BLAIR: No I mean I gave the reasons at the time as to why Peter left and I was pleased that the Hammond inquiry cleared him of any impropriety as I've always said that it would.

DAVID FROST: But if there was no impropriety why did he have to leave?

TONY BLAIR: Well you know for the reasons I gave at the time and I don't really want to go back over¿

DAVID FROST: Would you like to see him back in government at some point in the next Parliament?

TONY BLAIR: No again I made it clear when I spoke at the time.

DAVID FROST: But you still speak to him?

TONY BLAIR: Of course¿

DAVID FROST: Take his advice, seek his advice?

TONY BLAIR: Of course I still speak to him as I speak to, to many people and he remains somebody who's a friend of mine and somebody of enormous ability.

DAVID FROST: What about the specifics of the new term if you get it, what are the, something specific that, what are going to be the priorities, for instance of the first Queen's Speech?

TONY BLAIR: Well I think that for us, I mean we like to think that we have broken the mould in terms of how people have perceived Labour governments and we, we believe that we have run an effective and competent economic policy that's brought greater prosperity to the country. But I think that our first Queen's Speech if we are elected has got to have three Bills at its centre, education, crime and welfare reform and these are linked because it's only by running a stable economy we can get the investment into education and it's only if we're getting people off benefit and into work through welfare reform that we've got the money to invest in education and all those things are linked together again because if you are creating a society in which you're giving people chances and opportunities then you can demand the responsibility in return which is the reason why the tougher measures on crime and criminal justice should be there. And you know one of the things I'll be saying in my speech later today to my own constituency when I accept re-nomination as the candidate is that the whole essence of what we tried to do in our first term is give the British people a different political choice, no longer do they have to choose between a party of economy efficiency and a party of social compassion, it is possible, indeed essential in today's world to have both running together, a stable and decently run economy gives you the chance to invest in the future for one purpose, so that everybody, not just a few at the top get the chance to succeed.

DAVID FROST: So what for instance will be the specifics on education for instance, the Education Bill?

TONY BLAIR: Well we've made great progress in the first term on primary schools, I think people recognise that, best ever test results for 11 year olds, a lot of capital investment. We've now got to do the same for secondary schools and we've got to move beyond the old debate about, you know is it comprehensive or grammar schools, the truth is we want a diverse secondary school system where you've got a range of different types of schools, specialist schools, church schools, city academies offering high standards of education to many, many children in this country at the moment who despite the best efforts of teachers and schools don't get the educational chances they need and there's nothing more important for us as a country. I mean education was the priority last time, it remains the priority this time.

DAVID FROST: It's been slower though, the new hope, I mean you said quite, everything takes longer than you, you expected?

TONY BLAIR: Well I came across a comment of Kennedy's the other day when he said when first coming into government that things, things, the thing that has surprised him was that things are as, as bad as he'd said they were during the course of the campaign.

DAVID FROST: Yes, yes, yes.

TONY BLAIR: And I think that, for us, for the health service and schools and law and order particularly, it's just important people realise, I mean when we came to office the number of nursing places and training places had been cut, the number of beds had been cut, there was no proper capital investment programme, funding per pupil in schools had fallen, you know, quite significantly in the three years before we came to office, again no capital investment and police numbers were falling. Now the difficulty was, was this, with the big debt overhang that we had to deal with we had to sort that out before we got the investment in, and sure, you know, for the first two years we ran a very, very tough fiscal policy indeed and, and obviously we paid a certain price for that. But the point is now you've got huge increases in the number of teacher applications, big increase in the number of nurses applications and indeed nurses in the health service and now a big increase in the number of police applications and the numbers of police rising. So we can, you know we can get that investment in and sustain it but only having sorted the economy out first.

DAVID FROST: Well of course if primary schools, as you say, you're going to eventually get the pledge by, by the September or whatever, but obviously then you've got to move on to secondary schools where classes have, have grown in size. What about welfare?

TONY BLAIR: By .3 of a pupil, I mean sometimes people say oh well class sizes have gone up, actually overall class sizes have come down, it's true in secondary schools they've risen by .3 of a pupil but that is, they've been rising, you know for ten years or more and actually in the last year I think they've been more or less stable and with the new money we're now getting through to schools, if they want to they could prioritise that by spending it on teachers.

DAVID FROST: What, what are you going to do about welfare then?

TONY BLAIR: I think the essential thing about welfare is...

DAVID FROST: In that field...

