A new EU presidential term dawns.

The Politics Show on Sunday 22 June featured an interview with the Minister for Europe, Denis MacShane.

Jeremy Vine also talked to Oliver Letwin and Cantle.

Interview with Ted Cantle and the Shadow Home Secretary, Oliver Letwin MP

NB: this transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy.

Please credit the BBC'S "Politics Show" Sunday 15 June 2003

Anti Semitism in Europe is a very worrying problem

Jeremy Vine: Let's speak now to the Minister for Europe, Denis MacShane. What do you do Mr MacShane about Mr Berlusconi, it's embarrassing isn't it.

Denis MacShane: No, I'll be in Rome at the end of this week and I was rather surprised at the allegation from I think a Liberal Democrat that the Italian Government, the State as a whole isn't taking its six months presidency seriously.

There are three big issues, of course the carrying forward of the convention work into an inter-governmental conference, which will be launched in Rome in October.

The second one is a focus on the Western Balkans, and don't forget the Italians really made a major contribution with operation Alba, a couple of years ago, to stabilise Albania, and they're very active and doing really good work there with all our European partners. And the third big one is jobs, jobs, jobs. How we get the European economy going again.

Jeremy Vine: But you've got to deal with him. He's accused of being a crook, he changed the law to give himself immunity his personal lawyer has gone to prison for eleven years, it's embarrassing and difficult for you isn't it.

Denis MacShane: Not really, I mean I remember under the Major Government, it was always accused of sleaze and corruption. We've got other European countries that from time we've got political ... (overlaps)

Jeremy Vine: John Major was never accused of those things.

Denis MacShane: No John Major, for heavens sake, not at all but the party in power was and in essence it's an elected government, we'll deal with it, Mr Schroeder and President Chirac work with Silvio Berlusconi so does ... (overlaps)

Jeremy Vine: BOTH TOGETHER

Denis MacShane: Of course I am. It's ridiculous. I'm not going to insult the Italian people. They've elected him, they've got opposition, I read Republica, the main Italian paper, it's very critical. I've got no doubt in my own mind Italian - Italy, it's a very functioning healthy democracy and it will do good work, it will work with its other European partners and I enjoyed, I love Paolo's little cartoon strip shows but I really didn't think that was quite worthy of the subject.

Jeremy Vine: Well I, hang on a second, she spoke to the Deputy Prime Minister Gianfranco Fini, whom you described in 1995 as Fascist, I think you said, used the words, Fini has taken care to assure his followers that on all the major themes associated with Fascism, he is true to the faith. The evidence that Fini still ... to core elements of fascist ideology, is overwhelming.

Denis MacShane: Yes, that's right.

Jeremy Vine: Still true.

Denis MacShane: Ten years ago that was the position I think that Mr Fini was in. He's since cleaned up his party; it's a right wing party, it comes after the extreme right ...

Jeremy Vine: He's changed his spots you think.

Denis MacShane: I, everybody I think agrees on that, that's why he works very well with the German government, which is social democratic. It works very well with other European ... (overlaps)

Jeremy Vine: Accused of being anti-Semitic then.

Denis MacShane: At the time, at the time, some members of his party, I don't think they accused him, undoubtedly there was clear evidence that there was anti Semitic remarks there, but unfortunately, we've seen the rise of Anti Semitism elsewhere in Europe more recently. Anti Semitism is a very worrying problem.

Jeremy Vine: Well exactly, exactly.

Denis MacShane: I think. I think, I mean I'm - not now going to get involved in a discussion on the internal politics of the Italian government.

Mr Berlusconi meets with Chancellor Shroeder, he meets with President Chirac, exactly the same pictures you showed with Tony Blair, you can see on French television and German television.

Jeremy Vine: But you'd shake his hand, you'd shake Mr Berlusconi's hand, you'd shake Mr Fini's hand would you.

Denis MacShane: I, I - actually on the whole, if somebody is elected I'm not going to keep my hand in my pocket. I don't, I don't agree with their politics, and I think Chris Bryant was absolutely right and actually, Mr Rutelli, who's a friend, was absolutely right. He was actually sending an appeal through that programme to let Italy, which is a profoundly democratic country, show what it can contribute to Europe.

Jeremy Vine: All right. Just on the summit, just finished in Thessaloniki. Mr Blair came there with a big idea didn't he, which is that camps where refugees could be held before they reach the EU, it was dropped over dinner. How did that happen.

Denis MacShane: No. What happened was that the Dutch government, other governments, the UNHCR are all looking at how one can deal with the refugee or the economic migrant problem, closer to the source.

Jeremy Vine: But our idea has gone.

Denis MacShane: No, the idea is there, very much on the table.

Jeremy Vine: Still alive.

Denis MacShane: Course it's still alive. I mean every other European country one talks to, bar one or two, Sweden for example, there's a big parliamentary protest against it, so me Swedes came and said, hey, we don't want to have, work with this particular idea at this time.

Jeremy Vine: It's going to be like concentration camps.

Denis MacShane: Yeah, that was a silly remark, a foolish remark in my view, because what's actually happening is, I get asylum seekers at my surgery in Rotherham every weekend, what we have to do is try and break that criminal line, that criminal chain now that is smuggling people, smuggling drugs, smuggling prostitutes, smuggling actually horribly young children.

Now if you can actually deal with it closer to where people come from, this is UNHCR ideas, it's the Dutch government ideas, they're on the table, there was an agreement at, at - in Greece, to move forward directly with one of the proposals but the proposals still being discussed.

Jeremy Vine: It doesn't say much for our diplomatic clout there does it, that we have an idea, and it just vaporises.

BOTH TOGETHER

Denis MacShane: Jeremy, I'm sorry it's a Dutch idea. Have you not read the articles by the Dutch, it's one of the most liberal governments in Europe. These ideas have been discussed by the UNHCR, it's not a British idea. I mean we think it's a good idea...

Jeremy Vine: David Blunkett has been pushing it.

Denis MacShane: So has Nicholas Sarkozy, the French Interior Minister, because if you actually have to deal with this, and it's a real problem, I'm interested because I am responsible, have been for two years now for the Balkans and I know that the problem with the Balkans is that you've now got this new almost globalised crime rings that are based on people movement, drugs movement, prostitutes movement.

We have to find ways of breaking it up, we are doing it with aggressive police work. But the best way is to actually handle this closer to sources, and certainly I know in my constituency surgeries, many of the people who come to Britain, would actually have much rather have had fairer and better treatment before they spent a fortune and were passed from criminal gang to criminal gang, to pitch up in South Yorkshire.

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