Why don't parents believe MMR is safe? 6/2/02

JEREMY VINE:
We'll speak to the Minister in a moment. First we are joined by Nuala Garvey. You're a parent. You have two children, who both are causing you concern as far as this jab is concerned.

NUALA GARVEY:
Both of them are now eligible, a four-and-a-half who's eligible for the pre-school booster and I've got a 19-month-old who is ready for his first vaccination. Before the current controversy I was prepared for them to go ahead with their MMR even though my youngest child was seriously ill with a major febrile convulsion last year. It's left us confused and we feel now we are going to delay our decision.

VINE:
What is particularly worrying you at the moment?

GARVEY:
It just doesn't appear clear. You know, they say that there are thousand links with current cases with autism. There is research available. It's very confusing for parents, you know. ... Also the press have been scaremongering among parents, who were perhaps confident at first but now this scaremongering has created anxiety.

VINE:
You have probably heard the Prime Minister today and the minister we will speak to saying that parents should go ahead and have these injections. Why aren't these parents taking that at face value?

GARVEY:
The rise in cases of autism is causing a huge amount of concern. I know there is much more known about autism now especially different strains like Asperger's.

VINE:
When the Government says there's no proven connection you're not prepared to accept that?

GARVEY:
There seems to be more current research going on. My feeling is that there are probably children that are more susceptible to autism and the MMR jab might trigger it in them. They might have developed it anyway but this will trigger it.

VINE:
Would it have helped your peace of mind if the Prime Minister had come out and said his son Leo had had the MMR jab?

GARVEY:
I do believe that Mr Blair has the right to privacy, Leo has the right of privacy, I respect their family values, but I believe that he is Prime Minister of a government that is actively promoting MMR and that is one of the consequences, perhaps he should announce that Leo has had the MMR. I do believe that myself and my husband might go ahead we knew that Leo had had it.

VINE:
Thanks very much indeed.

JEREMY VINE:
Let us speak to the minister now, Yvette Cooper. If Nuala decides not to give her children the vaccine it would be better for them to be given the individual injections wouldn't it?

YVETTE COOPER:
The clear medical advice we have been given is not only that MMR is the safest option for protecting children against these deadly diseases but also that if we introduce separate vaccinations that would reduce coverage and not increase it. What we would end up with is more children exposed to measles, exposed to mumps, exposed to rubella and more children becoming sick and in the end more children damaged and dying as a result. That is the medical advice we have been given and we have to stick with that.

VINE:
And Nuala has heard that many times, you will have gather from her words that she may not go ahead with those MMR injections and the booster. Wouldn't it be better for her to have the individual separate injections rather than nothing?

COOPER:
The clear advice we have been given is that introducing the separate immunisations would reduce cover. There are several reasons. Firstly, because the children would be un-immunised for longer. Secondly, because have you to have six jabs rather than two. So that means there would be higher risk of children not completing the course. Thirdly, because the evidence from Japan, the evidence from whooping cough in the 70s was that when governments do this kind of thing and change the vaccination policy in response to this kind of scare what happens is that people lose confidence across the board and that vaccinations drop substantially as a result. That is what happened from previous experience.

VINE:
As far as your answer goes as it is advice, it's not good advice because you won't say the individual injections are better than nothing.

COOPER:
The clear advice we have been given is to introduce the separate vaccinations...

VINE:
You can get them privately.

COOPER:
...would lower coverage. I'm the Government Health Minister I have to listen to that advice I have to decide what it is that the NHS does. For me to ignore that advice which is telling me that I would put more children at risk and with more children losing their lives by introducing separate vaccinations I have to take that advice.

VINE:
If she doesn't go for MMR, the individual injections are better than nothing.

COOPER:
Obviously Nuala has to make her own decisions. I think it's right and responsible for us as a government to say MMR is the safest option, according to not simply the Chief Medical Officer and the experts here in Britain, but also right across the world as well. The World Health Organisation and 90 other different countries which recommend it.

VINE:
It's not about the science any more, that's the problem for you. We have seen the statistics that say rates are dropping in London below 75%. What is your plan B? What happens if you have so little take-up that you are face a potential measles epidemic what will you do?

COOPER:
The latest figures show take-up stabilising at around 84%. Obviously we want it to be higher, but it shows figures stabilising at 84% of parents giving their children MMR jabs. A GP asking us to stick with MMR I've had more parents come in to get their MMR jab today than for months and months. We do need to raise confidence and we need to do everything we can to provide parents with more information. When parents see the real information, perhaps for their GP or health visitor, information from NHS Direct you can get the evidence. All the evidence is in the public domain. We want as many people as possible to see.

VINE:
There's no plan B? Is there?

COOPER:
People will make the choice to see that MMR is the safest option.

VINE:
There is no plan B?

COOPER:
I think for us to switch to a policy of saying we should have separate jabs given the face of all the evidence, about what is right to protect children's health it would be irresponsible. It would be the easy option and it would not be responsible of us .

VINE:
It would have helped, if Mr Blair had said that he - his son had had the vaccine?

COOPER:
I think the Prime Minister has made his position clear on this. He has said very strongly that he supports the MMR vaccine and supports the Government policy. He has made it clear that he would not advocate something for the rest of the population that he did not think it was safe for his family.

VINE:
He hasn't said it about Leo, as you have done about your family, and it's clear that may be a problem for people?

COOPER:
I answered this question long ago that my children had the recommended jabs. The Prime Minister's family is under immense and intense scrutiny that none of the rest of us face. For him in those circumstances to make a judgement about respecting the privacy of his children is something that is right for him to do. You know, in the end this is not about politicians children. This is about medical advice. And expert medical advice.

VINE:
Thank you.