Firefighters' Strike

"Wrong and dangerous" was the Prime Minister's view of the firefighters plans for a series of strikes.

He admitted the army in their ancient Green Goddesses could not respond like highly trained firefighters and state of the art equipment, but the government is unmoved by the Fire Brigade Union's calls for a 40 pay rise, insisting on an Independent Review.

The Union's leader has so far refused to say what their response would be in the case of a disaster, but claim they have overwhelming public support.

So is this the start of a damaging battle between the government and public sector workers - one that could have tragic consequences.

Kirsty Wark put this to Nick Raynsford MP, the Fire Service Minister and John McGhee, the Fire Brigades Union's National Officer.

KIRSTY WARK:
We are joined by Nick Raynsford, the minister of the fire service, and John McGhee, the National officer for the FBU. Nick Raynsford, are you really saying that, if there is, for example, a school on fire and you cannot get equipment, that the Army will not cross a picket line to avert a disaster?

NICK RAYNSFORD:
No. What we are saying is that the Army will provide - not just the Army but the military generally, because there will be Navy and Air Force units as well - will provide a basic emergency cover.

WARK:
That may not be enough if you have a school on fire?

RAYNSFORD:
I fully accept that this is not the same as the full service provided by the fire service.

WARK:
In that event, if there is a school on fire, with a striking fire station, will the Army be able to cross the picket line to retrieve the equipment they need. A simple yes or no?

RAYNSFORD:
This is quite a complex and important issue. In each case, we will ensure there is a proper appraisal of the best way of dealing with that fire, and the relevant military personnel will do their best. If there is a possible risk to life, then every possible ...

WARK:
Sorry, you are just completely fudging this answer. I am not. It's a simple question. Public opinion, after all, is at stake here. If there is a fire in a school, and the Army needs to get sophisticated equipment from a fire station, will they cross a picket line if they have to?

RAYNSFORD:
They wouldn't be able to use that equipment without extensive training, and clearly it would be quite inappropriate for them to be using kit they are unfamiliar with in an emergency.

WARK:
What if they are able to use it and don't have access to it on Green Goddesses?

RAYNSFORD:
We are ensuring that the Army and the other military have got the resources available to provide the basic emergency service with back-up, breathing apparatus teams and other rescue equipment team. Secondly, we are discussing with the Fire Brigades' Union what help will be available in situations which threaten life, because under conventions that have applied in the past, unions have recognised that it's important that lives shouldn't be put at risk in these emergencies.

WARK:
John McGhee, you might have heard the fire officer saying there that they would stop Army personnel from coming across the picket line. In the same question as I put to Nick Raynsford, if there is a fire in a school and the Army need to get in to get equipment, will you release it?

JOHN McGHEE:
If the Army need equipment, they wouldn't respond in enough time to go and collect equipment and then fight a fire. If there is a fire in a school, the union members will be there within five minutes, as we stand at the moment. Clearly, the solution is to resolve the issue of pay and we won't need to talk about issues of safety and the public, calling in the armed forces and the Army, which is a completely inadequate service.

WARK:
Let me interrupt you there on the same basis. You say that at the moment firefighters will respond within five minutes to a school. I am asking the same question, then. In the event of a disaster, will firefighters go to a school if necessary, even if you won't let the Army cross a picket line? Will your members go to a school?

WARK:
When our members - it's quite simple - are out on strike, the whole chain of communication breaks down. By the time a call could be put through, members are not going to be standing outside a fire station on a 24-hour basis. In various places we will have small pickets at certain times of the strike. Clearly, it's just not a possibility - it's not a practical solution - to say that the firefighters, who are going to be on strike because the Government have forced that situation upon them - would be able to respond to any kind of emergency.

RAYNSFORD:
It's that issue that I raised with Andy Gilchrist today when I said, "Can we have an understanding of where your members will be willing to help in the event of a major catastrophe."

WARK:
You don't have a solution?

RAYNSFORD:
We asked him and he has undertaken to take this back to his executive and give us an answer later this week.

WARK:
What is the answer?

McGHEE:
The answer to that is finally the Government woke up today to a very serious national situation, where seven days before a strike is due - bear in mind we tabled a pay claim in May this year and this is the first time the Government have sought to have discussions with us was today. They wanted to talk about the issue of safety. What we really need from Mr Raynsford is to talk about the issue of pay. We will resolve the issue of safety.

