Europe diary: Goodbye mercury

16 November 2006

BBC Europe editor Mark Mardell reflects on a vote in the European Parliament to ban mercury, a possible slip-up by French presidential hopeful Segolene Royal, and the forthcoming elections in Serbia.

MAGICAL LIQUID METAL

Remember how uncomfortable it was?

The European Parliament has given its backing to a directive banning old-fashioned mercury thermometers, of the sort that were lodged so uncomfortably under the tongue when I was a child. I don't know whether they are still made or used: certainly when my children have had a temperature we tend to slap one of those flexible digital devices on them. Evidently, barometers have been saved from this ruling, as have museum-piece thermometers.

It'll probably take years to bring in a ban, but is it a good idea? I know mercury is dangerous: isn't that why the mad hatter was mad? But I also remember my grandfather rolling some of the stuff round on his hand and letting me push it around with my finger. I must have been about eight at the time and remember being entranced by this magical liquid metal. So far as I know, neither of us suffered from this brief exposure. And if it's unsafe for thermometers why is it being allowed for barometers?

FAUX PAS?

Europe Diary: Royal progress

French teachers are on the warpath after a video tape of a private meeting with presidential candidate Segolene Royal was leaked. She had the temerity to suggest that working a 17.5-hour week wasn't really good enough. This is teaching time, not preparation time, and she claimed some teachers moonlighted by tutoring and teaching at private schools during these hours.

It will be interesting to see how this goes down with the French public. It's certainly a reminder she has to keep the left on side, which few British politicians would worry about. While French commentators all seem to label it a gaffe I can't believe that there aren't some French parents who will mutter approval.

SERBS AND ILLYRIANS

The Serbian general elections are set for the end of January and the announcement of the United Nations' plans for Kosovo is due immediately afterwards. I've just been reading a book which tries to answer the argument against an independent state, called "The case for Kosova" (sic), published by Anthem press.

Serb nationalists are unlikely to be swayed by stories about Paeonians

The series of essays tries to answer objections like "Is it true Albanians invaded Kosova?" and "Was the KLA a criminal, terrorist and Islamist organisation?" It's all very interesting, but the trouble is, not many Serb nationalists are likely to be muttering, "It turns out that the Albanians are after all in essence Illyrian, and independent small kingdoms like the Dardanians, Penestes and Paeonians have been developing in the area since the pre-Christian era, so we'd better give it up after all."

For many Serbs, Kosovo is the spiritual centre of their nation. British and American politicians and liberals in the region blame Serb politicians for not enlightening their people about the likely outcome, and preparing the ground for losing Kosovo in name as well as in reality. But most of them don't do it because they cannot themselves bear to think it and these will be difficult elections indeed.

SNARK AND BOOJUM

Shereen Zaky from Cairo accuses me of "across-the-board snarkiness" and thinking that Britain is "perfect". No apologies for the way I see the world and the fact I find a fair amount of wry amusement in it. It's not a put-on writing style, it's me. I am sorry if it ever comes across as sneering, I prefer to think of it as wry. But the accusation of British perfectionism does bother me.

Read your comments below last week's diary

Ottoman legacy: The empire's collapse spawned many problems

It is perfectly true that until this posting I have lived and worked in Britain, and moreover, I am still broadcasting and writing for a predominantly British audience, so it's no surprise that I see things from a British point of view. But if my own country is something of a yardstick it certainly doesn't mean that I think it is the acme of perfection. Occasionally there are complaints of, "You wouldn't say things like that about your own country," which is odd, as British domestic journalism is pretty ruthless in exposing flaws and faults. I'm sure Westminster politicians would attest that in my many years covering domestic politics they didn't get a soft ride from me.

Snark: Elusive fictional animal invented by Lewis Carroll, inhabiting inhospitable island, hard to lure Boojum: A particularly dangerous type of snark

But Shereen also makes an interesting point about empires not apologising for their abuses. Since the beginning of the year, I've been reflecting that many of the difficulties of the world today can be traced to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. I would now add, "and the British Empire's reaction to it". Perhaps, like people, nations find it difficult to get the balance right between outraged victimhood and assumptions of superiority and illusions of responsibility. Snarkiness? I am more of a Boojumist at heart.

