Euro-army 'some way off'

On 28 March 2004, Sir David Frost interviewed General Sir Mike Jackson, Chief of the General Staff

Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

General Sir Mike Jackson, Chief of the General Staff

DAVID FROST: Well British troops are currently serving in operations in ten countries around the world.

The most high profile of those operations is of course in Southern Iraq, where nearly 10,000 members of the armed forces are deployed.

They have won praise for their sensitive handling of a difficult situation. It's often said their experience in Northern Ireland has equipped them better for doing this sort of thing, but no one's underestimating the dangers they face.

More than 50 have been killed in Iraq during the war and in subsequent attacks, so are we asking too much of the men and women of the British Army now?

I'm joined now by the man in charge, General Sir Mike Jackson. Mike, good morning.

GENERAL JACKSON: Good morning to you.

DAVID FROST: And welcome. A light preface before we get into all that. What do you make of this story that was on the news today about the potholers, ten or 11 of whom may be from the army or from servicemen of one sort or another. I mean what's going on there? What do you think should go on, should they be detained or -

GENERAL JACKSON: Well of course I mean that's a matter for the Mexican government but it seems to me there's quite a grave misunderstanding. This was a joint service adventure training expedition.

We do a lot of that to bolster initiative, courage, and it seems to me that their purpose was to explore all these caves further than they've already been explored but there seems to be a misunderstanding. I very much hope it will all get sorted out quickly.

DAVID FROST: It's a storm in tea cup.

GENERAL JACKSON: Well let's hope so. Let's hope so.

DAVID FROST: Unless we find ... Well coming on to the, the basic, the thing we mentioned at the beginning, the quote which you will be very familiar with, might hear the clear statement from the Chief of the Defence Staff, that Britain couldn't mount another major military operation for four or five years because we're so stretched - or overstretched. Is it that stark?

GENERAL JACKSON: Well I, I was there at he House of Commons defence committee, with the Chief of the Defence Staff and he was asked about this and he said it would not be possible to mount an operation of the scale of last year's operation in Southern Iraq until 2008, 2009, without - without - taking troops from other commitments - so it was qualified in that way. Because, as your opening remarks made clear, the Army is busy.

I'm not sure about this word overstretched, it's a lot of that is in the eye of the beholder. It's certainly not as busy as it was last summer - that was on a surge, it wasn't sustainable, but we had to do that particular job. We are now in a, now in the position where I think it is a sustainable position with our current deployments.

DAVID FROST: So in fact, he's right when he says we couldn't take on a major one - as you're saying like Iraq -

GENERAL JACKSON: Without redistribution, yeah.

DAVID FROST: - without redistribution - but we could take on another Sierra Leone or something like that.

GENERAL JACKSON: Oh indeed.

DAVID FROST: A smaller operation.

GENERAL JACKSON: A smaller operation is do-able.

DAVID FROST: Because in fact the thought of you having to say no is rather - I mean take one example, Tony Blair said that if anything happened in Rwanda the world would, would go back in and get active in that if there was a danger of loss of, lots of loss of life and so on there, but I mean the thought of someone ringing you and you saying I'm sorry old boy, I've got to say no, that would be a very difficult thing to do.

GENERAL JACKSON: It's not in the British army's make up to say no. Some people sometimes think we should say no when things get very busy, but one of the greatest things about the British Army is its can do approach and that's a great reflection on the soldiers who make that possible.

DAVID FROST: And in fact does the training you give them alter now, I mean so much of what we're doing now is - or you're doing now - is policing situations or peacekeeping things. Does that involve a different training? I mean everyone says how well we do it in Southern Iraq, I mean do you have to give these men different training?

GENERAL JACKSON: It's complimentary. The, the most important thing for any army, but particularly the British Army, is that if need be they are able to fight a war and to win it, as indeed we did in and around Basra last year.

Now for less intense operations, some form of peace support operations, you can come down from that level of training and that level of intensity, and adjust to the, to the post conflict situation, if you like, which is what we've been doing in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Kosovo, all of these places. What you can't do with the same degree of speed or alacrity is to go from a peacekeeping army to a war fighting army, that is not available, it's the other way round that works. And that's one of our great strengths.

DAVID FROST: And would a euro army have the same cohesion as the British Army, do you think?

GENERAL JACKSON: Well you're into hypothetical territory but any army must have a clear political authority under which it acts, in a western democratic system.

There must be that clear political authority and it seems to me that we do not have such a clear political authority at the moment, it's not on offer until - unless and until - such a single political authority emerged.

DAVID FROST: But you wouldn't be opposed to it in principle?

GENERAL JACKSON: I have no view in the longer term because it all, will all depend about what is the appropriate way in which a body politic expresses its willingness to use political force in support of its diplomacy.

I wouldn't want to be drawn into a hypothetical situation over a notional European army. Coalitions are put together from different countries, bringing with them troops which serve their national political authority, and I think that's where we are right now.

DAVID FROST: Where we are right now. Now everyone predicts, rather gloomily in terms of the army and so on, that the forthcoming spending review could reduce your income - the army, navy and air force. Is that something people are resigned to?

GENERAL JACKSON: Well the public spending round is underway as it always is at this time of year, and of course the allocation of resources right across government spending is entirely a matter for the government.

It's for them to make the political decision as to the relative priorities of health and education, on the one hand for example, defence, transport, etcetera on the other. That is for the government. Of course, like a small boy who has one sweet, I'd like two sweets.

DAVID FROST: Yes.

GENERAL JACKSON: But we need to be grown up about this and we have to work within the resources given to us.

DAVID FROST: And obviously, if there was a reduction in the budget, obviously that would immediately, you'd have to take measures immediately to be able to afford things under the new budget and that might come back to the things you were saying earlier about how many other things you can be up to at the same time.

