Goodbye to Concorde

On 19 October 2003, Sir David Frost interviewed the former Labour minister Tony Benn and the British Airways Chief Concorde Pilot, Mike Bannister

Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

the former Labour minister Tony Benn

DAVID FROST: Concorde has graced the skies above Britain for more than 30 years, but next week it will be taking off for the last time.

Even though its first passage of flight was way back in 1976, Concorde has remained throughout that period the world's most advanced commercial aircraft, taking just three and a half hours to cross the Atlantic.

And on one memorable occasion, at twice the speed of sound, it did it in 2hr 52min. It's a symbol of a political and technological ambition that we may never see again.

Well I'm going to be on that last flight, you couldn't keep me off it. And the man who will be at the controls with me then is Captain Mike Bannister.

MIKE BANNISTER: Good morning.

DAVID FROST: Good morning. And, at the same time we have the man here who really in a way made it all possible when they wanted to close the project down in its latter stages.

Tony Benn. Good morning Tony. Let's start with that historic moment. You inherited a situation where you were told by Whitehall officials that it had been agreed, that Concorde was not going to ahead.

TONY BENN: Well it was started by Macmillan to get us into Europe, I think. It was a beautiful aircraft and they didn't trust the French so they put a no cancellation clause in and, so when the government was elected in '64 the Treasury couldn't cancel it.

The Treasury would have cancelled the Channel Tunnel 100 yards from the French coast because it had escalated in cost, you know, I mean, the Treasury want to cancel everything. But when I came back as Secretary of State in '74 all the officials came and told me that whichever party won the election, Whitehall was united it should be cancelled.

DAVID FROST: Whitehall?

TONY BENN: Whitehall, that's the Treasury really. And so the job was to keep it going. A quarter of a million jobs were at stake. And I tell you my interest in it truthfully is that if the people resigned it, it would go to brilliant people and the people who fly it and the crew.

You know the tin is interesting but it's the minds and thought and skill and craft that went into that plane, and that's something to be tremendously proud of.

DAVID FROST: When you first flew on it they gave you your own parachute, did they?

TONY BENN: Yes, well I was there when it took off and I went to Toulouse for the roll-out and added the "e" which had been taken out by Macmillan when he was in huff with De Gaulle, put the "e" back. But I was there when it first flew, and then in 1970 I went on the fourth supersonic test flight with Brian Trubshaw. I

tell a funny story, I took a little video camera with me and brought it back and the BBC wouldn't show it. They said the quality's not good enough. I think if I'd landed on the moon the BBC at that time would not have wanted a picture that wasn't up to their standards.

DAVID FROST: Technical quality is very important!

TONY BENN: And it was ... then when we saved it, took all the people who'd built it, my wife and I took them all around the Bay of Biscay and it was fantastic. Many people have worked on the aircraft since, for 30 years, never flown before. And we had a sort of, if you know what I mean, a charabang trip, for the country and it was lovely. And it is a beautiful aircraft, I'm really sad although I know you can't keep it for ever. It's done 50 years and still ahead of the band.

DAVID FROST: Yes, I always say I think it's one of the three most beautiful man-made sights in the world, New York City from the Tribecca Bridge in the early evening, Sydney Opera House and Concorde. I think in terms of mankind, close to the Lord. I think that's terrific. Now Mike, when did you first encounter Concorde?

MIKE BANNISTER: I'm one of those folks, I always wanted to be a pilot ever since I was seven. I can remember looking up from the beach at Boscombe and watching little aeroplanes go over and I thought, that's what I want to do, I want to be a pilot. So in 1969 when I went to the College of Air Training at Hamble.

I was doing my final exams and I watched the very first flight of the British-built Concorde on a little black and white television in the corner of the room and I thought, that's what I want to do. I want to be a Concorde pilot. Seven years later in 1977 I was lucky enough to do it.

DAVID FROST: And what's different about flying Concorde, actually, manipulating the controls of Concorde rather than a 747.