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Your comments:

Mercury - at last some-one is doing something. As an infant in 1948-9 I was unfortunate enough to suffer 'Pink Disease', reportedly caused through mercury in teething powders. I did survive, but many did not. The after effects have left me with severe asthma which has only recently been helped by having all the amalgam fillings in my teeth replaced with white ones. Maybe the next step will be to stop amalgam fillings for all!
Jean Lambert, Ruislip

We still use mercury thermometers in Latvia and I could not say they are old-fashioned: over the left, they are in every house, in every family, even in every hospital! We dont put them in the mouth but in the armpit to measure the temperature...
Zane, Riga, Latvia

I am a health care assistant at my local hospital with 24 years service, my mum worked as an orderly at the same hospital. I can't tell you how many times we chased little balls of mercury around the floor, no gloves in those days. In later years we were given 'clean up instructions' and then clean up teams could be called out. No one has ever told us what ill effects we may experience from all of this exposure or if the risk of injury had gone once the mercury was removed. Now we have electronic machines which I have to say I don't believe these are totally reliable, I have taken temperatures of many patients who feel too hot/too cold and the machine often belies this. This of course makes me use 'proper' skills like touch but I do regularly see people who use 'blind faith' in technology.
J Fisher, Hayes

In 2001 spent several weeks in hospital in Minneapolis. They used digital thermometers almost entirely but were in the process of changing back to the conventional thermometer because the digital were not sufficiently accurate.
Doug Brander, Crowfield England

As a nurse I am glad to see the end of mercury thermometers. I remember the problems when they were dropped and smashed spilling their contents far and wide. Gloves and aprons had to be donned, as in theory had face masks. Paper hand towels were the best way to try and direct little bobbles of the stuff into the dustpan. It took ages to gather it all together and then had to be stored underwater and disposed of in the hospital pharmacy. Not to mention the hazard of the broken glass. Oh no, give me a digital one any day!
Elisabeth, Leicester, England

The ban on Mercury could backfire as most, if not all, the low energy lamps now on sale contain a mercury vapour. Lets see Brussells get out of that one.
Martin , London UK

I recently attempted to buy a simple thermometer that I could dunk into liquids - and I could simply not get hold of one. The only ones available in boots are powered by batteries (like everything else these days). Aren't batteries a pollutant?
Frank Adams, Warwickshire

I'm a grandad myself now but when I was a kid toys containing mercury were quite common. One type in particular was a game in which you had to guide a slug of mercury around a plastic maze with a clear top. These were sold as pocket games and most kids had one. When we got fed up with that we used to break the plastic open and get the mercury out. It was great fun to roll it around in our hands and some kids collected quite a lot of it in matchboxes. At school we had a large bottle of mercury in the physics lab and it was used to make a barometer by using a metre of glass tubing. This was a standard physics experiment and we would often steal a bit of mercury to play with. No wonder my generation are all a bit barmy. mwahahaha!
andy, liskeard, cornwall

Why is mercury unsafe for thermometers but not for barometers? Well, I guess that's because there's less of a chance of someone biting into a barometer. Duh.
Sandeep, Chennai, India

You either have a very small barometer or a very big mouth.
Ray, London

It might be possible to ban mercury thermometers for home use, but laboratories and the like will continue to use them. Alcohol-based thermometers are useless at high temperatures like 300°C. Mercury thermometers you stick under your tongue are still being made, and are cheaper than some of the digital ones. I wouldn't worry about your exposure to metallic mercury. Its compounds are many orders more toxic. Anyway, thanks to volcanoes, power stations and the fact that mercury is volatile, the stuff is everywhere. There is not a single foodstuff that doesn't contain some.
Martin Hayes, Dubai, UAE

Mercury certainly is unsafe; after Plutonium it's the most toxic metal on the planet. Amazingly it is still used in all so-called Silver fillings - in an amalgam form - despite substantial evidence which suggests prolonged exposure to it, in any form and including amalgams, is harmful. Disposing of Mercury into the environment is a hazardous and damaging business. Were the amount from a thermometer to enter a fishing lake, within a fairly short period of time all the fish would be dead. So it's good riddance to it!!
John Stevens, Edinburgh, Scotland

Metallic mercury is fascinating stuff, and I too remember playing around with it as a kid - you could even buy 'mercury maze' puzzles. However, this is a toxic element that demands respect, especially when it's combined into organic (carbon-containing) compounds. If you have any doubts about this, read about the death of Prof. Karen Wetterhahn (dimethyl mercury poisoning), the Iraqi seed grain disaster (up to 10,000 deaths from methyl mercury) and the dreadful effects of long-term mercury poisoning in Minamata Bay, Japan. Flicking little beads of mercury around is fun, but we'd probably be better off with less of the stuff about.
Jon Crowe, Ashton-in-Makerfield, UK