TONY BLAIR: Is still to realise that there are one in six, not as many as when we came to office, but still one in six non-pensioner households where nobody works. So you've still got a large number of people on benefit who could be at work and if we gave them the chance to work would work and what we want to do is change the whole basis upon which the employment service and the benefit service work so that the first question you ask when someone is in receipt of benefit or unemployed is not, where's your benefit but where's the job for you. You see even with the economy, very high levels of employment, the highest we've ever got, we've still got a million vacancies in this country, you know we've still got large numbers of people who could be at work and of course as you reduce the benefit bills, as we managed to do, you know, if you leave aside where we spent money on things like pensioners and the working families tax credit, the actual bills of failure have fallen in real terms for the first time in years partly because of things like the new deal. Now we want to extend that and we want to say to people we'll give you the job chances and we'll give you where you need it the child-care, for example, to help you do things but if, you know, you can get a job it's your obligation to get one.

DAVID FROST: And what about on crime, just before you answer that question, whatever happened to child curfew orders, there hasn't been a single one?

TONY BLAIR: No well partly of course that is because they, when we introduced them they were for kids up to the age of ten and the feedback we've had from local authorities is that's really far too young so we intend extending them up to the age, I think, of 15.

DAVID FROST: So what specifically do you want to do in the area of crime?

TONY BLAIR: Well there are two main things, the first is to take a series of measures against what I would call the petty crime that really angers people but often isn't treated seriously enough, sort of vandalism, graffiti and so on, with tougher penalties, the ability to issue fixed penalty notices on the part of the police so that you don't have to go through the whole court procedure, that's one aspect. And the second aspect are the changes in the criminal justice system in terms of the rules of evidence, the way that the courts work, the way that we treat and target in particular persistent offenders.

DAVID FROST: So do you want to see more people in prison or less?

TONY BLAIR: Well I don't think...

DAVID FROST: Immediately? TONY BLAIR: I don't think...

DAVID FROST: In the long run one day you'd obviously, it would be nobody, but...

TONY BLAIR: Yeah of course.

DAVID FROST: But in, but to test of your success will be more people in prison or less people?

TONY BLAIR: I don't think that will be the test of the success, the test of the success will be as crime down. We are actually as part of our plans envisaging more prison places because we, we will need particularly with persistent offenders to make sure that we're not just sentencing for the crime but actually sentencing and taking into account their own previous record and their likelihood of reoffending and that goes alongside a whole lot of other measures incidentally to deal particularly with the links between drugs and crime. Now you know as I say partly because often some of these debates don't focus a great deal on policy, some of these things have been obscured in the past few months, but the proposals we've published on criminal justice are about as far-reaching as anything in the post war years.

DAVID FROST: Every morning on the trial by jury thing, of course everyone picks up the quotes you made and Jack Straw made in 1995/1996/1997 that tampering with jury trials or reducing them is unthinkable and that you've changed dramatically on that?

TONY BLAIR: Oh well we have changed, I mean we did so for a reason, that when we looked into it and analysed it we found that the system was being abused, that actually in Scotland for example they have had a similar system for ages, without any of the problems that people say would happen here and I simply say to people, if we want to tackle the problems of criminal justice properly then we've got to make sure that we have a proper system fit for the 21st century and I don't believe we have at the moment.

DAVID FROST: One, one question, one story in the, in the papers today when you were going through the Sunday papers that you probably needed like a whole in the head was the story that Hindujas were going to be back in town, G P and S P, and it came out this week that the Prince's Trust when offered money by the Hindujas checked with the Intelligence Agencies, MI5 or MI6 who, who warned off, warned them off the Hindujas and so they didn't take the money. In retrospect do you wish you'd done the same thing, not taken the money?

TONY BLAIR: Well I think they were perfectly entitled to give to the, from their Foundation which gives money to vast numbers of different things, I honestly don't know anything about the Prince's Trust at all.

DAVID FROST: So that they're entitled, they were entitled to do that?

TONY BLAIR: Well I mean you know, of course they are, they're entitled to, to give money to a public cause.

DAVID FROST: And, so I mean in terms of, in terms of what the critics say, people list, in terms of old-style politics and so on, they list things like the Hindujas or Keith Vaz or Geoffrey Robinson and say, there you are, you see, there's no difference between Tory sleaze and Labour sleaze, do you feel that sleaze is endemic to any political party?

TONY BLAIR: No I don't and I think that on the whole British politics is about the cleanest anywhere in the world and I would just remind people, I mean first of all, you know for example in relation to Keith Vaz people keep raising these allegations and each time they're disproved they just move on to another allegation and you know you've got to have evidence if you're going to, to say someone's done something wrong. But if you look at politics as a whole we will be fighting this election campaign as a country for the first time with proper rules in place on the funding of political parties, on openness and transparency and so on and people just, you know they leave all that to the side when...

DAVID FROST: But going into this election Keith Vaz for instance, Geoffrey Robinson have your full support?

