Michael Howard 'too old'?

On 28 March 2004, Sir David Frost interviewed Sir Edward Heath

Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

Sir Edward Heath

DAVID FROST: Now, Sir Edward Heath has packed several lifetimes work into his 87 years - five weeks to go to his 88th birthday.

Back before the war he witnessed the rise of Nazism, as a young man travelling in Europe.

He saw the devastation of the Continent during his distinguished service in the Second World War, and as prime minister he was determined that Britain should be at the heart of what became the European Union.

He only retired from the Commons three years ago, after a parliamentary career spanning half a century. He was of course, in those last few years, he was also the Father of the House.

But he's been out of the spotlight recently because of illness so we're delighted that he's now back on form and he felt able to give a rare interview at his home in Salisbury.

Sir Edward reflected on his long career but he was also keen to talk about the latest in Britain and abroad too.

DAVID FROST: It's great to see you and it's great to see you fit again.

EDWARD HEATH: Thank you, I welcome it too.

DAVID FROST: You've made a complete recovery.

EDWARD HEATH: Yes.

DAVID FROST: There was a bit of sunshine, wasn't there, for you in the newspapers this morning in the sense that it looks as though the European constitution is back in business.

EDWARD HEATH: Yes, but it's not how I would have liked it. Two reasons, first of all, the grouping has been swollen to such an extent, there are so many members that it's going to make it very difficult to operate and of course the British representative is taking advantage of this and they're setting down, the Prime Minister has set down, the four major things which they won't include in that.

Well now that means that there's a large section of every nation's activities which can't be discussed in general. That's not really great progress.

DAVID FROST: And in fact, you said there, would you rather than having 25 countries, would you have put a limit on the number of people who could have been in the European Union?

EDWARD HEATH: No, what I would have done, I would have said here are the existing ones, this is the standards they reach and if you want to join them you must reach those standards.

We will help you reach them but it will be partial membership, but to complete it you've got to do the same things.

DAVID FROST: Well of course the headlines this week have also been full of those rather memorable pictures of the Prime Minister with Colonel Gaddafi -

EDWARD HEATH: Yes.

DAVID FROST: - in those two shots and so on. Do you think that's been a brave move or is it a foolhardy one - a risky one?

EDWARD HEATH: Well if the internal situation here is so threatened then he can claim justification but I would much have preferred the usual procedure in which the Foreign Secretary goes first and sorts out a lot of things, and then when that's done the Prime Minister goes along and settles the whole affair.

That was my own wish. But on this occasion the Prime Minister is saying that the situation is so critical that he must do it himself and do it straight away.

But it's also noticeable that nothing whatever has been said, as far as has been reported, about the internal situation there and how he treats his people. Now they've made so much about it in Iraq and they're making no rule about it as far as this present one is concerned.

DAVID FROST: Do you think in fact, you met him on several occasions, you led hostages out of his captivity, do you think we could have co-opted Saddam like we have co-opted Gaddafi? I mean could we have talked him into disarmament?

EDWARD HEATH: Well you see it's now forgotten that we were allies, that when they were fighting -

DAVID FROST: Fighting Iran.

EDWARD HEATH: That's right. Then we came to their help. There is a generation which has no idea that all this happened.

DAVID FROST: Do you think he was a madman, a bad man, or a man with a good side as well, or not?

EDWARD HEATH: Well we saw the good side. But he wasn't bad, far from it, and in his talk he was perfectly quiet, in a suit, and he only had one other person there with him - his acting foreign minister - and that way we got down to brass tacks.

DAVID FROST: Do you think this latest, the second war, the war in Iraq as opposed to the Gulf War, do you think that war could have been avoided, or should have been avoided or was inevitable?

EDWARD HEATH: The war in Iraq, in my view and that of many others, is brought about by the President's desire to finish off a job which he felt his father didn't do. And his father kept to the rules and when they got to the boundaries they stopped and didn't go into Iraq.

