Prescott to impose settlement

"It's a form of dictatorship". That was the response from one fire-fighter on the picket line to John Prescott's decision to impose a settlement in order to end the dispute.

John Prescott told the Commons that legislation would be rushed through parliament allowing him to specify the pay, terms and conditions of firemen and women.

Kirsty Wark spoke to Nick Raynsford, the Fire Service Minister and John McGhee of the Fire Brigades Union.

She started by asking Nick Raynsford whether he found it strange that John Prescott stood up in the Commons and announced legislation that would have made Mrs Thatcher proud.

NICK RAYNSFORD MP
(Fire Service Minister):
This legislation is simply about resolving a dispute which has gone on for far too long where the FBU have shown a total reluctance to use the proper negotiating channels through ACAS that they themselves proposed as the way of resolving this dispute.

WARK:
But it won't of itself stop the strikes.

RAYNSFORD:
What it will do I hope is to concentrate peoples' minds. Everyone knows that this dispute is only going to end through negotiation. That's got to be about pay and modernisation. The FBU have got to recognise they can't go on simply demanding a 40% pay increase and show no willingness whatsoever to discuss the imminently sensible proposals of the Bain review to modernise the fire service.

WARK:
How far are you prepared to go? Are you prepared to ban industrial action in the fire service?

RAYNSFORD:
We're not proposing that...

WARK:
Are you prepared to do it?

RAYNSFORD:
What we are proposing are measures to enable the Deputy Prime Minister to impose a settlement if the parties don't themselves agree one.

WARK:
So that must therefore include insisting they go back to work, otherwise you can't necessarily resolve a strike with this.

RAYNSFORD:
What we believe is that a lot of firefighters are growing increasingly concerned at where this dispute is going. There is no possibility of them winning in the way that their executive suggested. There is no possibility of them getting a huge increase in pay without negotiations about modernisation of the service. Reality has got to creep in. If it does, then hopefully there will be proper discussions and negotiations through ACAS, which after all is what the FBU suggested in the first place, and that will lead to a settlement. If that doesn't happen, the Deputy Prime Minister has the power or will have the power under our proposals to be able to impose a settlement in order to bring this to a head.

WARK:
So he'll be able to impose a strike ban?

RAYNSFORD:
No, impose a settlement...

WARK:
You can't force men back to work, men and women back to work.

RAYNSFORD:
No, and the Deputy Prime Minister was very clear about that in the Commons this afternoon...

WARK:
Unless you ban industrial action. Do you rule out banning industrial action?

RAYNSFORD:
As we've always said, we will be publishing a White Paper in the spring. We have ruled out nothing, and we will consider a range of options if necessary.

WARK:
Just to be clear, you are prepared if necessary to ban firefighters from going on strike?

RAYNSFORD:
What I said is that we've not ruled out any option, and we'll be publishing a White Paper in the spring which will set out our considered conclusions on the right way forward. In the meantime, we're taking urgent steps because we move negotiations have got to start again and the parties have got to be sensible and serious about negotiating a solution.

WARK:
Isn't there legislation still in the statute book in which you could force the firefighters back to work in a case of emergency, for example, a threat of terrorism or indeed a war?

RAYNSFORD:
The Attorney-General could consider seeking an injunction, and he has obviously reviewed the position over recent weeks and will, I'm quite certain, continue to do so. Our focus is on trying to get the parties back to the negotiating table because that's the way in which this dispute will ultimately be resolved.

WARK:
You say that some firefighters are fed up. This is an expression one firefighter used, "This is a form of dictatorship." this, according to the Conservatives, will inflame the situation rather than resolve it, unless you're prepared to go the whole way.

RAYNSFORD:
I don't believe that's right. When John Prescott made his statement in the Commons today, it was quite clear there was a very large measure of support for firmer action being taken by the Government in order to address the very serious position we've got into now.

WARK:
If Britain goes to war against Iraq and the firefighters are still on strike, do you think that the Government through the Attorney-General will be prepared to put an injunction in place to get them back to work?