TONY BLAIR: Look in respect of Keith Vaz, you know as I keep saying to people if you provide evidence that he has done something wrong then we look at it, but for example when the media said he'd done something terrible in relation to the Hindujas and all that passport nonsense, I mean I looked into it, couldn't find anything remotely improper. The Hammond inquiry then looked into it, cleared him completely and you know you can't say someone should be thrown out of public life because someone makes an allegation against them.

DAVID FROST: And what about the, this is not sleaze, absolutely not sleaze but this is just old-style politics, right, nothing actionable in this at all, but this, these stories all week of three Labour MPs being persuaded by the offer of peerages to give up their seats to people that Labour needed in those seats, wanted in those seats and so on, there's nothing sleazy about it but isn't it a bit old-style politics for you?

TONY BLAIR: Well it's not at all as it's portrayed, I mean these are members of Parliament who are perfectly entitled to decide, especially, you know over the age of 60 or whatever, that they'll stand down, and you've got good young people who want to become members of Parliament, I think that's great and it's a good thing that, that you've got people coming forward and wanting to stand for Parliament. I think one of the biggest problems we have is actually attracting decent young people into politics today.

DAVID FROST: But it's the offer of peerages that people...

TONY BLAIR: But people, the question of who goes to the House of Lords as Labour nominations and I make the Labour nominations in the same way that William Hague makes the Conservative nominations, those are decisions for a different time and nobody gets offered anything, it's a question of, of I mean I make that decision in the same way, as I say, the other party leaders do. But having good young people who want to go into politics is in my view important.

DAVID FROST: Yes, no so there's no deal, because I mean Mark Fisher said he'd been offered a peerage?

TONY BLAIR: Well I don't know, I've not spoken to Mark at all.

DAVID FROST: So as far as you're concerned you have no evidence that that in fact happened?

TONY BLAIR: Correct.

DAVID FROST: What about, what about Europe, Prime Minister, what is your, just in terms of timetable, people say that from the decision to have a referendum through to notes and coins in our pockets will take a minimum of three years, so that means presumably that you would have to start that process in less than two years or less than one year if you were going to have a four-year Parliament, or can you really do half of it before an election and half afterwards, no probably not?

TONY BLAIR: Sorry I'm not¿quite with you...

DAVID FROST: How long into this Parliament can you still kick off the process given that it takes three years?

TONY BLAIR: Well I think you can't be sure of exactly how long it, it would take but we'd said that we will make the assessment in the first half of the Parliament now, exactly as to when that will be, you know you can't judge at this stage.

DAVID FROST: So you're not sure it's three years, you might be able to do it quicker?

TONY BLAIR: Well you may be able to, I mean, but that's a, obviously that's a technical issue and presumably since the notes and coins come into circulation in the rest of Europe in January 2002 then there will be a fair amount of expertise that's been developed as a result of that.

DAVID FROST: And in terms of another election though, would you say that the common wisdom is true, that the whole process has to be completed within the same Parliament, that it would be chaotic if you got halfway through it and then had a general election? Do you think it has to be all in one Parliament?

TONY BLAIR: Well I mean certainly the anticipation is that that's exactly what, I mean as we've always said that the anticipation is that that is what you would do but we have, you know, the only thing we have said is that we make the assessment within the first half of the Parliament and the important thing on the Euro is that if we make a recommendation to people to join the single currency they have the final say in a referendum.

DAVID FROST: And if you as Prime Minister decide to hold that referendum and the, and you, you campaign for it obviously, but that the, but the people in their wisdom decide against?

TONY BLAIR: Yes.

DAVID FROST: What you have recommended, can you survive as Prime Minister in those circumstances?

TONY BLAIR: Well I think we'd better wait 'til those circumstances have come about, if they ever do.

DAVID FROST: You're not sure?

TONY BLAIR: I think it's not a wise question to get into now before we've had a, had either a referendum or a result of it.

DAVID FROST: There was another thing in the, in your interview with Andrew Dilnot when you said that thing very clearly about "if I'm elected it is for the whole Parliament", it's a statement of fact really, that's the basis on which you stand, I mean straightforward words, that would mean therefore, if you were going to stay for the whole Parliament, that you will therefore have to lead Labour into a third election because otherwise you won't have stayed for the whole Parliament?

TONY BLAIR: Well you always, when you're asked questions like this as the Prime Minister, you always say and should say it's for the British people ultimately to decide who's the Prime Minister after this election. But of course as the leader of the Labour Party now going into the election I stand for a full term. I mean I've always said that.

DAVID FROST: So that means you'll be standing at the next election as leader?

TONY BLAIR: Well let's get this election...

DAVID FROST: Other wise, other wise¿

TONY BLAIR: I understand what you're saying, I think let us make sure that we win this election before we start talking about future ones.

