Harold Pinter

Fans of the writings of Harold Pinter are in for a treat. The BBC is putting on over twenty productions by or about him.

As well as being one of the most highly regarded playwrights of postwar Britain, Harold Pinter is also one of the luminaries of the British Left.

Jeremy Paxman spoke to Harold Pinter and began by asking him whether his experience of cancer has changed the way he looks at life.

JEREMY PAXMAN:
I spoke to Harold Pinter earlier and began by asking him whether his experience of cancer has changed the way he looks at life.

HAROLD PINTER:
(Playwright, Actor and Campaigner)
Well, it was my first close encounter with death, so it has, although it's rather difficult to define. I just know I am quite categorically glad to be alive.

PAXMAN:
Has it changed you, made you think differently about religion, for example?

PINTER:
No. It's made me think differently about surgeons. Because I had clearly and evidently a brilliant surgeon. I don't know how he did it, but I'm lost in admiration for him.

PAXMAN:
But it's not made you think differently about death or whether anything happens after death or...?

PINTER:
Well, although I say no, the odd thing is I wrote a poem recently which was published in the Guardian, called 'Meeting'. It was about the long dead meeting the new dead, after death, and their embrace. It just came to me and I just wrote it, which is a rather odd thing, because normally in daylight I don't think that such a thing is possible. But while writing this poem I was clearly imagining such a case, the mystery of after death. The other thing is that my mother-in-law died only the night before last. We were there with her. And she was clearly determined to meet her husband who's been dead about a year. So there is a slight contradiction in my own thinking about it, but I can't really make any further assertion.

PAXMAN:
What about the effect that that experience of possible imminent mortality has upon the way that you view your own life? In other words, what you ought to do in it?

PINTER:
Well, I must say I keep on my toes and keep my critical intelligence alive and be as kind as possible to anyone in sight, really. I have to just add that you're quite right to draw my attention to this, because I am 72. I was 72 last week and I realise that although I've escaped death this time, it's on its way. And I probably have less than ten years to live, you can never tell. And that is quite a cold thought.

PAXMAN:
I read somewhere that you said that the experience had made you into more of a spectator than being at the centre of the maelstrom.

PINTER:
Yes.

PAXMAN:
What do you mean by that?

PINTER:
I meant that I was able to take a more objective view, I think that's what I meant by it, of the world around me. Which doesn't affect the fact that I still feel passionately about a number of aspects of the world around me and I'm very much engaged with what happens in the world around me. Nevertheless at the same time, I can stand back a bit and see it more clearly.

PAXMAN:
Has it made you less angry?

PINTER:
No.

PAXMAN:
What makes you angry at present?

PINTER:
Well what do you think? American foreign policy and our subservience to it, this Government. That's a cause of not only anger, but shame and disgust, actually on the part of it being British.

PAXMAN:
You're ashamed?

PINTER:
Yes, I'm ashamed of the posture this country is taking towards the United States.

PAXMAN:
But you don't deny Saddam Hussein, for example, is a bad man?

PINTER:
No, I don't.

PAXMAN:
You have a history of opposing fascism. The man is clearly some sort of fascist.

PINTER:
Yes, but, they've already been bombing Saddam Hussein and using sanctions for well over ten years now. They've killed thousands of Iraqi children and people. In the Gulf War they used depleted uranium, for example, which means that children now are being born with no eyes, no brains, sometimes no genitals and so on. These are all consequences of our actions. So when you say "Saddam Hussein - what a murderer", so are we.

PAXMAN:
But you're against sanctions, clearly.

PINTER:
Yes

PAXMAN:
If you're even against sanctions, what do you propose that we do about him?

PINTER:
You don't "do." If you want to bomb anyone you don't like in the world, there are plenty of opportunities to do so, if you are the United States, the most powerful force etc. What I'm objecting to here is the terrible hypocrisy and the use of language. When jolly old George W Bush said a little while ago, "We cannot allow the world's worst leaders to possess the world's worst weapons", my first thought was, "That's absolutely right and that's you chum. Look in the mirror". Who has more weapons of mass destruction than you've had hot dinners? Not Saddam Hussein. George Bush.