Well he feels that that was wrong and they ought to have gone in and wiped out Iraq, and so that's the real purpose which he has in that, said the war had finished that was the end of the whole affair.

But it isn't and now none of them, the American military admit they can't see how long it's going to last if they're going on fighting it.

DAVID FROST: And in terms of international terrorism, you had terrorism when you were prime minister, hijackings and things like that, but today this international terrorism of al-Qaeda and the rest is bigger and more dangerous than it's ever been before, isn't it?

EDWARD HEATH: We have to rely on other people's judgements for that, and even then we have to decide which is the right way of treating it.

I can't help feeling there's a great deal of propaganda mixed up with the statements which are made and people are becoming restless about it and regretting it more and more. If one looks at other countries, they have the same threats but they treat it in a different way.

They keep their people not quiet but informed, but not stirring them up the way we're doing, when so far it's been accepted, well that can be very dangerous.

DAVID FROST: In what way?

EDWARD HEATH: Well in the behaviour of people. At the moment, I read yesterday that a considerable number of people have been arrested and put into custody -

DAVID FROST: What in this country?

EDWARD HEATH: In this country, yes, I think it was 67 then, it's probably more by now. Well if they can prove that there is a real threat in each of them, well and good.

But I recall the time when we had trouble in Northern Ireland and the government there wanted to incarcerate people and this will stop them doing things, in Westminster we were really against it all but after a period we finally decided to give way, provided that they kept certain arrangements which we laid down, and they then arrested a considerable number of people.

But in a very short time we found that there was no justification for a lot of them. Unless you can be sure that these are threatening people then it's very dangerous.

DAVID FROST: And it was, yes, counter productive in a way. In the past few months, of course, there's been a big change in your party, was Michael Howard a surprise choice as far as you were concerned, or had you always had him down as a possible future leader?

EDWARD HEATH: Not really, no. To that extent he was a surprise. I'm not questioning his abilities and so on but of course he has got a history which when it goes to an election will be poured out by the Labour Party and the Liberal Party, in particular.

But the real point is that today, I think he's 62 or 3, and if the parliament goes on for the full time he'll be 65, today the Prime Minister of the day is appointed in the forties and I think a whole lot of the population won't recognise somebody in their sixties as being a prime minister. It happened with Neville Chamberlain, yes.

DAVID FROST: Churchill ...

EDWARD HEATH: With Churchill, in the war, yes. But not in recent times. And so he's got to overcome that as well.

DAVID FROST: Since your period as prime minister, of all the leaders there have been since then in the Tory Party, who is the one you were closest too? John Major?

EDWARD HEATH: Of course. As a loyal Conservative I admire all of them.

DAVID FROST: Including Mrs T.

EDWARD HEATH: Well she's entitled to praise for the good things she did.

DAVID FROST: Absolutely right. What was the best thing she did?

EDWARD HEATH: Well now you're tempting me. (LAUGHS) I'd better not comment I think.

DAVID FROST: And you said something very, very positive there. Do you think that a Conservative leader can win the next election or is it a two election job to overtake Labour, with this huge majority at the moment?

EDWARD HEATH: Well it's, I think it's difficult to forecast at this stage but our purpose should be to have somebody there that generations lower down, the young people and so on who would vote, can say oh well he will understand what we want and produce it for us.

And it's very difficult to do that with somebody of a much greater age. It is possible that we could win it, because of the confusion in the ranks of the Labour Party. After all, you've got - it's quite obvious you've got the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister at loggerheads practically the whole time.

DAVID FROST: And what do you think will be the judgement of history on Tony Blair's prime ministership? Or is it too early to say?

EDWARD HEATH: Well I suppose you can always say that it's too early until the man retires. But I think the general verdict of people who study it will be that a whole lot of things where put forward but so few of them were actually seen through to their proper conclusion.

This is a great drawback with them, they expect to do things overnight - you can't do it satisfactorily. It's their weakness and it's a very big weakness indeed.

DAVID FROST: Well thank you so much this morning, it's been a wonderful tour de raison and it's always a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much.

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