Fire-Fighters Review

Sir George Bain said his report was a once in a lifetime opportunity for fundamental change in the fire service.

He criticised successive governments, the employers, fire service chiefs and the Fire Brigades Union alike and proposed a "radical programme of reform" to bring the fire service into the 21st century.

He made it clear an 11% pay rise should be contingent on reform, but FBU leaders have reacted angrily.

Kirsty Wark spoke to John McGhee, the National Officer of the Fire Brigades Union.

KIRSTY WARK:
You heard Nick Raynsford saying it was a very attractive offer indeed. Is 11%, in any circumstance, unacceptable?

JOHN McGHEE:
(National Officer, Fire Brigades' Union)
First of all, what we have been offered is 4% for this year, linked with what they call modernisation. That is completely unacceptable. We have been promised from the Deputy Prime Minister, all the way down to the national employers, a significant and substantial increase on this year's level of pay.

KIRSTY WARK:
But surely if you take the 4% with the 7%, 11% is what you're being offered? Is that unacceptable in any circumstance?

JOHN McGHEE:
If our national employers turn up at the table tomorrow with the offer of 4% for this year, added to the reforms that they call modernisation, then yes, that will be completely unacceptable to our members, who voted 91 in favour of strike action when a 4% offer was already on the table. For the national employers to come back tomorrow would be absolutely ludicrous, and clearly someone, if that is the case, is spoiling to have a fight.

KIRSTY WARK:
When I ask you about 11% you talk about 4%, but in total, quite quickly, you would be getting 11%. Is that unacceptable?

JOHN McGHEE:
First of all, it wouldn't be quite quickly. It is 4% for this year, and if the reforms that Professor Bain has suggested are implemented, in a year's time there'd be a further 7%, and yes, that is completely unacceptable.

KIRSTY WARK:
But you heard what professor Bain said, that the Fire Service is in great need of reform, the same legislation since 1947. Are you prepared to link pay with reform in any way?

JOHN McGHEE:
First of all, we have been reforming the Fire Service for 25 years, and the Fire Brigades' Union have led that. In fact, we have written a bill which has Government support for fire safety, which gives further powers to the fire service to look after our communities. We are committed to that, we are committed to community fire safety in many, many aspects. Our members carry out that work already. Professor Bain clearly has no understanding of what goes on in the Fire Service, because currently there is more than one duty system, we have more than a watch system. We have members who carry out community fire safety on a day shift basis, we have day crewed stations, we have a number of shift patterns.

KIRSTY WARK:
But what he is saying is that the watch itself is not conducive to changing the whole nature of the Fire Service. Why do you have so few women and ethnic minorities? What Professor Bain seems to be saying is the watch itself excludes exactly the kind of people that he thinks should be part of the Fire Service.

JOHN McGHEE:
I think Professor Bain really ought to do a bit more studying, and I think the fact that he has produced his report in four or five weeks indicates that. The Fire Brigades' Union have pushed the employers for a number of years to employ women.

KIRSTY WARK:
On the watch?

JOHN McGHEE:
On the watch. KISRTY WARK: With part-time and full-time together?

JOHN McGHEE:
We currently have job share facilities in the Fire Service, we have pushed for that to be further. The management say that in order to achieve the proper level of training, it would be inappropriate to have job share on operational fire fighters.

KIRSTY WARK:
Let's be quite clear, though. If the management are saying it is not a good idea for job share, are you saying the union is prepared for job share, and the union is prepared to have part-time and full-time people on the same watch?

JOHN McGHEE:
We don't have a problem with that, we have that currently at the moment in emergency fire control rooms, and we have pushed for that in the fire stations. There is absolutely no reason why that couldn't be achieved under the current systems that we have. There is no need for new shift systems, they are adequate. George Bain, interestingly, doesn't talk about the flexible duty system that our officers work. That system involves them working 76 to 78 hour as week. That is not one area that he wants to reform. To make another point, he is talking about increased numbers of women, and black and ethnic minorities in the Fire Service, yet what he is proposing in his modernisation agenda is the increase of use of overtime. It takes no rocket scientist to work out that if those members, in jobs at the moment, start working overtime, there'll be fewer people recruited, and we will never achieve the balance that is required for British Fire Service.

KIRSTY WARK:
What do you think on Wednesday, more or less likely to have a strike?

JOHN McGHEE:
I think if the employers turn up at pay talks tomorrow, simply with what is in the Bain Report, then I think it is absolutely inevitable that our members will be on strike on Wednesday at 6.00 in the evening.

This transcript was produced from the teletext subtitles that are generated live for Newsnight. It has been checked against the programme as broadcast, however Newsnight can accept no responsibility for any factual inaccuracies. We will be happy to correct serious errors.