WARK:
Let's resolve the issue of safety. Why not ask John McGhee again, in the event of a disaster, what happens?

RAYNSFORD:
I would sincerely hope the unions will, in line with the agreed procedures that trade unions have agreed in the past...

WARK:
He has said they can't get to a school in five minutes.

RAYNSFORD:
There needs to be a protocol which enables the relevant authority, whether the military or the fire officer, to contact them in an emergency situation and to ask their co-operation.

WARK:
That is on a piece meal basis. You don't have that agreement?

RAYNSFORD:
Not yet, but we hope the union will agree...

WARK:
Will you have that before the strike goes ahead?

RAYNSFORD:
Our executive council meet on Wednesday and we will discuss any safety protocols that may be necessary. But if we resolve the issue of pay, get round the table and talk to us about pay and we will resolve the issue about safety. We have the finest fire service in the world here in the UK. It's going to be locked out of its fire stations because this Government want to talk about the issue of safety.

WARK:
On the issue of pay, you have to wait but six weeks to have some kind of resolution of pay with the review by Sir George Bain. We know that firefighters, who have voted for a strike, are prepared to wait for that review. Why won't you?

McGHEE:
No. Firefighters have voted in favour of the strike action knowing that the review was going ahead.

WARK:
Some are prepared to wait.

McGHEE:
This independent review has already decided that the Fire Brigades' Union will not get what they are looking for.

WARK:
How do you know that?

McGHEE:
Because the Deputy Prime Minister, the Prime Minister, you have heard them saying it is completely unacceptable to think that any group of workers could be given the wage rise we are asking.

WARK:
You don't think that Sir George Bain - who has conducted many reviews, under the auspices of the TUC?

McGHEE:
It is not under the auspices of the TUC. The TUC is supporting the Fire Brigades' Union. They did so at their Congress. Sir Tony Young, who is on this team, was not even a TUC nomination. The Fire Brigades' Union weren't consulted about who would be on that review panel.

RAYNSFORD:
This is a tragic situation.

WARK:
You shake your head...

RAYNSFORD:
We have here an independent review headed by one of the most eminent people in the country, in this field. Accompanied by the former past president of the TUC, and the union are refusing to put their case to this review. What have they got to be frightened of? Why can't they put their case?

WARK:
You say it's an independent review. Is it entirely helpful for the Prime Minister to come out and say categorically that, even if the review suggests that the firefighters are worth 40%, they would not get that? Do you think that was helpful?

RAYNSFORD:
I thought the Prime Minister was making a very fair point that the claim of the scale would be likely to trigger hugely inflationary wage claims from a very large number of others, which would be desperately damaging to our economy.

WARK:
If Sir George said that firefighters were worth 39%, you are not talking about the firefighters but the wider economy?

RAYNSFORD:
I have already said that we will look at the recommendations from that review. We set up this review confident that these are distinguished people with great experience, and we value their judgement. I am only sorry that the FBU aren't prepared to put the effort into this review.

WARK:
Are you prepared to take the Government all the way on this?

McGHEE:
Our members have voted 87% in favour of strike because they believe that £8.50 is not an unreasonable wage for a firefighter in this day and age.

WARK:
John McGhee, nobody doubts firefighters' dedication to their jobs, but the first time there is a fire in a high-rise block and Green Goddesses haven't a hope to get anything near that fire, surely public opinion will turn very quickly?

McGHEE:
I don't think so, because I think the public recognise that we have made a sound and just claim. You have just heard the minister himself saying that, even if that review that he is so keen for us to get involved in recommended a wage rise of 40%, or perhaps even more, there is no guarantee that that would even be funded.

WARK:
Is this a priority for the Government?

RAYNSFORD:
This is an absolute priority for the Government.

WARK:
In that case, why isn't there a Cabinet minister coming out and doing interviews and talking about this?

RAYNSFORD:
John Prescott and I talk every day frequently about this.

WARK:
Why is it not a Cabinet minister rank here?

RAYNSFORD:
I have been involved in detailed discussions including the meeting with Andy Gilchrist this afternoon. We are desperately keen to get a proper, intelligent resolution to this. There is an independent review able to consider all the issues. Why can't the FBU talk to this review and not put people's lives at risk by striking unnecessarily?

This transcript was produced from the teletext subtitles that are generated live for Newsnight. It has been checked against the programme as broadcast, however Newsnight can accept no responsibility for any factual inaccuracies. We will be happy to correct serious errors.