PAXMAN:
You think George Bush is worse than Saddam Hussein?

PINTER:
Oh, that's silly, sorry, Jeremy. I can't say he's worse.

PAXMAN:
But there's a sort of equivalent?

PINTER:
Yes, I would say they're on a par. Although George Bush speaks English, of a kind and he...

PAXMAN:
On the whole he doesn't go around torturing people, murdering even members of his own family?

PINTER:
Do you know there are two million people in American prisons? There's a vast gulag going on, throughout the whole of America, which is not very well publicised. Those people, some of them are criminals, others are not.

PAXMAN:
Who are these people in prison who are not criminals?

PINTER:
Minor criminals. The three trick thing.

PAXMAN:
Three strikes and you're out.

PINTER:
Yes. People are in prison for extraordinary lengths of time for doing more or less nothing. And the actual terms of their imprisonment are brutal and absolutely ruthless. Horrific, in fact.

PAXMAN:
But they have at least gone through a due legal process, been convicted by a court.

PINTER:
But the law is very oppressive.

PAXMAN:
That doesn't happen in Iraq.

PINTER:
Why do you keep talking about Saddam Hussein, anyway? There are plenty of other people in the world. There are plenty of other nuclear bombs in the world. May I just point the case of Israel. It's been said that Saddam Hussein has ignored UN resolutions, so has Israel. And we support Israel. The US supports Israel. And the injustice to the Palestinians now has become an absolute outrage. Now that's something worth talking about. We don't even know whether Saddam Hussein has any weapons or not. But we do know that Israel has, and they've used them too.

PAXMAN:
Currently all that's going on is we're trying to find out if he's got any weapons.

PINTER:
Who is this "we" you talk about?

PAXMAN:
The United States and Britain. Your leader.

PINTER:
Do they possess a moral authority? I don't believe so at all. I believe their posture is hollow and is all to do with maintaining power.

PAXMAN:
Maintaining power?

PINTER:
Power in the world. I believe that the USA is really intent upon controlling the world and the world's resources. And they're doing pretty well. If they bomb Iraq, it can only inflame a whole world of terrorism. The reaction would be severe, quite apart from the fact that it would be a humanitarian catastrophe. Secondly, it's preposterous to use the terms, "We will defeat terrorism." Never. There is no way of world terrorism being defeated by these means. The only way it can be addressed is to try to understand it and to try to take other means towards it. As I say, to use your common-or-garden intelligence, not become hysterical. There is a built-in hysteria and arrogance in the US administration which is very dangerous and damaging.

PAXMAN:
You say you are ashamed of this country's attitude towards the United States, on this matter and presumably on other matters? What are you proud of about this country? What do you like about it?

PINTER:
I love the English countryside. I love it quite positively. I'm in love with it. I also love cricket, as you know, which is a wonderful tradition. It's not, of course, simply this country that follows it. But we started it, I suppose. And I find there is a, how can I say? A fundamental decency in the country itself. And this is what concerns me, and I'm not alone in this by a long way, I think that it's being eroded. The state is becoming more and more powerful and more repressive. I find that very distressing. It's happening before our very eyes. In fact, we have very few of the facts at our disposal. Don't forget our Prime Minister hardly discusses anything with his Cabinet let alone Parliament, and certainly not with the public.

PAXMAN:
But you voted for this man.

PINTER:
I know I did and I regret it. I didn't vote last time, by the way, I voted the first time and I can't believe what I voted for. And a lot of people are in my boat, I think. That's where I feel ashamed. I mean, as a British citizen, of what has happened. So it's not a very healthy state of affairs in this country. Because the two parties, there's hardly any difference. It seems to me that New Labour is New Conservative. That's about it.

PAXMAN:
Thank you very much.

This transcript was produced from the teletext subtitles that are generated live for Newsnight. It has been checked against the programme as broadcast, however Newsnight can accept no responsibility for any factual inaccuracies. We will be happy to correct serious errors.