When mercury, which is chronic, toxic and bioaccumulative is turning up in polar bears bellies, surely anything we can do to limit its release into the environment is positive. I don't think its the thermometers in use where the problem lies but rather those being scrapped. How can you really be sure you haven't been affected by your exposure to mercury with your grandfather (which was far from the only exposure you have had during your life, particularly if you are a fish-eater)?
Paddington, North Pole

Dear Mark, Unless your children weren't vaccinated then you can be sure that they had mercury intravenously injected into them as it is still used as a vaccine preservative. Why doesn't the European Parliament do something about this, or the fact that we still allow mercury to be used in dental fillings?! Both practices are archaic and dangerous. Thermometers are irrelevant compared to these significant and proven health issues.
Daniel Burge, Clare, Ireland

As probably a gazillion people already have commented, but anyway... metallic mercury isn't dangerous at all. In theory you could even drink it as you would water and suffer little ill effects from it. I've seen tv shows where an indian fakir sucked it up (!) with his penis (don't ask me how that worked) and then squirted it out again a bit later. No, the problem is when you break the thermometer (throw it away or whatever) and it ends up in nature. It'll then be exposed to corrosive agents and, as all metals do, rust, and become metallic salts of different kinds. These salts are amazingly poisonous in various nasty ways and the less of them we have around ending up in wildlife and water the better. The barometers obviously are just as dangerous but not by a far shot as common in households and thus constitues a much lesser threat to the environment. I do agree that the exception is a very strange one. Why not get rid of all sources in one go? Ah well, who ever claimed governments made logical and consistent decisions?
Ronny Wikh, Kungsbacka, Sweden

Mark, mercury in the diet causes very severe birth defects. Secondly, if you are allergic to mercury, the symptoms are sufficiciently similar to MS that doctors now think many people diagnosed as suffering from MS are actually allergic to mercury. The most likely source of mercury is teh fillings in their teeth. If not from teeth, the major source of mercury in the environment comes from cremating people who have filled teeth. Don't live near a crematorium.
Paul Monk, Manchester

In Norway we have had a ban on mercury thermometers for some years now. The explanation I have heard is that a mercury thermometer is unsafe because it is used inside body cavities (not everybody was as lucky as you and had the thermometer put under the tongue) where it might break. Glass splinters, internal bleedings and mercury probably entering the bloodstream sounds like a very unhealthy combination to me, nothing like touching mercury with the barrier of your skin protecting you. Barometers are safer because they are not used inside body cavities (as far as I know).
Jon Kongsvold, Trondheim, Norway

As a child, I didn't find the old mercury thermometers particularly uncomfortable. It was certainly not worth complaint. Also, it didn't occur then to anyone that a tiny drop of mercury enclosed in a solid glass tube could pose a threat. Common sene was much more common then, since replaced by the witless paranoia so prevalent among today's legislators. How many cases have there ever been of children being poisoned by a thermometer? I do know someone whose health suffered because of a barometer. It fell on his head.
Alan Culliford, Cardiff, Glamorgan

More worrying is the effect of the eu ruling on spygmomanometers (Blood pressure machines) the mercury sphyg is far and away the most accurate and reliable way of measuring blood pressure. I am sure more lives will be lost from the reduction in quality of care in millions of hypertension sufferers than ever was or would be from mercury
Alun Griffiths, Bradford, West Yorkshire

I used to have a toy, back in the seventies, which was a sealed plastic maze which you would tilt to make a blob (or small blobs) of mercury flow around. It was a lot more fun that the ones we have nowadays, with ball bearings... but presumably it would also have been horrendously poisonous if I'd broken it!
Richard F, Nottingham, UK

I think that it is a good thing that it is going to be banned. I think the reason why the EU is banning using mercury in thermometers and not in barometers is because we don't tend to put barometers in our mouths. I cringe when I think about mercury thermometers are used in mouths. Glass is brittle and you only need to accidently push too hard with your teeth and the glass will shatter and the mercury will all be in your mouth. Not good.
Andrew Searle, Oxford, England

