Tour or not?

On 25 January 2004, Sir David Frost interviewed Tim Lamb, Chief Executive, English Cricket Board.

Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

Tim Lamb, English Cricket Board

DAVID FROST: And now we turn to the subject of cricket and should we go to Zimbabwe or not.

The actual date of the tour - Tim Lamb is here, who is chief executive - and the actual date of the tour is nine or ten months away, so this time at least it's not like last time when you had the debate about Zimbabwe, it's not a last minute thing, it's a nightmare at least a few months ahead.

TIM LAMB: Well the pressure really started to build up only about five weeks before the cricket World Cup match in Harare. This time the ECB is determined that we will examine all the issues, that we will not allow ourselves to be put under undue pressure and that we'll make the right reason, at the right time with the right people making it.

DAVID FROST: But do you find your position, caught in the middle between English cricket, English susceptibilities, Rhodesian, Zimbabwean susceptibilities, and then the world cricket scene - I mean are you in an almost no win situation?

TIM LAMB: Yes, we very much are. I mean obviously we are in a unique situation, because of the historical ties between the two countries, and what plays well at home with a domestic audience doesn't necessarily do the same internationally.

We do have obligations to the international community. We are signatories to this future tours programme, which is a bilateral system of tours where we are obliged to tour all the other Test playing countries, but equally, we're well aware of the pressures that we come under back home.

DAVID FROST: It would look, to an outside observer, that in the last few days the debate has moved towards the idea of - I know you're not making a final decision until next month - but it's moved towards the idea of not going, in the sense that Des Wilson brought out this report where he was making the point that there are moral and political reasons that have to be taken into account, not just the safety of the players.

TIM LAMB: I think it's - what we've got to say first of all is that that's a very helpful framework document but it hasn't yet been adopted as policy by the ECB directors and it's on the agenda for their meeting this coming Thursday.

What is different is that the political temperature has increased, the government have now come off the fence and made it quite clear that they are against us going to Zimbabwe - it may have been couched in the coded political language of Whitehall but for them to say that we ought to consider carefully whether a high profile English tour at this time is consistent with the approach the British government are taking is probably as close as you'll get to an instruction not to tour.

DAVID FROST: And is that a helpful thing to have, very nearly have an instruction - I mean if you had an instruction that would actually simplify your life wouldn't it? But so does a 50% instruction simplify your life 50%?

TIM LAMB: Well I think we'll have to argue that in a western, representative democracy that is tantamount to an instruction not to go. There are two reasons why you can be excused touring, if you like. One is if there are legitimate safety and security concerns and the other is if you get an explicit instruction not to go from your government.

DAVID FROST: But the moral and political point has come up, do you agree with that point, that it should be taken into account as well? In addition to what you said, what you just said there makes it pretty clear that the, what the verdict might be at the end, but what do you feel about the moral and political ...

TIM LAMB: Well David I don't really think it's up to me as the chief executive to give my own personal reasons, it's up to the management board of the ECB to reach that decision, having considered all the factors and taken everything into consideration, including any possible legal and financial consequences, at their meeting at the end of February.

DAVID FROST: Well, now, legal and financial - the financial cost of not going, could be what?

TIM LAMB: Well there are no specific sanctions which are laid down if you fail to fulfil an obligation under the future tours programme, and the president of ICC has made that quite clear. But it's quite possible that the Zimbabwe cricket union will have recourse to the ICC disputes resolution process and will claim compensation for the fact that we haven't gone - if indeed that's the decision that we take next month.

DAVID FROST: And what would be the other after effects, or repercussions? If we didn't go there would be the financial ones, which you've just outlined, what else ...

TIM LAMB: Well I think I hinted earlier that what goes down well with the domestic audience, domestic stakeholders, the cricket-loving public and the British government isn't necessarily seen in the same light by the international community who are very keen to keep the family of ICC together and also to preserve the integrity of this future tours programme, which is obviously key to the businesses of all the test playing countries.

DAVID FROST: So we would be unpopular ...

TIM LAMB: And that's really the dilemma we're in.

DAVID FROST: Would we be just unpopular, or could further sanctions be taken against us?

TIM LAMB: Well it may have a possible knock on effect on the ICC Champions Trophy tournament, which is taking place later this year. I think we just hope the international community will understand the unique situation that we're in, because of the historical situation between England and southern Rhodesia, and also the huge weight of pressure that's on us from the government downwards that we should think carefully before we tour.

DAVID FROST: And will the players be consulted?

TIM LAMB: I'm actually speaking to Michael Vaughan, the England captain, today, and I think it is very important that we take the England players views into account.

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