GENERAL JACKSON: Yes. I mean clearly it's the responsibility in any spending ministry to stay within the resources allocated, and that's I'm sure what the Ministry of Defence will do.

DAVID FROST: Everybody says, Mike, everywhere we see the plaudits for the operation in Iraq, I mean it was quicker, there was probably less loss of life than had been predicted and all of that sort of thing, what about all the logistical stuff, in terms of lessons we can learn?

I mean one just reads everywhere, failure of supply and logistics, uniforms and boots not in the right place, the Defence Select Committee troubled by the supply of protective suits and antidotes to poison gas, if the Iraqis had used poison gas or chemical warfare. Was there a lot to learn in terms of the back up, the provision? They guys out there were sometimes only equipped with one suit rather than four and so on and so forth. Was there a failing on the supply side?

GENERAL JACKSON: Well let me say first of all, I think the success of that war fighting operation speaks for itself. It was brilliantly done, and thank you that you acknowledged it in your opening remarks. Now, nothing goes perfectly.

It's worth reminding ourselves, I think, that on this occasion we moved roughly the same number of people - roughly the same amount of material to the Gulf - in half the time as we did for the first Gulf War. So that says something, I think, about the logisticians ability to get on with it. Now, nothing - nothing I can say is perfect, and when you've got the friction of war it adds to that. We're not a supermarket, we don't have a distribution depot, well lit, surrounded by hard-standing, connected by motorways, knowing precisely what you need to deliver. It's more complicated than that.

And of course if you're a supermarket your only problem is your rival, commercial rival. We have an enemy to contend with. So there are lessons to be learnt and we are learning them. But taken in the round, I believe, and I've proud of the fact that the British Army did extraordinarily well.

DAVID FROST: Clearly they did but there was that tragic case of the guy who, who in fact took off his uniform, gave it to someone else and died as a result of not still having it, and so on. So there was a shortage there, obviously.

GENERAL JACKSON: There was a shortage at the point where it's required and of course it's a tragedy that some Sergeant Roberts died in that way and we all very much rue that.

DAVID FROST: Tell me about, your feelings about Deep Cut, because that always comes up in any discussion. The suicide, or alleged suicide of four young soldiers who maybe have been bullied or whatever.

The fact there have been 60 cases of suicide over the last - not, not just there - over the last ten years before that, and the parents being convinced that it may not just have been a suicide. I mean what do you, what do you draw from that?

GENERAL JACKSON: Well the deaths are of course tragedies. Any, any unwarranted death such as those is a tragedy. That said, I think we need to bear in mind one or two points.

Firstly, that overall the suicide rate in the army - and the armed forces in general - is less than the population at large, except, it must be admitted, for young males in the particular recruiting age bracket we have, where it's something a bit higher.

So this is not something which is going on that is scandalous throughout, this is a particular case of these wretched and unfortunate deaths. It's still under investigation, I know it goes on for some time but the Surrey Police have just published their fifth report, as you know, which comments on the overall aspect.

The army is entirely clear that it is responsible for young people coming in as recruits. It's entirely clear that any form of bullying or unfair regime is simply not on. Whilst that's easy to say, it's not always easily achieved in every last instance but the army's policy is utterly clear about this.

DAVID FROST: And I mean obviously there's probably another report to come but until that report comes I suppose it is theoretically, five per cent or whatever, possible that there could be a finding that it wasn't suicide. I mean you can't rule that out at the moment.

GENERAL JACKSON: David, will you forgive me if I don't get drawn into speculation here when the judicial process is yet not run its full course.

DAVID FROST: And what about, in fact, overseas? What about the activities overseas? I mean there's an interesting fact, you've been to Iraq several times -

GENERAL JACKSON: I have been since the war.

DAVID FROST: And in fact there's an interesting figure in one of the papers apropos this, that more than 20 Americans - according to one newspaper, unsubstantiated report - more than 20 Americans have committed suicide since the war began.

GENERAL JACKSON: I have seen those reports and of course it's very tragic but we should not underestimate the, the difficulties and the dangers and the strains which soldiers must undertake when they're involved in this sort of operation.

They are considerable and the fact that the vast majority carry out their duties, not only with competence but with great cheerfulness and commitment, I think says a million words for the British Army.

DAVID FROST: And the British Army and your goodself are now, we read from Tripoli, you're about to be teaching at Sandhurst and elsewhere Libyan recruits coming over here. Is there a slight sense of reserve about sharing our skills and - not state secrets - but secrets of good technique, sharing them with people who were until recently called our enemies.

GENERAL JACKSON: Well Libya, apparently, has thought through some very hard questions for itself recently, and come up with some rather different answers to the ones which it has produced over the last few decades.

It seems to me that can only be something to be welcomed, that if Libya has seen that its previous policies were, in international terms, not very helpful, if they've now decided to go a different way - good. If we can give them a hand, so be it.

DAVID FROST: Give them a hand. Give the man a hand - we'll just get an update on the news today, the news and where it stands at the moment from Moira and then we'll come back to the general himself.

[NEWS]

DAVID FROST: Thank you very much indeed Moira. We were talking about suicides in Iraq and so on and so forth, it's pretty grim out there, I should imagine. I mean what's morale like out there?

GENERAL JACKSON: Well whenever I've visited I have found British soldiers on the ground, very committed to what they are doing, taking a very professional view of it and morale being pretty high.

It's just worth saying, David, going back to your point about recruit training and all of that, that it seems to me that when we, when we take these young people out of their basic training, put them into the field army and then they go off and do things like this, it says a lot about them of a very credible nature, and a lot about our training of a very credible nature.

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