To respond to your question on why mercury would be allowed in barometers and not in thermometers, the answer is quite simple: you don't tend to put barometers in your mouth. Mercury as toxic to ingest or inhale. Rolling it round on your hand would be comparatively safe, but a tiny amount would evaporate and get into your lungs, so it wouldn't be a good idea to make a habit of doing this (or you'd end up like those hatters). Putting it in your mouth however would be inviting trouble. Now, when it's encased in glass, it is of course completely safe - it can't get through the glass so your safe to put it in your mouth (or anywhere else your doctor might think necessary) unless the glass breaks. That's where the risk with thermometers comes in. The glass has to be quite thin for them to work (thick glass would work as a thermal insulator), and it can break if bitten accidentally with disastrous (fatal) results. Since thermometers that do not use mercury are now widely and cheaply available, this small risk can be avoided altogether by relegating mercury thermometers to medical history collections. You could make an argument for doing the same with barometers, but the risk is very much smaller because you don't put them in your mouth, and alternatives are not so widely available.
Gareth Simpson, Edinburgh, UK

There is a remote likelihood that one may bite a thermometer and orally ingest some mercury but that's a far more remote possibility with a barometer, unless you use barometers for something I don't know about.
Azlan Adnan, Kota Warisan, Malaysia

Like you I played with mercury as a child and do not believe that I suffered any ill effects (other than this damned twitch!). Surely the risk of significant mercury exposure due to a thermometer breaking is less than the risk of swallowing broken glass at the same time.
Daniel Jardine, Plano USA / Havant UK

Mark Mardell's views on Politics and Foreign affairs are so biased that I would not consider entering into a debate with him. I would however like to point out to him that the Mercury Thermometer is still widely in use both in the developing and developed world. I can't imagine why he found one place under his tongue to be uncomfortable. In any case, since the 70's most people measured their temperature by placing the mercury Thermometer under an armpit.
Harish Puthran, Paphos Cyprus

Barometers are rarely swallowed!
Allan Newman, Ilford, Essex, UK

Medical thermometers, of the type that were put under your tongue when you were young, contained alcohol (with red dye) not mercury because this is toxic.
E.Unsworth, woking

If mercury is unsafe for thermometers why is it included in vaccines?
Steve, Bangkok, Thailand

Regarding the dangers of mercury, when I was at school our chemisry teacher related to us more than once the true (or apocryphal!)story of the schoolboy who stole some mercury from school and hid it in the airing-cupboard at home with the result that the whole family died of mercury poisoning from inhaling mercury vapour.
John Elliott, Matlock UK

You're right that mercury was what made the mad hatter mad - it used to be used in manufacture of felt. Being a heavy metal, mercury poisoning is a cumulative condition. The brief exposure you had as a child would be unlikely to have any effect on you, but hatters using the stuff every day ended up getting a large cumulative dose. I would suggest that mercury should be banned from thermometers, as we now have modern electronic devices that serve just as well, if not better. Barometers perhaps aren't such a problem as they are normally fixed to a wall and not handled all the time and are as such much less likely to be dropped and broken, spilling mercury. Mercury is not trivial to clear up if spilled, and being volatile, if left lying around can end up giving people nearby large cumulative dosees.
tony, London, UK

The dangers of Mercury is yet another example of the ignorant jumping on a bandwagen to excess. Exposure to the metal in particular has little hazardous side effects whilst the vapour is rather more dangerous. The real problem comes with the compounds of mercury which are actually rather difficult to obtain by the unqualified. Yet another example of the uninitiated being lead by the attention seeking stupid.
T. Rumble, Saffron Walden/England

The European Parliament wants to ban mercury thermometers because most of its members (and many of the environmental campaigners influencing them) are too stupid/ignorant to understand the difference between metallic mercury (not particularly dangerous), inorganic mercury compounds (poisonous) and organic mercury compounds (extremely poisonous, very persistent in the body, and cross the blood/brain barrier). They are also hopelessly incompetent at assessing relative risk. I cannot believe that metallic mercury contained in instruments is more dangerous than the same element in amalgam form. And the latter is put in peoples mouths as dental fillings!
Ken Ricketts, Wokingham, UK

The current EU campaign against metallic mercury is surely one step too far. Generations of children must have ingested mercury due to having had thermometers break in their mouths. How many have died or even become ill as a result? I well remember school science lessons in the 1940s and 1950s. We always had a jar of mercury on the open shelf and used it for all manner of purposes including gas receiving. Fume cupboards were rarely used. When any mecury was spilled we would to chase it around the floor or the bench and this was great fun. Sometimes we took some home, wrapped in the corner of a hanky. If it was spilled onto a carpet it would generally find its way through onto the floor boards as rubber backed carpets were not in general use then. But we never suffered. In lighthouses the heavy lens assembly floated on a bath of mercury, as this provided an almost frictionless bearing. Did lighthouse keepers die from mercury poisoning? I appreciate, however, that compounds of mercury as used until recently in batteries may be hazardous and should be banned.
David, Isle of Wight, England

