Excerpts from a recorded interview with President Moi by John Sibi-Okumu on "The Summit" programme, broadcast by Kenyan KTN TV on Saturday; passages in quotation marks spoken in Swahili:

[Presenter] We have in our studios a man who is giving us the great privilege of having us interview him face-to-face. It is in fact the first time, for whatever reason, that a Kenyan head of state has given a face-to-face interview of this kind to a local journalist.

And with politics very much in the air, it is my great pleasure and with some pride to welcome to "The Summit" His Excellency Daniel Toroitich arap Moi, president of our republic and commander-in-chief of our armed forces...

[Okumu] You have been on record as saying that having succeeded, it is difficult to lead Kenyans... In what way has it proved difficult to lead?

Moi says tribalism has made leading the country difficult

[Moi] Because of tribalism. There are others who pull people into a different direction and so on. And Kenyans, being conscious of what they want, naturally you cannot handle Kenyans in a simple way, and you need tact, you need to know them, and so I have handled Kenyans that way since I took up leadership.

[Q] Is this a problem that they are always going to have?

[A] It is going to be there, always, unless people avoid tribalism, leaders in particular. The common man doesn't really, the common man is not interested in tribalism, but the -

[Q, interrupting] But maybe they would say that it is natural, tribalism is just a way of displaying a difference... The difficulty might be for you to choose people despite all these tribal differences, so perhaps you could have a cabinet which is 100 per cent people Kikuyu, or 100 per cent - because they are the best people for the job. Is that a solution to the problem?

[A] It is not a solution to the problem. It is because we will have built tribalistic attitudes, people tend to pull themselves back instead of seeing the nation which serves them all. You may have different opinions, you may differ, like a family, you may differ, have different opinions, but objective, the goal should be, the nation. You hear leaders - and this is very important - leaders talking on tribal lines, saying our community are being marginalized. But when it comes to the nation, they become nationalistic. But that will not help create stability.

[Q] Well that takes me onto another line of discussion, and that is that if you're talking about the creation of stability, and you're talking about our country, a lot of people would say that what has been unstable is all because "Moi has done this, Moi has done that" it's always Moi. How do you, the individual, walk about on a daily basis with people blaming you for everything that goes wrong, and very rarely giving you credit for anything that goes right?

[A] Of course, they have got to, as a father of the nation, they throw everything to the father of the nation, but not knowing that like a family, as a father you have got daughters, you have got sons, and all of them who are developing so you cannot blame the father because of the opinion of the son or opinion of the daughter, so -

[Q, interrupting] But then if you continue that image they would say you know "father your time has come, we now want our chance to run things".

Says it will be difficult for Kenya to move forward without unity

[A] But if they themselves can show that they can lead and unite the people, [word indistinct] who will bother about them, my worry today is that unless Kenyans are united and avoid divisions, which is rampant within the continent of Africa, it will be difficult for Kenyans to move forward united.

[Q] ...Maybe they would say haven't you had long enough as father?

[A] Yes, but -

[Q, interrupting] It's not a -

[A, interrupting] If the people still believe that the best person today, despite my age, is Moi, for their security, as far as the country is concerned, why should one say well leave leadership to a young person? They can fight and fight, if they can gain confidence of the people, well and good.

[Q] Now I take the spectre of the outside world looking at Kenyans... In recent times you would have yourself mentioned in the same breath of somebody like President Mobutu. They would say your name has been transformed, you are now to be called Mobutu, and Mobutu must go because you are the type of leader who has destroyed the African continent. How do you -

[A, interrupting] How do you compare Kenya with Zaire?

[Q] [Words indistinct].

No comparison between Kenya and former Zaire

[A] Kenya has infrastructure, we've had our democratic processes, elections after five years, since the day we attained independence, to date we have developed economically, you cannot - there is no comparison at all with the way Zaire is. They have no elections, democratic processes, no infrastructure, nothing. This is a propaganda issue. (?Does it) lump Kenya with Zaire. [There are] no relations - the leadership of Kenya, as far as I'm concerned, my leadership - with that of Mobutu.

[Q] But this propaganda campaign, it seems like a very uneasy relationship, we're now talking about as a statesman, as an African statesman, this idea that we depend to a very large extent on external aid - but at the same time they heap scorn on the management style of almost every African nation, every African leader who comes into power is welcomed as a liberator and goes out as a dictator. How do you feel sitting at the same table with people who are basically going to insult you behind your back, "Your Honour"?

[A] But actually even you ought to know that if Western world don't want any particular leader, they can call him anything, but it is the people who decide who they want. If I had been a dictator in this country, nobody would have liked me. So it is outsiders are throwing the messages of dictatorship or others to Kenyans, and those who would like to take up leadership are using the phrases that are used outside.