RAYNSFORD:
I have no doubt the Attorney-General, who has considered this very carefully, will want to review the evidence and take a decision in light of circumstances at that time. In the meantime, we are concentrating on getting the parties back to the negotiating table because that is the way in which this dispute has to be resolved.

WARK:
Nicholas Raynsford, thank you very much indeed.

WARK:
Well, I'm joined now by John McGhee, the FBU national officer. First of all, Nicholas Raynsford said no possibility of winning in the way the executive wants. Firemen are disillusioned. You've blown it now.

JOHN MCGHEE
(Fire Brigades Union):
No, I don't think so, Kirsty. Can I pick up on something else he said? He wants to get two parties around the negotiating table. We were quite prepared to be at the negotiating table today, and the employers themselves said they didn't want to be there. Now, we have been asked not to take strike action whilst negotiating, but we simply ask the employers and the Government not to take action and negotiate properly. Mr Raynsford briefed chief officers last week, we know that, to go forward and drive ahead with those changes within the Bain review. While we're supposed to negotiate, they're driving ahead with the Bain agenda, which is 2% job losses year on year for the next four years.

WARK:
You won't get a settlement for you that's honourable anymore, are you? You're in a situation where your hand is much weaker by the announcement that John Prescott, of all people, is prepared to come down hard on you.

MCGHEE:
No, I think that's been a huge mistake of the Government today, because we have always sought to resolve this dispute through negotiations. Those negotiations must be free.

WARK:
You went ahead with a 48-hour strike when we didn't think you'd do that.

MCGHEE:
I don't know what led you to believe we weren't. We notified the employers we would be taking that strike action. We asked them to come to the negotiating table with a level playing field, with no preconditions. John Prescott said himself today that both sides had been invited to the table with nothing ruled in and nothing ruled out. He then went on to say in his own statement, Kirsty, that their only agenda was the Bain agenda. Where was the free hand there?

WARK:
I want the clarify one point. Can you be totally convinced that one, you've got 99% of firefighters behind you, and two, that public support isn't ebbing away?

MCGHEE:
Yes, I can be very sure of that. I visited many fire stations today, Kirsty, and the picket lines. We have 100% solid strike action today. That will remain solid for the duration of this dispute. We hope there will be no more strikes. The public support has been overwhelming, trade union support has been overwhelming. That's in the form of solidarity and in terms of donations and visits.

WARK:
There is no clause in your contract which forbids you to strike. There is a clause in police officers' contracts which forbid them to strike. That might well happen to you.

MCGHEE:
We're public service workers. We haven't had to take strike action for over 25 years. There's a simple way to stop strike action ever occurring, and that would be to negotiate a proper settlement to pay. We are simply asking Mr Raynsford says we have a 40% pay claim. We have a 40% pay claim on the table. We've always said we're prepared to negotiate. We have not yet had the opportunity in this dispute to properly negotiate a settlement for our own members.

WARK:
You've been negotiating and talking to employers. You've been talking to members of the Government. Can we stick with this point that it's too late now because legislation will come forward which will impose a settlement on you. Now, if that settlement is imposed, are you going back to work?

MCGHEE:
Kirsty, the legislation that John Prescott referred to today is the very legislation that he says is outdated and, in fact, needs to be removed in order to modernise the fire service. He's going back to 1947 which allows the Secretary of State, and I think it's important to understand where what that legislation states, it allows the Secretary of State to impose conditions to recommended conditions on pay and rank, structures, but what it doesn't do is it doesn't force workers... he himself has said, "Legislation will not end this dispute." We need to negotiate a settlement.

WARK:
I need to ask you one question about the injunction. Do you fully accept that if a war occurs you may be injuncted back the work?

MCGHEE:
We may be injuncted at any point. There's an easier way to avoid that We need to have a proper negotiated settlement to this dispute. Employers have to be give an free hand by the Government and allow them to do that.

WARK:
John McGhee, thank you very much.

This transcript was produced from the teletext subtitles that are generated live for Newsnight. It has been checked against the programme as broadcast, however Newsnight can accept no responsibility for any factual inaccuracies. We will be happy to correct serious errors.