Here are the reasons for the continued use of mercury in barometers and sphygnomanometers. 1. As a gold standard - although pascals are used as a unit of pressure, millimetres-mercury is still the unit used for blood pressure. 2. Pressure devices using mercury have a longer working life than aneroid ones. The spring in the latter loses its elasticity over time and becomes inaccurate after ten years. Mercury gauges are still good after fifty years.
Charles Siu, London UK

Isn't it time that they banned amalgam filling (50% mercury)? When they're taken out of your mouth they are classed as a hazardous waste - they can't go in the bin, or thrown on a landfill - but we're supposed to believe that putting them in your mouth is fine.
Mark Flint, Ballymena, Co. Antrim

My chemistry teacher at school had a small squeezy ketchup bottle of the stuff on his desk and it always astounded me how heavy it was. It's little things like that at school that you really remember: the straw that breaks the back of willful ignorance and crystalises a desire to study science. And rolling small droplets of it aroun our desks taught us a lot about surface tension, and defied our assumptions about metals being solids. I once saw a tv programme where they had a large open vat of mercury and dropped clothes irons and other solid heavy objects into it, and they floated on the silvery liquid. Incredible stuff. Let's hope mercury remains on sale in chemistry supply shops by the litre, and not restricted to those over 18 with an official EU permit in triplicate and multiple levels of government clearance!
Brendan Whyte, Jerusalem, Israel

pathetic , i remember at school i immersed both hands into a large tank(about 20 litres) of mercury and was amazed that they were still dry , 35 yrs on and I'm fine
andrew jeffries, atherton , england

re Mercury - the risk is based on toxicity AND exposure, not just toxicity. So in a thermometer you've got both, where as a baromoeter you've only realy got one (the toxicity as you don't stick a barometer under your tongue) Its a beguiling substance though - the whole concept of a metal thats liguid at room temperature and the conflict in your brain whn you pick up a jar that you think is a liquid - but weighs so much more that you think it will is one of the wonders that draws people into chemistry/physics etc
Dave, Worthin

When was the last time you stuck a barometer in your mouth? To take your blood pressure perhaps?
PierreZFP, Luxembourg, Luxembourg

If you wonder why barometers are left out from the ruling try to put one of them under your tongue - such excercise as well as being a healthy change from your daily rutine may help you find out an answer to this fundamental question.
hans kloss, Koenigsberg, Preussen

"I know mercury is dangerous: isn't that why the mad hatter was mad?" Wasn't it zinc salts that were once used in hat making that made hatters mad?
B. Lewis, Wolverhampton

Barometers are probably exempt from the mercury law as not many people have been known to suck on one to check the weather.
Mike Blaser, London

Mercury was used extensively in hat making and significant exposure to the vapour particularly when it is heated causes brain damage which is where the phrase 'mad as hatters' comes from. Another major use of mercury is in gold mining such as in south america where it is an environmental disaster. The trivial quantities used in barometers do not present a hazard to users or manufacturers.
Roger Jackson, Stockport, England

As to why thermometers and not barometers - a large percentage of households have thermometers, whereas mercury barometers are not so common and most are owned by institutions. So, it is much more likely for home thermometers to disposed of improperly and ending up in landfills where they might poison groundwater, etc.
Pandabonium, Kashima City, Japan

As a Briton living on the continent I find your column in equal measures infuriating, amusing and pleasing but please stick to the political/social observations and not the technical ones. How many reasons do you want for the differences between mercury use in thermometers and barometers? Starting with you might put a thermometer in your mouth or at the least move it around a lot and thus risk breaking it whereas most barometers lead happy quiet lives hanging on walls for many years. Next you could point out that there are many cheap and accurate alternatives to mercury for measurement of temperature, including both other liquids but also electronic devices as you recognised. Yes you can now get digital barometers but they don't look as pretty on a lump of wood in the hall and the other alternatives are not as accurate. Finally count up how many thermometers you have in your home and how many barometers you have and you'll have another reason why thermometers are a good tar! get. My score was 5-0. It seems like the European Parliament has done something very worthwhile, now perhaps they could work out a way so that I don't have to reregister my car every time I change the country I live in within Europe.
Barry Crisp, Germany