MIKE BANNISTER: Well she's a beautiful aeroplane to fly, an absolute delight to handle, a bit like a thoroughbred racehorse rather than a riding school hack, or perhaps a sports car rather than a truck.

You can fly her with your fingertips from take-off, acceleration, climb, supersonically descent and landing. Very responsive, and it's very rewarding. Some of my colleagues who have a military background liken Concorde to a fast jet with a hundred passengers behind.

And to fly that efficiently and effectively across the Atlantic, and then see those customers get off with great big smiles on their faces, really rewarding. It's a great job.

DAVID FROST: And you're going to be on this flight aren't you?

TONY BENN: Yes I am, yes.

DAVID FROST: And you said somewhere, where I absolutely agree with you. You might well have a handkerchief ready, because it will, the interesting thing about this is you never say that about, if the 747 went out of service. There is something emotional about Concorde, and therefore about its farewell, isn't there?

TONY BENN: But I tell you something, on the first flight in Filton, George Edwards the Chairman of BAC was there, and Trubshaw was there, and it was a bit delayed. And it was like a village cricket match. There was Trubshaw walking about saying that these chaps in the backroom are holding us back.

And as Trubshaw went out people shouted "good old Trubby" and he sort of waved his bat. And it was a combination of an English cricket match and the most advanced technology in the world. It is a lovely aircraft.

DAVID FROST: That's exactly your feeling isn't it.

MIKE BANNISTER: It is.

DAVID FROST: You'll be sad on Friday won't you.

MIKE BANNISTER:I will be.

DAVID FROST: You'll be sad first of all that it's taking off at seven rather than nine. We'll all be slightly sad about that. But in fact you will be sad, yes?

British Airways Chief Concorde Pilot, Mike Bannister

MIKE BANNISTER: I will be, but I'm convinced it's the right decision at the right time for the right reasons. And what we've been doing in the few months since we made the announcement, was try and make Concorde's retirement a celebration, make sure she retires with style, grace and dignity, and give as many people as possible the opportunity to fly this fantastic aircraft.

DAVID FROST: Absolutely right, absolutely right. And I mean, it's odd isn't it, though, that the thing that, Tony, that something as technological as this, with an advance to supersonic, it's very rare that you have new inventions that work, and then disappear. I mean, there may never be another supersonic plane.

TONY BENN: Well there was a plan for a hypersonic aircraft that would go to Australia in 20 minutes. It was a sub-fractional orbital aircraft that went up into orbit and landed again. I did stop that because I wasn't very ...

DAVID FROST: Because you couldn't have in-flight movies on it?

TONY BENN: Well, you couldn't have had time, that was why we stopped it of course. But you have to be careful, looking back at the very beginning maybe we'd have gone for the airbus earlier, we'd have caught the market but, it is so beautiful and you can't apply economic tests. After all, who asks about economic tests for the space programme, for the atomic bomb, for the dome?

You know, I mean there's some things that are special, and if you decide to do it you have to carry on with it and I'm so proud because, you know, we've lost a lot of manufacture now, we used to launch ships, we used to build cars and computers and motorbikes, and in a way this is for me, the 24th is a sort of, well it's a commemoration of Britain's manufacturing skill which we've allowed to slip through our fingers, but that's a wider story.

DAVID FROST: Well, thank you both very much indeed. Mike, will you be able bear to go on to ordinary planes after next Friday?

MIKE BANNISTER: I've been very lucky. I always try and look forward rather than back. I've been very lucky, proud and privileged to be part of the British Airways Concorde team over these last 22 years.

TONY BENN: Are you going to take me up in a Tiger Moth?

MIKE BANNISTER: I'll take Tony up in a Tiger Moth.

TONY BENN: I learned to fly a Tiger.

MIKE BANNISTER: Now it's time to go and fly the Airbus and it's great, I mean it's just another door opening. The one thing about Concorde I think, that's made it special above anything else.

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