Sir Simon Rattle

For our end-of-the-year interviews we're talking to people for whom 2002 was a particularly significant year.

Our first conversation was with Simon Rattle - a man who's grown grey-haired as the most exciting young orchestral conductor of our times. He's now 47.

The Berlin baton finally passed to Sir Simon Rattle last September. His first concert as Chief Conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic orchestra, greeted by an avalanche of superlatives in the German press. He was chosen by the orchestra to lead them into the 21st century. This was a clear statement of intent. A performance that opened with a techno-inspired work by the young British composer Thomas Addis, followed by Mahler's Fifth, a dramatic illustration of Rattle's ability to jump between styles and eras.

So far, so wonderful, he says. But the man who has inherited the mantle of Karajan and Abbado, is aware of the challenge ahead. The one musical fact that really matters for this orchestra is that it's judged the best in the world.

Rattle took over at Berlin after leading the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra for 18 years. There he built his own and the orchestra's world-wide reputation.

As one of the leading English conductors of his generation he also honed his political skills. Campaigning relentlessly for more funding and a greater political commitment to the arts.

His return to the Royal Opera House to conduct Sophie's Choice marks another new departure. It's the second time he's had to tackle the moral and artistic issues raised by a performance dealing with the Holocaust. When Jeremy Paxman met him at the Royal Opera House, he asked him if there was any subject that opera couldn't tackle.

SIR SIMON RATTLE:
(Conductor)
I played with the Vienna Philharmonic in the concentration camp in Mauthausen. And we didn't know at the end of that whether this was something that we should have done. Is it possible to play music in such a place? Now, I think one has to be profoundly ambivalent. On the other hand, you have to take those central tragedies and deal with them somehow.

PAXMAN:
You were talking about some redemptive power in art or music there. And yet it's always struck me as one of the most horrifying things about the concentration camps, that many of them did have orchestras in them, made up of Jews who were about to be gassed?

RATTLE:
Yes, of course.

PAXMAN:
I mean, how do you grapple with all of that?

RATTLE:
The other horrifying thing was of course, as we played, as the time the birds sung, and the birds would have sung throughout. Surely part of the purpose of art is to make us look into the heart of darkness. We shouldn't flinch. Maybe, yes, we'll get it wrong. But, I think you have to look there. It's what the greatest art is dealing with also.

PAXMAN:
Can we talk about your experiences in Berlin. As far as I can see, I've not seen you conduct there. But from reading the reviews you've had a generally tremendously enthusiastic reception there. Is that your experience?

RATTLE:
It's been heaven. There is such a thing as a honeymoon. Even for artists. It seemed such a long time for us to wait to start the whole business, that once we got down to it we all really kind of fell at each other with a great joy. It's been a wonderful adventure.

PAXMAN:
But this is, as you say, not just another orchestra. This is an institution which occupies a very central role in German culture, and indeed in world culture. How do you assert your authority over such an institution?

RATTLE:
British sense of humour helps.

PAXMAN:
Does it?

RATTLE:
Interestingly, yes. Certainly, in years gone by, that was one thing that used to confuse the orchestra. Now, I think they realise - aah!, when Simon makes a joke, it's really serious. Sometimes there are ways of getting around problems.

PAXMAN:
Do you speak German to them?

RATTLE:
A certain amount. Certainly, there's nothing I can say to them in German that they don't all understand in English. But it's ... ..I would say it's moving from dreadful to incompetence. That's an improvement.

PAXMAN:
Is it harder to gain the respect of some national orchestras than others?

RATTLE:
I think in some countries there's a certain degree of lion taming that goes on. Berlin, is now a very, very young orchestra. Maybe average age 30, 31, many people in their early 20s. More skill collected in one orchestra than anywhere I've ever come across. More individual skill. Actually, a great deal of curiosity. If people are curious, I'm fine. If people say, "We didn't used to play this in this kind of way with Karajan", then it's harder for me. That doesn't seem to be happening.

PAXMAN:
Trying to fill the shoes occupied by someone like Karajan must concentrate the mind a bit though?

RATTLE:
They are very, very large shoes. Fortunately no-one has to fill them because, actually, the great advantage is you stand on the shoulders of these great men. And something about what they gave to the orchestra is still there. What Furtwangler gave to the orchestra before Karajan is still there. Part of the thing is to connect with that great tradition.

PAXMAN:
Is it the greatest orchestra in the world?

RATTLE:
Oh, why can't I be a proud father and say, "Yes"? But there are a number of great orchestras in the world. But it's my family, so why should I be objective?

PAXMAN:
Could London have an orchestra as accomplished as that? Is there something in our society that is inimical to the creation of that sort of musical genius?

RATTLE:
There are different types of orchestra. I mean, I would say... We have incredible white wines. They have some incredible red wines. You need both of them. Now, each country has its own way of playing.

PAXMAN:
You are incredibly scathing about the level of public funding for the arts in this country and indeed certain elements of how the Arts Council operates and so on. But how do you persuade somebody who is paying their taxes, having a struggle making ends meet, that they should spend more money, on the arts of all things?

RATTLE:
It's a very good question. The only answer I can give is that I just don't believe that the arts are a luxury, that any of the arts are a luxury. I think they need to be part of everybody's life. Everybody deserves them. The more they're part of the body politic, the less elitist they'll be. The more, there will be the possibility of people having them.

PAXMAN:
Arts funding in this country runs per head of the population, getting on for half of what it is in France or Holland, for example.

RATTLE:
Munich every year spends more on the arts than Great Britain. We could do better. But it's not only funding. I'm sure it's also to do with a sense of the worth of it.

PAXMAN:
What do you mean?

RATTLE:
I think, if politically it was somewhere on the radar, instead of - off the agenda, I think gradually also that would help.

PAXMAN:
Yet, the visual arts in this country you could argue flourish despite what are, by comparison to other European countries, pretty niggly levels of funding. So the argument about subsidy doesn't entirely work, does it?

RATTLE:
Well, it doesn't, except that obviously the visual arts are a matter of one person creating one thing at a time. Some of the bigger things, the theatre companies, opera companies, orchestras they are just simply less cost effective. If we were always going on the economic model, it would be a group of five musicians in a stadium rather than an orchestra of 100, with 2,000 people in the audience.

PAXMAN:
There is no way, in your judgement, that that sort of music-making can be made commercially viable?

RATTLE:
It depends what's commercially viable. We always need room - we always need room to explore. Some wonderful things are expensive, and time-consuming. Just as some wonderful things take time to understand. Yeah, I wish it was easier. I wish it was cheaper, surely.

PAXMAN:
Thank you very much.

This transcript was produced from the teletext subtitles that are generated live for Newsnight. It has been checked against the programme as broadcast, however Newsnight can accept no responsibility for any factual inaccuracies. We will be happy to correct serious errors.