[Q] ...We've been seeing all the other presidential hopefuls coming up and they will say: We wish to rid the country of corruption, we wish to improve the agricultural sector, we wish to revamp education.

Now if you take that equation in reverse, it means that KANU [Kenya African National Union, ruling party] has been responsible for corruption, KANU has been responsible for the decay of the agricultural sector, KANU has been responsible for the decay of education. If you were on the same platform as these people who are giving these negatives, well how would you respond then?

Says it there was corruption it must have started when opposition were in the government

[A] I say they must be, when they are throwing these words of scapegoating, used by the members of the opposition, they must understand the historical background of corruption in Kenya.

Did it start yesterday? When did it start? They know better, and there had been, if there had been wrong things done in Kenya, from the beginning, they have been part and parcel of this, and therefore it is not today's corruption, corruption never started yesterday. If there had been corruption, it started way back, when they were in the government, actively in the government.

[Q] ...The other expectation is that every time in the papers they say whatever results come through the ballot box, they have been rigged. Whoever is thrown out it is because of rigging... Is it possible in all this time for you personally to be responsible for rigging countrywide?

Denies involvement in election-rigging

[A] How can I rig elections when those who are handling and running the elections are members of an independent body? How can I give instruction to such people? Even the other day they brought in the names, the names of 10 members. I merely signed, as by the constitution of Kenya. So I have nothing to do, even in the past. I don't, I am not involved in the elections, I am as independent as somebody else, as the members of the opposition.

[Q] ...What is your agenda to lead Kenya into the millennium, KANU's agenda?

[A] KANU's agenda is to prepare Kenyans for the year 2000, but technically, in the economic area, also educationally. We must prepare young people towards that goal ...

[Q] ...The images of the capital - well I don't think the rains have helped us a lot - we find all these symbols: the hospitals, the nurses are on strike, there are potholes everywhere, is this the point of departure which you would have wished to go to the electorate and say: Vote me in again, because they might say to you, Well, no, because maybe things are going to get worse... How are things going to get better in ways that everybody can see, rather than discuss?

[A] OK you are talking about, this issue is very important. First, the people know, the parties, the members of the opposition don't seem to understand that the changes which have taken place, economic changes, or economic reforms, which have taken place since 1991, have created problems throughout the system. What is needed is of course since these changes are now taking place, things will change.

Says opposition do not know enough about the economy

The question of health, Ministry of Health, it is not yesterday that things went wrong, from the beginning - they know this, and some of these things will have to dealt with according to the size of the economy.

We have, these things cannot be sorted out simply because money will be available here and there. Some people think, some of the members of the opposition, one of them suggested that he will give subsidy of 100m [shillings] to secondary education and so on. The staff employed by the members of the board of governors through the country are paid 1bn shillings, so what does 100m shillings do to serve in that area? They don't understand, they should learn more of the intricacies within the economic system.

Unless we have a strong economy, it will be impossible for Kenya to rise, and I hope after these elections all these things will be sorted it. For instance you are talking about the nurses. The nurses are part and parcel of the total civil service. You cannot deal with one section only, you have got to deal with the entire civil service...

It will depend on how we build, we encourage investors to move in so that people can be employed, local investors as well as outside investors. If Kenyans themselves cannot build their own country, cannot invest in Kenya, it will be even difficult to attract investors from outside.

[Q] ...We've got something like 12, 13, 14 candidates for the presidency alone. This doesn't happen in the USA, it doesn't happen in the UK. So, are we saying that our people are politically immature and therefore perhaps deserve what they get?

Says coalition, like tribalism, "will divide Kenyans permanently"

[A] Ah well it is, well it is the people that decide whom they want. It could be 20 even, it is the people who will decide -

[Q, interrupting] But I'm trying to suggest, Your Honour, shouldn't we bring more of our best thinkers and brains in one forum?

[A] I see that you are moving towards coalition.

[Q] No, well, yes, yes, let me put it that way: coalition...

[A] But coalition mean you are moving again into tribal corners, alliances of tribes, which I'm totally against. It is against - you are bringing in a situation which will divide Kenyans permanently.

[Q] Right... When history books are written - and we have within our midst a statesman who would have operated within the political sphere for 30-odd years - and there is a chapter dedicated to you, is it too much to ask what you might wish to see featured in that chapter, which basically summarizes some of your triumphs and disappointments.

[A] I want to be remembered as a man who wanted Kenyans to be together rather than divided. I want Kenyans to feel that they are part and parcel of Kenya. I want to see the best man, regardless of which tribe they come from, to play his role properly, with the talents he has or she has. I - and that is why I am fighting hard to see that Kenyans are together and working towards one goal, that is building one country called Kenya...

Source: KTN TV, Nairobi, in English 1840 gmt 20 Dec 97

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