It is good that the EU is banning mercury, it is a pity that it is still being used in NHS dentistry. About 2 or 3 percent of the population are sensitive to this and may be negatively affected by this poisonous metal but not realise the cause. At the same time as the government is forcing crematoria to install mercury capture equipment and stop it going into the environment the NHS is putting this poisonous metal into peoples mouths.
Cgris Gray, Crawley UK

The reason why mercury can still be used in barameters is because the atmosphere can support a column of mercury in vacuum up to about 76cm (varying slightly depending upon the air-pressure at the time). Water on the other hand, can be supported by a vacuum up to 10 metres, therefore a water barometer would have to be about 10 metres high. So for a standard barometer in the home a suitable viscous liquid is required, mercury is such a suitable liquid.
Neil Symons, Watford

Please can you explain the meaning of Boojumist when you said "Snarkiness? I am more of a Boojumist at heart."
W, Hull, Yorkshire

What is a "Boojumist"?
Charles Matthews, Liverpool, England

When you use words like boojumist that cannot be found in the english dictionary then ninety-nine percent of mother tongue English speakers let alone foreign readers don't understand what you are writing.
John Douglas, Munich, Germany

A female for president....a socialist at that!!!... Sarkozy is going to walk the next presedential and more than likely just as the last time the FN and Le Pen could cause a surprise....I've lived in France for over ten years and still cannot get my head around French politics..... There are more revelations every day than what even the best of the Labour or Conservative spin boys can come up with...
Baz, Montigny le Bx...France

Obviously from your implicit support of Segolene Royal you have no idea the amount of work teachers do in order to teach effectively. Contact time is the mere tip of a ludicrous iceberg of preparation, marking and extra-curricular activities. I know rightwing politicans and commentators like to stereotype because to do otherwise is a little more taxing but if I was to comment that all journalists enjoy 3 hour lunches then stagger into the pub for an 'editor's meeting' you would be a little peeved Im sure.
Andrew, Birmingham

You've obviously never been a teacher, Mark. Any hours spent actually teaching are always at least doubled by the load of preparation, marking, and filling in incredibly pedantic and unrealistic lesson plans for the government inspectors (planning everything down to 5-minute chunks - a lesson never stays on a rigid schedule!). That aside - who cares if teachers 'moonlight' in private tutoring? It's inevitable when they don't get paid nearly enough for doing one of the most vital and stressful jobs in society.
Tim, Nottingham, UK

Kosova - yes, with an "a" - is what the ethnic Albanian majority and their neighbours in Albania call the place. And sorry if this email is just one of hundreds pointing out the fact
Richard Fenton, Essen - Germany

Your reference to "Kosova (sic)" took my eye. The international, and national, community have a history of pronouncing this name in different ways, ie which "o" or "o"s to pronounce as "oe" as in "doe". Most Britons opt for just the last "o", as in koss-a-voe, although some politicians, notably Robin Cook, stress none as in koss-ava. The Americans, in contrast and unsurprisingly, stress two "o"s as in koe-sa-voe. However, when you hear the locals pronouncing their territory's name, it sounds like koss-ova (as in over), hence the alternative spelling appearing in your piece.
Roy F, Slough

Churches and monasteries have been recently vandalized and desecrated by muslim albanians under the approving eye of the KLA. If the KLA is a respectable organization and their muslims followers want peace, then why are they not acting as custodians for the ancient places which are holy to their Christian neighbors?
Christine, Geneva, Switzerland

"Any state that lives eternal victimhood cannot eventually escape becoming a perpetrator, because by definition it acts only in self-defense and acts done in self-defense are seen never to be immoral" Isreal, he's talking to you!
NIX, Wirral,Uk

As concerns empires not apologising for abuses, I once had an argument with an arab about this in regard of the middle east. It more or less resolved on the point that powerful states tend to try and build empires regardless of their origins - The arab expansion of the sixth and seventh centuries was similiar to the British Empire is looking at the generalities of power and it's need to expand. This expansion always involves abuses, the comparative level of abuse is what differs.
John Brown, Castleford

People look back on history and one of the most long standing and "glorious" empire is the British Empire, who obviously has killed the most number of people and animals as well. they have split countries up and placed people in the wrong places. When you cant do a thing yourself you should not ask other people to do it. similarly before asking any country to apologise for the act commited by its rulers and goverments generations ago, please count up the atrocities your own monarchy has commited (including those to your own people).
Madhu Borra, Hyderabad, India

It is terrible what happened to the Ottoman Empire. There is one way we can make it up to them (and stop the Turks feeling so bad about the EU's rejection). Give Israel and Palestine back to Turkey.
brian, Paris France