Sir William Stubbs

The Tomlinson inquiry into this summer's A level fiasco produced its findings - its head declaring nobody had behaved improperly but that the system itself was to blame.

The Education Secretary begged to differ, an hour later she sacked the exams regulator, Sir William Stubbs.

Mark Urban spoke to Sir William Stubbs and asked him how exactly Estelle Morris dismissed him.

SIR WILLIAM STUBBS:
She said to me that there was a lack of confidence between the exam bodies and the QCA and that there was a risk of drifting uncertainty unless she did something. She believed that it was necessary for me to depart from the QCA. I could either resign or she would dismiss me. If I resigned, she would say some kind things about me and if I didn't resign she would issue a statement. That shocked me. The report had vindicated what I'd done. The role of the regulator is not an easy one. I behaved with due propriety. She was persistent in her view and I reminded her there was no evidence to justify that. However, I then went away, back to QCA to reflect on that. It quickly became clear to me that if I did not do something, there was a risk that the controversy would be prolonged so I wrote a letter of resignation.

MARK URBAN:
Mike Tomlinson said today that the situation an accident waiting to happen. Do you agree with that?

SIR WILLIAM STUBBS:
Well, I would not have used Mike's phrase there. It is not a phrase he used in his measured report. But there is no doubt that the new examination system was introduced on a timetable that was of political choosing, not of administrative choosing. Our advice to the department or us was it needed a longer time. Most people who knew about that matter said that. We also said you shouldn't discontinue the old legacy A- levels; let them run along concurrently I and then when the new one is established you can phase the old one out. But the Government was determined that the old one should go and introduce the new one on a timetable that we all thought was very demanding.

MARK URBAN:
Mike Tomlinson did say that no-one behaved improperly. Did you really think that once you attacked the education secretary, accused her of exerting improper influence on this, that you could really get away with it, that there wouldn't be a price to pay: either she would have to go or you would have to go?

SIR WILLIAM STUBBS:
I don't see it in those terms at all. As far as the inquiry into the standards are concerned, my prime objective was to ensure that that was carried out fairly and independently. From the time it was called, I insisted that I would not meet a member of the QCA staff on my own, in case I was pressuring them when they would give evidence. I wanted a witness present. We didn't talk to the exam board chief executives other than to call for information we needed for the inquiry. I was therefore flabbergasted when I found out that the Secretary of State, who herself was part of the inquiry, intervened in the way she did.

MARK URBAN:
Once you attacted her influence like that it would have been difficult to work with her again. That's what she said this afternoon at her press conference.

SIR WILLIAM STUBBS:
If that is her judgment, then that is her judgment. I told her in the middle of the day that I am perfectly pleased to work with her and her officials. I saw no difficulty in that. If for whatever reason she finds it impossible to do, as she said, then so be it, that is her perception.

MARK URBAN:
Do you think you have badly treated in this?

SIR WILLIAM STUBBS:
Well, I think when one effectively shoots he referee, then it is not very good for the health of the game. The regulator is in a very difficult position. I called it right. Mike Tomlinson said I called it right. Under those circumstances for the Secretary of State to then say she is going to dismiss me, I think that raises doubts about the quality of public life in this country. One should abide by high standards and integrity. I've done that. That's not satisfactory. I think that that is a problem.

This transcript was produced from the teletext subtitles that are generated live for Newsnight. It has been checked against the programme as broadcast, however Newsnight can accept no responsibility for any factual inaccuracies. We will be happy to correct serious errors.