DAVID FROST: What do you think is your greatest weakness as a politician and your greatest strength?

TONY BLAIR: I think my greatest strength, I think my greatest strength and weaknesses probably two sides of the same coin in a way, I'm, you know I'm a politician basically by instinct, I mean I don't, I don't get driven in terms of very strict ideology. I've certain values that I believe in very clearly and I believe particularly in the concept of New Labour, I mean I actually believe in it. I mean people often think this is a, you know you can't be principled in politics unless you're either the sort of old-style socialists or a Thatcherite, I don't accept that, I think that a moderate sensible centre-ground Labour Party is what I believe in and I think that's a strength for me. I think the flip-side of it is that it can occasionally be a weakness because you, know in terms of, of my own political party sometimes has run me into difficulties. But it's a weakness I'm content to live with.

DAVID FROST: And in terms...

TONY BLAIR: The rest of the strengths and weaknesses, I mean probably history¿

DAVID FROST: And in terms of looking at, at the way the government's run, when people are either complaining that there's not so much pressure from Cabinet rule it's more bilaterals with the Prime Minister, or when they're saying with a holiday coming up that you're looking, you're looking knackered or something, understandably with a combination of the baby and midnight calls with George Bush or whatever it is, but do you think in fact as they say that you delegate too little?

TONY BLAIR: No I don't, I think you end up in two circumstances as a Prime Minister, I mean either you like to keep a firm grip on what is happening and drive it forward in which case you're accused of being dictatorial or you don't in which case you're accused of being weak and I think probably if you have to choose you opt for the first. But it's, it's important I think if you're trying to drive through big change, I mean when we had to put through the chances, first of all the Labour Party and then the country, you know the difficult decisions on the economy and education changes, health changes, welfare changes, I've just described to you some of the things that can, would be in a Queen's speech if we're elected, you've got to drive those things from the top. You know things like the Northern Ireland peace process, with something like Kosovo comes up, it's not possible to opt out of it, foot and mouth disease, you know when something as serious as that happens the idea that the Prime Minister can say, oh look you know you guys go off and bother yourselves about it while I sit there and twiddle my thumbs, I mean it doesn't work like that.

DAVID FROST: Who say that nothing really got done until the Prime Minister got involved?

TONY BLAIR: No that's incredibly unfair on the people who, who were working straightaway from the outset. But remember when we first began the foot and mouth outbreak and dealing with it the criticism was that we weren't being vigorous enough. Now of course the criticism is that we've been too vigorous. But I simply say to you there was an outbreak in 1967 that was about a tenth as serious as this outbreak and we've brought it under control within two months and with any luck in the next couple of months we'll knock it out altogether.

DAVID FROST: Will MAFF survive the next Parliament if you're PM?

TONY BLAIR: Well that depends on the restructuring, I mean of government, but I mean there's got to be a Ministry of Agriculture, I mean I think the issue you're raising is, you know do you, do you have a Department of Rural Affairs, well that's something for another time.

DAVID FROST: What about Rory Bremner by the way, was he really knocked off the Blair battlebus?

TONY BLAIR: Well I only just read this in the newspapers this morning so I'm afraid I don't decide who goes on the bus¿

DAVID FROST: Because they, they'd better be pretty careful because he can come back disguised as almost anybody?

TONY BLAIR: He certainly can, yes.

DAVID FROST: But, now tell me one thing, people noted that Cherie has in fact got a major legal case that will mean she can't travel a lot with you during this campaign, was she, like the rest of us, expecting it to be on May the 3rd?

TONY BLAIR: Well I mean the honest answer to that is, yes. But you know it wasn't possible, I mean funnily enough I mean people say it must have been a very difficult decision to postpone it, I found it very easy. I mean there was no way, I was working flat out on the foot and mouth outbreak at the time and until the proper procedures and strategies were in place I couldn't, I mean I couldn't contemplate holding an election, as it happened you know within quite a short space of time after that we were then able to, to bring it under control now it's a question of managing it out and getting the British farming industry back on its feet again.

DAVID FROST: And as far as radical, you used in our interview before the election back in '97 and now you've said you're going to be more radical this time, is this going to be a much more radical government?

TONY BLAIR: Well I hope we'll carry on being a radical government, I mean I sometimes think the odd thing is people just take for granted what a huge change is, we changed to Bank of England independence and new spending rules, the whole of the economic management system. You know we're transforming the way our public services work and making reforms as well as investment, the minimum wage, you know a series of changes in welfare, of course, but we've got to carry on and do more, we've started the job but we have not finished it and what we want is the chance to get on and complete it.

DAVID FROST: Prime Minister thank you very much indeed.

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