Transport Policy

Internationally, it will be the decision to build a tunnel to take the main road away from Stonehenge which will get the headlines.

But for the untold masses of people in this country who have discovered that a twenty-first century transport system means spending half your life sitting in a traffic jam or on a broken-down train, it will be the hope that, perhaps, the decisions will make travelling slightly less of an ordeal.

Spending money building new lanes on roads is a policy somersault. When Jeremy Paxman met the Transport Secretary he asked him a simple question. Did he want to reduce the level of road traffic?

ALISTAIR DARLING:
(Transport Secretary)
My objective is to tackle congestion. When people say do you want to reduce the level of road traffic, the difficulty I have is, if you have a growing economy and more people in work, then people will want to move around more. My approach is this.

PAXMAN:
That was something you didn't envisage in 1997?

DARLING:
Of course it was. Our policy since 1997...

PAXMAN:
The policy in 1997 was to reduce road traffic.

DARLING:
There's two strands to our policy, from the start, one to tackle congestion. The other was, where people could use public transport, particularly in our towns and cities, we ought to encourage them to do that. That is something we've been pursuing for the last five years.

PAXMAN:
But John Prescott said, "I will have failed if in five years' time - speaking in 1997 - there are not many more people using public transport and far fewer journeys by car." Given that since then journeys by car have gone up by nearly 5%, he did fail, didn't he?

DARLING:
And also... but there's many more people using public transport - 25% more.

PAXMAN:
He said "far fewer" journeys by car. So, in his own terms he failed.

DARLING:
I know what he said. What I've said on numerous occasions since I got this job is that we can discuss till we're blue in the face what John said. What is important is that we build a transport infrastructure that supports the fact we've got a growing economy - there are more people moving around, that means putting more money into public transport as well as investing in roads.

PAXMAN:
But to be clear about this. In 1997, unless secretly John Prescott believed that Gordon Brown was going to make a complete hash of the economy, he knew the economy was going to grow with more people in work, yet he still wanted to reduce the number of journeys by car. You don't want that?

DARLING:
John wanted to get people into public transport. He said that for many, many years over his career.

PAXMAN:
And out of their cars?

DARLING:
I want people to use buses, I want people to use trains, I want people to use metros, which is why I've put more money into it. But let me take this point head on. It can not be the Government's strategy that you keep people locked up in their homes. A successful economy where people are better off means people move around.

PAXMAN:
The prediction from your department is that traffic will grow on the roads by 20-29% by 2010? Now, do you plan to meet that?

DARLING:
What's clear is the level of congestion on our roads two years ago, when the 10-year plan was published, were much higher then than I think anyone imagined, because of the work done subsequently. What that means is that as we work towards the review of the 10-year plan, which I have said before we're going to do in time for the next spending review in 2004, we'll have to do more to accommodate the fact that, with a growing economy, more people moving around, we invest in public transport, in trains as well as making sure that we improve the road network.

PAXMAN:
Didn't you plan for a growing economy?

DARLING:
Of course, we've been planning for a growing economy.

PAXMAN:
Then how was it, when you coined this 10-year plan only two years ago, you wanted to achieve a 5% reduction in road travel?

DARLING:
Because, as I've just said, I don't think that at the time the 10-year plan was drawn up that people realised just how much congestion.

PAXMAN:
It's only two years ago!

DARLING:
Remember, nobody in this country tried to measure congestion on our roads until we did it two years ago. You can say, wouldn't it have been nice if they had? Wouldn't it have been nice if we knew the exact figure?

PAXMAN:
It's not about being nice, it's a question of intelligence, isn't it?

DARLING:
Jeremy, all I can do is present you with the facts. The facts as I see them are these: the amount of congestion that people thought [was] on the road two years ago, I think was higher than they realised. Also, I don't think that people had fully factored in that because the economy has been growing so strongly, and over such a long period, that the pressures would be increasing in the way that I think they would do. The answer to that, is not to have an inquest into why didn't you get it right, the answer is to make sure we put the right amount of money into public transport as well as the right amount of money into improving roads so you can improve journey times and deal with the causes of congestion.

PAXMAN:
You've changed the policy and you refer to congestion there. Do you now believe in congestion charges?

DARLING:
I haven't changed the policy. What I am saying to you, at the risk of repeating myself, is what I am doing is, I have a measured response, I have a balanced approach that recognises it.

PAXMAN:
You may say you haven't changed it, and let's let the viewers decide what you are saying is the same as what John Prescott was saying. Let's leave it at that. Can I ask you specifically about congestion charges? Do you now believe in them?

DARLING:
The Government made it possible for congestion charging to be introduced. Because we believe that together with other measures such as improving public transport, London and other places as well, can work. I've also said what's important is to get the detail right to make sure that the thing is set up in a way that works. To make sure the technology works. All those things are critical, unless you have a workable and deliverable plan then it will fail.

PAXMAN:
Alistair Darling, thank you.

DARLING:
Thank you.

This transcript was produced from the teletext subtitles that are generated live for Newsnight. It has been checked against the programme as broadcast, however Newsnight can accept no responsibility for any factual inaccuracies. We will be happy to correct serious errors.